If you can't measure it, it's not a requirement!

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
So, what's the back story? You're supposed to design a software package, write a business strategy, write a performance metric or algorithm? What you posted, without a framework or overview, signifies nothing. I like waffles.

Some of us have to rant without context because otherwise we subject ourselves to more professional identification than we want associated to our usernames.

I don't care what he does or where he does it, I'm just curious what he's supposed to do with the corporate speak crap.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
So, what's the back story? You're supposed to design a software package, write a business strategy, write a performance metric or algorithm? What you posted, without a framework or overview, signifies nothing. I like waffles.

I am a functional consultant for a large HR system's Performance Mangement module. I create functional design documentation for any customizations necessary to the system to meet a client's needs as well as configuring the standard as-delivered system to suit needs where possible.

I also provide process advice based on my experiences implementing Performance Management systems at other companies throughout the country.

I like waffles too.

ZV

I inferred your area of responsibility from the first post. What I'm still confused about is what the company expects you to do with this wish list. Are you to tell them how to measure these criteria? Are you to provide a system for how they will measure performance (i.e. write an algorithm)? Are you to create a interface that will allow the HR folks to track this? Are you giving advice on how to weight the various components regarding performance? All of the above? There are WAY too many unknowns for any decisive improvement, if that's the case. Hand it back to them and tell them you don't do magic.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
This one is for free, but generally I would charge 250 an hour for it.

Translation: You bill out for less than I do.

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

Drives a performance culture based upon accountability at all levels in the organization.

(What the fvck does this mean? How is it measured? What defines a "performance culture"? For what are "all levels" accountable?)

The psycho-sociological measures of 'accountability' and 'performance' within culture are many fold. Implementation through constant cost-benefit analysis is one option, another is to study the social dynamics you are trying to put your system into and figure out what and where changes need to be made.

You're best outsourcing the integration of your cost-benefit analysis numbers and the present social situation to an industrial psychologist or a PHD in organizational behavior from your local university.

It is not my job to define the client's process. I do not have the authority to make unilateral decisions about what the client's process should be, nor do I want it. Business decisions are the sole responsibility of the client. I am a software consultant, not a management consultant.

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

- Has integrity and is perceived to be fairly and equitably administered; ensures calibration of ratings application within and across groups.

(Define "integrity". How on earth can any system anywhere ever hope to control the perceptions of all users? How are perceptions measured? Since calibration is an offline process performed by managers in closed-door sessions, how can the system possibly ensure that this happens correctly?)

You need to measure the perception of integrity among those who are your end users. There is a great deal of literature both researcher and practitioner based for this. You then need to implement an interface and create procedures that take into account the ethical nature of your people.

how Machiavellian are they? how deontological/teleological are they? etc.

Once again, it is impossible for any system to control anything that, by definition, occurs outside that system. Calibration occurs outside of the system I am implementing. There is no way in heaven or on earth to make the system ensure any aspect of an offline process.

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

- Captures an individual's performance contribution, such that performance is clearly differentiated using agreed guidelines for performance distribution and a value can be placed on it so that it can be translated into an individual reward via separate compensation processes.

(Translation: Is scored numerically. Also, managers perform the scoring, not the system, so it is the managers' responsibility to ensure appropriate distribution of scores, not the system's.)

But it is the system's job to implement an unbiased scoring system. You need to read up on human-resources literature and find out what systems of review are and are not social and cultural bias. You also need to know what the effective and efficient measures for performance are.

this one needs someone from the university that is a specialist in human-resources and compensation.

I am not designing a new process. Merely tweaking the current process to work within the restrictions imposed by a systematized tool. I have no authority to make changes to form verbiage. Once again, you misunderstand my role.

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

Measures an individual's performance separate and apart from company performance, yet tightly aligns individual performance objectives to company strategy, such that the aggregate company performance results would naturally correlate with the aggregate individual performance distribution.

(Separate and apart?)

It's called Orwellian double speak

aggregate individual performance will always correlate with company performance; whether negative or positive, there will always be at least some correlation.

But the requirement is that the system not be based on company performance, not that you remove all impact on company performance from the assessment

What you mean is that you want aggregate individual performance to be positively correlated with company performance. Of course, we're still missing any measurable means to determine whether this criterion has been met.)

Again, if you lack the ability to measure this then you should figure it out. I assure you that just because you don't know how to measure something does not mean that it can not be measured. There is empirical work done in the field all the time.

Again, you clearly do not understand what my role actually is. You also misread the requirement. The system measures both company and individual performance. Once again, any business process decision (e.g. the precise amount of positive correlation desired and the method for measuring that correlation) is outside of my authority.

