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If you don't have anything to hide...

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
We hear all the time from the rabid right wing that "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."

Unless of course you truly to have nothing to hide, but it doesn't matter anyway because they're just thinking of the children.

Accused "pedophile" found not guilty, life destroyed anyway

This is in the UK, but it applies equally here in the US. How do the authoritarians answer this one? Is it OK to destroy this man's life?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
345
126
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices, just as we all know some innocent people go to jail because to prevent that would require convicting almost no one; or that you can't make too big a deal out of the imperfections, as all systems have some flaws. They'd focus on the benefits of the law enforcement.

My own view would be pretty different.

I'd assign blame to:

- Society for not better understanding and having appropriate policies for pedophiles
- The public for a mob mentality with hunts against groups like pedophiles at times
- Politicians and police officials who exploit the public's mob mentality and do injustices for their own benefit
- The police for arresting the man too soon, before they had investigated for the possibilty of identity fraud
- The employer for not offering him work after the facts came out
- His family for not listening to his explanation and standing by him as claiming innocence, much less if he were a pedophile

It goes without saying the person who committed the fraud was quite wrong and deserves punishment, and possibly his nation's government if they don't pursue such criminals.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,732
1
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices, just as we all know some innocent people go to jail because to prevent that would require convicting almost no one; or that you can't make too big a deal out of the imperfections, as all systems have some flaws. They'd focus on the benefits of the law enforcement.

My own view would be pretty different.

I'd assign blame to:

- Society for not better understanding and having appropriate policies for pedophiles
- The public for a mob mentality with hunts against groups like pedophiles at times
- Politicians and police officials who exploit the public's mob mentality and do injustices for their own benefit
- The police for arresting the man too soon, before they had investigated for the possibility of identity fraud
- The employer for not offering him work after the facts came out
- His family for not listening to his explanation and standing by him as claiming innocence, much less if he were a pedophile

It goes without saying the person who committed the fraud was quite wrong and deserves punishment, and possibly his nation's government if they don't pursue such criminals.
you forgot the greatest offender of all....the press...they are like a rabid dog on this kind of stuff.....no names should be published or released until they are tried in a court of law.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,520
0
0
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices, just as we all know some innocent people go to jail because to prevent that would require convicting almost no one; or that you can't make too big a deal out of the imperfections, as all systems have some flaws. They'd focus on the benefits of the law enforcement.

My own view would be pretty different.

I'd assign blame to:

- Society for not better understanding and having appropriate policies for pedophiles
- The public for a mob mentality with hunts against groups like pedophiles at times
- Politicians and police officials who exploit the public's mob mentality and do injustices for their own benefit
- The police for arresting the man too soon, before they had investigated for the possibility of identity fraud
- The employer for not offering him work after the facts came out
- His family for not listening to his explanation and standing by him as claiming innocence, much less if he were a pedophile

It goes without saying the person who committed the fraud was quite wrong and deserves punishment, and possibly his nation's government if they don't pursue such criminals.
you forgot the greatest offender of all....the press...they are like a rabid dog on this kind of stuff.....no names should be published or released until they are tried in a court of law.
The press certainly doesn't help, but they are just acting like good capitalists...giving the people what they want. We can complain about the government and the press and the police all we want, but at the end of the day, it's not like some Batman villian is behind the mess. The real culprit is the public, composed chiefly of people way too stupid to take a reasonable approach to ANYTHING that is even remotely manipulative.

The rabid press and aggressive government would stop their BS instantly if it meant fewer readers and lost votes. But the average Joe Dumbass eats this stuff up like crazy, even while he's bitching about how rabid the press is or how bad "big government" is getting.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,034
1
61
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices
It is ironic you of all people say that.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,100
8,527
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Exterous
Innocent until proven guilty does not always seem to work.
It was intended that way.
Better to let a guilty man go free than falsely accuse an innocent man.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices
It is ironic you of all people say that.
LOL
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
345
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices
It is ironic you of all people say that.
LOL
Bamacre, you show with the foolish comment you are not capable of the discussion the topic warrants. You can take your hyena, too.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,073
383
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices
It is ironic you of all people say that.
LOL
Bamacre, you show with the foolish comment you are not capable of the discussion the topic warrants. You can take your hyena, too.
Craig, you are one of the biggest authoritarians on this board.
 