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

- Incorporates the results an individual achieves (the "what") and the value-based behavioral actions that the individual takes (the "how") into the individual's overall performance assessment.

(Translation: Allows evaluation of an employee's behavior as well as his or her results. Still doesn't provide a model for doing this. How should it incorporate behavioral evaluation? A numeric rating? A percentage modifier? A free-text field?)

as both a computer-guy and a business researcher I have to tell you this: if you can't figure out how to implement the present state of human resource research in a computer based interface then you need to not take contracts that involve the topic.

*sigh* Again: It is not my job to determine company policy. I do not have carte blanche to design any aspect of the tool. My job is to gather the current system design and incorporate that design within an existing Performance Management module. Where there are gaps, I develop functional requirements for programmers to enhance the module to suit client needs. Where client needs can be met with standard functionality, I configure the module to meet those requirements.

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
would you implement an accounting system without knowing anything about accounting? would it make sense to be given an accounting system project and then complain about how you don't know how to measure FIFO or WIP?

same thing here, you need some specialized knowledge in order to bring your own computer-based specialized knowledge into the work place.

If I had carte blanche, I could have the system done in a month. Performance Management is my niche; my specialization. I have done four other implementations in the past year and all went smoothly.

The issue currently is that I am constrained by the client's policies and am explicitly prohibited from exerting any control over the process. In fact, on my first day I was explicitly told that consultants are not permitted to talk during meetings except to answer questions specifically addressed to them.

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
if nothing else do not get specification documents, do specification interviews.

I am aware of my next steps, thank you.

ZV

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Oh, yeah, Pointy Haired Boss also said he told them you could have it done next month, and under budget.

Yeah, I work with one of those. I'm looking for outs.

 

[BoberFett]

Hahahahaha. I love it when people try to sound like they know what they're talking about. The management speak in that "design" document are laughable.

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: Tea Bag
BILLY MAYS HERE WITH BULLSHIT UN-QUANTIFIABLE REQUIREMENTS! DO YOU HATE JUMPING THROUGH HOOPS ADHERING TO STANDARDS THAT ARE OUTDATED AND USED IN A LAME ATTEMPT TO GRADE YOUR PERFORMANCE? WELL I'VE GOT THE SOLUTION FOR YOU - MENTALLY CHECK OUT OF YOUR JOB! ACT NOW AND I'LL THROW IN THIS WEBBROWSER THAT YOU CAN USE TO ASSIST YOU IN PHONING IN THE REST OF YOUR CAREER! THAT'S THE POWER OF THE INTERNET!

:laugh:

 

[JohnCU]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: Tea Bag
BILLY MAYS HERE WITH BULLSHIT UN-QUANTIFIABLE REQUIREMENTS! DO YOU HATE JUMPING THROUGH HOOPS ADHERING TO STANDARDS THAT ARE OUTDATED AND USED IN A LAME ATTEMPT TO GRADE YOUR PERFORMANCE? WELL I'VE GOT THE SOLUTION FOR YOU - MENTALLY CHECK OUT OF YOUR JOB! ACT NOW AND I'LL THROW IN THIS WEBBROWSER THAT YOU CAN USE TO ASSIST YOU IN PHONING IN THE REST OF YOUR CAREER! THAT'S THE POWER OF THE INTERNET!

:laugh:

win

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

ZV, I feel your frustration. I recommend expressing it to the project leader and tell him you do not understand how to give the client what they want without the ability to ask questions and interact with the policy makers. I know first hand that it is extremely aggravating to be involved with a project in an area you feel knowledgeable about and are passionate about only to be hamstrung by policy. If you cannot convince the powers that be then, you need to realize the failure is not yours. Sometimes, you have to know when to walk away.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
If I had carte blanche, I could have the system done in a month. Performance Management is my niche; my specialization. I have done four other implementations in the past year and all went smoothly.

ZV

At least you work with people who understand the need for measuring performance. I can't even convince my company that we need any kind of project/change/document management system. I then meet with the same people who can't figure out why nothing ever gets done on time, within budget, and why we're hemorrhaging money.

/facepalm

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
If I had carte blanche, I could have the system done in a month. Performance Management is my niche; my specialization. I have done four other implementations in the past year and all went smoothly.

ZV

At least you work with people who understand the need for measuring performance. I can't even convince my company that we need any kind of project/change/document management system. I then meet with the same people who can't figure out why nothing ever gets done on time, within budget, and why we're hemorrhaging money.