Mean MrMustard

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2001
3,144
10
81
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices
It is ironic you of all people say that.
LOL
Bamacre, you show with the foolish comment you are not capable of the discussion the topic warrants. You can take your hyena, too.
Craig, you are one of the biggest authoritarians on this board.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,652
199
101
The problem I see with this is that the cops went after this guy without even doing a minimum review of the evidence to see if he could be implicated. A simple review of the IP address used would have immediately told them he didn't enter the CC info himself, so they should do further investigation before going after him.

I'm all for coming down like a ton of bricks on the sickos that engage in this kind of stuff, but we have to be more careful to avoid the bricks coming down on innocent people.
 

bbdub333

Senior member
Aug 21, 2007
686
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices
It is ironic you of all people say that.
LOL
Bamacre, you show with the foolish comment you are not capable of the discussion the topic warrants. You can take your hyena, too.
No, I think most people agree with him.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
23,003
770
126
The Authoritarian Bushbots would say something like "You gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelet"
 

TallPilot

Member
Sep 25, 2007
40
0
0
The police were very negligent in their investigation, they all need to be in prison for a very long time.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ore

So what's the sugestion here from the left-wingers/anti-authoritarians? Should we let hundreds and hundreds of pedophile perverts roam free because there's a chance soemone might be improperly arrested and charged in the process?

Was this guy subsequently convicted and imprisoned? No. Did it screw up his life in the interim? Yes. Does he have a remedy? Sure does. He can sue the crap out of the "large online retailer" that somehow allowed his credit information to be stolen, and I hope he gets millions in the process. imo, he should also be able to sue the investigators involved in Operation Ore since a little due diligence should have uncovered that this man could not have possibly been involved.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: Donny Baker
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
The authoritarians probably answer it with either a claim that sometimes, serving a larger need can have some smaller injustices
It is ironic you of all people say that.
LOL
Bamacre, you show with the foolish comment you are not capable of the discussion the topic warrants. You can take your hyena, too.
Craig, you are one of the biggest authoritarians on this board.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
100% true. Some people don't seem to think it's authoritarianism if that boot stamping your face gives you free health care to stitch it back up.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,760
11
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Exterous
Innocent until proven guilty does not always seem to work.
It was intended that way.
Better to let a guilty man go free than falsely convict an innocent man.
Fixed?

The standard for criminal conviction is generally "beyond a reasonable doubt", but the standard for criminal indictment (which traditionally begins the formal investigative process) is much lower, and I have no real problem with that. But yes, I do acknowledge that to be even falsely accused of things like child molestation and other heinous crimes is almost as bad as a conviction in the public's eyes, regardless if the person is later exonerated.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,884
4,840
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ore

So what's the sugestion here from the left-wingers/anti-authoritarians? Should we let hundreds and hundreds of pedophile perverts roam free because there's a chance soemone might be improperly arrested and charged in the process?

Was this guy subsequently convicted and imprisoned? No. Did it screw up his life in the interim? Yes. Does he have a remedy? Sure does. He can sue the crap out of the "large online retailer" that somehow allowed his credit information to be stolen, and I hope he gets millions in the process. imo, he should also be able to sue the investigators involved in Operation Ore since a little due diligence should have uncovered that this man could not have possibly been involved.
If you are going to destroy someone's life over looking at bad pictures, you better have more evidence than someone using their credit card number on a website.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,976
3,479
126
People fit to be among society should not be given scarlet letters. Yet that isn?t really what happened here. Government made a mistake, now the question is how do they make up for it when the minds of society are made up against the accused?

Perhaps we need an official government website where those cleared have an official apology they can show to others in addition to being mailed such a letter. Popular use of such documentation might provide a more common acceptance and forgiveness to those who are branded.