/facepalm

You don't get it. Corporations don't actually care about measuring performance, they only care about talking about measuring performance. This justifies the continued flow of bonuses from grateful management who have a vested interest in not being held to any specific standard.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
If I had carte blanche, I could have the system done in a month. Performance Management is my niche; my specialization. I have done four other implementations in the past year and all went smoothly.

ZV

At least you work with people who understand the need for measuring performance. I can't even convince my company that we need any kind of project/change/document management system. I then meet with the same people who can't figure out why nothing ever gets done on time, within budget, and why we're hemorrhaging money.

/facepalm

You don't get it. Corporations don't actually care about measuring performance, they only care about talking about measuring performance. This justifies the continued flow of bonuses from grateful management who have a vested interest in not being held to any specific standard.

Winner!

The endgame of a performance management process is to allow a company to create a documentation trail of either good or bad performance so that they can justify the bonuses (or lack thereof) paid to certain employees. Yes, I know this makes me cynical, but so far I have never once seen an instance where a manager didn't go into the process already knowing what sort of bonus he or she wanted to give to the employee in question.

As for me, I'm not terribly worried. I've got my own ass covered and one way or the other we'll get something implemented that works for the client. I'll never work for this client again (by my own choice), and I'll caution anyone I know to avoid them as well, but in the end I'll come out of this OK.

ZV

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Again, you clearly do not understand what my role actually is. .

Then you took a job that has little to do with what they want you to do.

They got an architect when what they wanted was a home builder.

If you are getting specs like the one you posted then you've got problems letting your client know the limitations of your capabilities.

From your response I take it that you do know that the things you said "are unmeasurable" are in-fact measurable. It's simply they refuse to let you measure and implement what was requested.

So a better metaphor is: they got an architect when what they ordered was a home builder and then when the architect turned out to be an expert home builder they said "sorry, we won't let you survey the land"

The issue currently is that I am constrained by the client's policies and am explicitly prohibited from exerting any control over the process. In fact, on my first day I was explicitly told that consultants are not permitted to talk during meetings except to answer questions specifically addressed to them.

ha! I'd charge more than 250 an hour to work in that kind of environment to! Never turn down a job, just charge enough to make it worth it to you.

The endgame of a performance management process is to allow a company to create a documentation trail of either good or bad performance so that they can justify the bonuses (or lack thereof) paid to certain employees. Yes, I know this makes me cynical, but so far I have never once seen an instance where a manager didn't go into the process already knowing what sort of bonus he or she wanted to give to the employee in question.

A cynic is just a naive person with some bad experiences. If you allow for a demographic comparison you could back-trace promotions etc. and reviews and pinpoint gender/race discrimination. Your system could end up doing a lot of good.

 

[Patt]

Whoever wrote that needs a PM course stat!

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The endgame of a performance management process is to allow a company to create a documentation trail of either good or bad performance so that they can justify the bonuses (or lack thereof) paid to certain employees. Yes, I know this makes me cynical, but so far I have never once seen an instance where a manager didn't go into the process already knowing what sort of bonus he or she wanted to give to the employee in question.

A cynic is just a naive person with some bad experiences. If you allow for a demographic comparison you could back-trace promotions etc. and reviews and pinpoint gender/race discrimination. Your system could end up doing a lot of good.

There is no "pinpointing" discrimination of protected classes by any HR metric ever devised except to show a trend of questionable practices on a nationwide basis. At best, it would take a class action suit and then, once again, the HR system would merely be additional evidence, not the smoking gun.

A cynic is anyone with a conscience, education or passion for their job who tries to make sense of corporate policies.

 

[Billb2]

Edwin Newman, the great reporter, comentator and author, believed that the eventual downfall of Western civilization would be our inability to use language. Your project indicates that we are at least half way there.

 

[cKGunslinger]

I did not see the word "SHALL" in there anywhere. Find some Open Source Solitaire program and collect $$.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

The endgame of a performance management process is to allow a company to create a documentation trail of either good or bad performance so that they can justify the bonuses (or lack thereof) paid to certain employees. Yes, I know this makes me cynical, but so far I have never once seen an instance where a manager didn't go into the process already knowing what sort of bonus he or she wanted to give to the employee in question.

A cynic is just a naive person with some bad experiences. If you allow for a demographic comparison you could back-trace promotions etc. and reviews and pinpoint gender/race discrimination. Your system could end up doing a lot of good.

There is no "pinpointing" discrimination of protected classes by any HR metric ever devised except to show a trend of questionable practices on a nationwide basis. At best, it would take a class action suit and then, once again, the HR system would merely be additional evidence, not the smoking gun.