I don?t think it?s up to the government to not accuse anyone for fear of repercussion. It is up to society not to be bigots against the accused. My ?solution? hardly solves this problem, but maybe an official government accusation of innocence can counter some of that bigotry.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ore

So what's the sugestion here from the left-wingers/anti-authoritarians? Should we let hundreds and hundreds of pedophile perverts roam free because there's a chance soemone might be improperly arrested and charged in the process?

Was this guy subsequently convicted and imprisoned? No. Did it screw up his life in the interim? Yes. Does he have a remedy? Sure does. He can sue the crap out of the "large online retailer" that somehow allowed his credit information to be stolen, and I hope he gets millions in the process. imo, he should also be able to sue the investigators involved in Operation Ore since a little due diligence should have uncovered that this man could not have possibly been involved.
If you are going to destroy someone's life over looking at bad pictures, you better have more evidence than someone using their credit card number on a website.
They didn't destroy his life. They definitely caused him some pain for some years, but his life isn't destroyed by any means. Like I said, he has a remedy for all that pain too. No doubt a few millions pounds in recompense will do quite a bit to sooth that pain.

The investigators should also have considered the possibility of credit card fraud entering into the equation. A detailed look at the credit card bill should have demonstrated the discrepancy. They didn't pay attention which I why I feel they should be liable for damages as well. It's all part of that system of legal checks and balances.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,926
18
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ore

So what's the sugestion here from the left-wingers/anti-authoritarians? Should we let hundreds and hundreds of pedophile perverts roam free because there's a chance soemone might be improperly arrested and charged in the process?

Was this guy subsequently convicted and imprisoned? No. Did it screw up his life in the interim? Yes. Does he have a remedy? Sure does. He can sue the crap out of the "large online retailer" that somehow allowed his credit information to be stolen, and I hope he gets millions in the process. imo, he should also be able to sue the investigators involved in Operation Ore since a little due diligence should have uncovered that this man could not have possibly been involved.
If you are going to destroy someone's life over looking at bad pictures, you better have more evidence than someone using their credit card number on a website.
They didn't destroy his life. They definitely caused him some pain for some years, but his life isn't destroyed by any means. Like I said, he has a remedy for all that pain too. No doubt a few millions pounds in recompense will do quite a bit to sooth that pain.

The investigators should also have considered the possibility of credit card fraud entering into the equation. A detailed look at the credit card bill should have demonstrated the discrepancy. They didn't pay attention which I why I feel they should be liable for damages as well. It's all part of that system of legal checks and balances.
Um, his family disowned him. They've "reconciled" but that's not something you forgive and forget. Forget his quote about not bearing grudges that he played for the papers, saying anything else would be un-pc. That scar will be there till he dies. No amount of $ will erase that. At least his wife stood by him, so his marriage is probably all the stronger for it.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,884
4,840
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ore

So what's the sugestion here from the left-wingers/anti-authoritarians? Should we let hundreds and hundreds of pedophile perverts roam free because there's a chance soemone might be improperly arrested and charged in the process?

Was this guy subsequently convicted and imprisoned? No. Did it screw up his life in the interim? Yes. Does he have a remedy? Sure does. He can sue the crap out of the "large online retailer" that somehow allowed his credit information to be stolen, and I hope he gets millions in the process. imo, he should also be able to sue the investigators involved in Operation Ore since a little due diligence should have uncovered that this man could not have possibly been involved.
If you are going to destroy someone's life over looking at bad pictures, you better have more evidence than someone using their credit card number on a website.
They didn't destroy his life. They definitely caused him some pain for some years, but his life isn't destroyed by any means. Like I said, he has a remedy for all that pain too. No doubt a few millions pounds in recompense will do quite a bit to sooth that pain.

The investigators should also have considered the possibility of credit card fraud entering into the equation. A detailed look at the credit card bill should have demonstrated the discrepancy. They didn't pay attention which I why I feel they should be liable for damages as well. It's all part of that system of legal checks and balances.
They were going to destroy his life based on this "evidence." They thought it was sufficient to label him a child molester. Just because he was able to defend himself, doesn't excuse their behavior and the damage they did.
 

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