You are off a bit. If the company wanted to behave in a socially responsible manner (and many more do than don't) then some simple multivariate statistical procedures would bring forward exactly what we're looking for. By pin-point i mean that if you compare reviews and practices across different managers in a large company you can see how some trend differently than others and then determine if, to a reasonable degree of certainty, there are those who have race, creed, color, or national origin as a primary predictor of promotion/demotion.

A cynic is anyone with a conscience, education or passion for their job who tries to make sense of corporate policies.

The problem is that many people do not understand their job. They think the job is to push papers, or objects or pixels around. The truth is your job is to be part of a socially cohesive network and gain capital and influence by having knowledge and abilities that are both apparent and utilizable.

Edwin Newman, the great reporter, comentator and author, believed that the eventual downfall of Western civilization would be our inability to use language. Your project indicates that we are at least half way there.

This is reasonably written from an HR perspective. The problem is not the specifications, the problem is that these specifications where given to someone who was then not allowed to do the job.

It's like asking an architect to build a house but then insisting that he can't survey my lot. 1st architects don't build houses, they design them; many other things go into building a house and 2nd even if the architect knew all the guys necessary the rules of the game are he isn't allowed to actually do the work he was asked to do in the first place.

Just because you don't understand the other guy's jargon doesn't mean it is meaningless.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

The endgame of a performance management process is to allow a company to create a documentation trail of either good or bad performance so that they can justify the bonuses (or lack thereof) paid to certain employees. Yes, I know this makes me cynical, but so far I have never once seen an instance where a manager didn't go into the process already knowing what sort of bonus he or she wanted to give to the employee in question.

A cynic is just a naive person with some bad experiences. If you allow for a demographic comparison you could back-trace promotions etc. and reviews and pinpoint gender/race discrimination. Your system could end up doing a lot of good.

There is no "pinpointing" discrimination of protected classes by any HR metric ever devised except to show a trend of questionable practices on a nationwide basis. At best, it would take a class action suit and then, once again, the HR system would merely be additional evidence, not the smoking gun.

You are off a bit. If the company wanted to behave in a socially responsible manner (and many more do than don't) then some simple multivariate statistical procedures would bring forward exactly what we're looking for. By pin-point i mean that if you compare reviews and practices across different managers in a large company you can see how some trend differently than others and then determine if, to a reasonable degree of certainty, there are those who have race, creed, color, or national origin as a primary predictor of promotion/demotion.

First, companies don't care whether they're socially responsible or not. Their only concern is to make money. At best, they'll try to limit their risk for litigation.

A cynic is anyone with a conscience, education or passion for their job who tries to make sense of corporate policies.

The problem is that many people do not understand their job. They think the job is to push papers, or objects or pixels around. The truth is your job is to be part of a socially cohesive network and gain capital and influence by having knowledge and abilities that are both apparent and utilizable. ]

According to whom? Upper management? Bwahahaha. I say again, companies have no interest in measuring performance only in talking about it. And, why is it assumed that management not only has the inside track on what is best for the company but the only viewpoint? My brains come attached to my skill set and they'd better make use of them or get the hell out of my way.

Edwin Newman, the great reporter, comentator and author, believed that the eventual downfall of Western civilization would be our inability to use language. Your project indicates that we are at least half way there.

This is reasonably written from an HR perspective. The problem is not the specifications, the problem is that these specifications where given to someone who was then not allowed to do the job.

You just made my previous point.

It's like asking an architect to build a house but then insisting that he can't survey my lot. 1st architects don't build houses, they design them; many other things go into building a house and 2nd even if the architect knew all the guys necessary the rules of the game are he isn't allowed to actually do the work he was asked to do in the first place.

Just because you don't understand the other guy's jargon doesn't mean it is meaningless.

The use of jargon is only acceptable (and, then only rarely) when being used as a kind of shorthand to speed communication between people of the same skill set. If companies spent as much time making an earnest attempt at communicating rather than touting the importance of it, everyone would be better off.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Tea Bag
BILLY MAYS HERE WITH BULLSHIT UN-QUANTIFIABLE REQUIREMENTS! DO YOU HATE JUMPING THROUGH HOOPS ADHERING TO STANDARDS THAT ARE OUTDATED AND USED IN A LAME ATTEMPT TO GRADE YOUR PERFORMANCE? WELL I'VE GOT THE SOLUTION FOR YOU - MENTALLY CHECK OUT OF YOUR JOB! ACT NOW AND I'LL THROW IN THIS WEBBROWSER THAT YOU CAN USE TO ASSIST YOU IN PHONING IN THE REST OF YOUR CAREER! THAT'S THE POWER OF THE INTERNET!

LOL! :laugh:

Mays is probably using the ETERNALNET now.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Man, working with HR people to define system requirements is the worst, isn't it?

Italicizing your comments would make the OP more readable.

Try getting 2 gov agenciies and 2 commercial companies to decide the RGB values of water for map displays. All 4 have their own existing color and shading

 

[Dr. Zaus]

First, companies don't care whether they're socially responsible or not. Their only concern is to make money. At best, they'll try to limit their risk for litigation.

You clearly do not know what you're talking about.

I say again, companies have no interest in measuring performance only in talking about it.

this goes against your first point.

are they mindless drones set to profit maximization or are they humans who focus entirely on personal feelings?

it seems whenever it would be 'bad' they focus on profits and whenever it would be 'evil' they focus on how they feal.


The truth is a company is composed of people, about 1/3rd of whom are as you describe *that's at all levels* the other 2/3rds are actually good folk who would rather take a 1c per-unit loss than cause birth defects.


Corporate social responsibility is very important to most people within most companies.

My brains come attached to my skill set and they'd better make use of them or get the hell out of my way.

The truth is your job is to be part of a socially cohesive network and gain capital and influence by having knowledge and abilities that are both apparent and utilizable.

According to whom? Upper management? Bwahahaha.

No, according to the laws of human behavior. People act in particular ways and the "or get the hell out of my way" mindset is detrimental to cohesive human interaction.


It makes sense that you would be cynical, you are a good-shiny cog and have an entitlement mindset because of it.

The use of jargon is only acceptable (and, then only rarely) when being used as a kind of shorthand to speed communication between people of the same skill set

fun fact, the OP said he was familiar with the jargon but simply not allowed to fulfill the requirements of it.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
This is reasonably written from an HR perspective. The problem is not the specifications, the problem is that these specifications where given to someone who was then not allowed to do the job.

No, not it's not "reasonably written" for the simple reason that it is not objective. Specifications must be objective. Period. (This is even neglecting the glaring grammatical errors that riddle the "specifications" that were posted.)

As written, there are literally thousands of ways in which I could "fulfill" the requirements. Hell, there are at least 102 separate ways in which I could arrange the split between corporate and individual performance weighting in the computation of the overall score. That is unacceptable and if you don't see why then I am frankly amazed that anyone would hire you at $25/hour, much less $250.

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
It's like asking an architect to build a house but then insisting that he can't survey my lot.

No. Actually it's like telling an architect to "design a pretty house with lots of room". It doesn't specify what is "pretty" in the mind of the client (I think Bauhaus is "pretty", many other people don't, if I build a "pretty" Bauhaus building and the client really wanted a Victorian, they will be upset, despite the fact that both the Bauhaus and the Victorian are "pretty" depending on which person is evaluating the building). It doesn't specify what "lots of room" means (I grew up in a 3,000 square foot house and I think that has "lots of room" but some people think that anything under 4,000 square foot is "small").

A requirement that says, for example, "the system shall allow many entries to be keyed in a short amount of time" is worthless. Neither "many" nor "short amount of time" are objective criteria and as a result there is no metric for what defines success. Such a requirement is properly phrased as, "the system shall allow an administrator to key a new record in no more than 5 minutes excluding the time necessary to log into the system." This amended requirement specifies a user (the administrator) and specifies an objectively measurable time limit on the entry of a record. Success of failure is readily measurable and the measurement is entirely independent of the personal biases of the individual performing said measurement.

ZV

 

[Dr. Zaus]

No. Actually it's like telling an architect to "design a pretty house with lots of room". It doesn't specify what is "pretty" in the mind of the client

Please read the following information as there is no doubt that you know there is no limit to how much even the most well informed person doesn't know about his field:
(in order of quality of article)
Culture and accountability in organizations: Variations in forms of social control across cultures. By: Gelfand, Michele J.; Lim, Beng-Chong; Raver, Jana L.. Human Resource Management Review, Mar2004, Vol. 14 Issue 1, p135, 26p;

Yes, but how? Nine tips for building a culture focused on results, relationships, and accountability.Citation Only Available By: Pennington, Randy G.. Industrial & Commercial Training, 2009, Vol. 41 Issue 3, p146-150

and here is one that answers exactly, directly, your question (though, should surely, not be your only source):

The Emerald City: Building a Culture of Accountability.Full Text Available Women in Business, Jul/Aug2007, Vol. 59 Issue 4, p34-38,

The article discusses the challenge of building a culture of accountability in an organization. It examines the lessons that can be learned from the Emerald City in the short story of "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz." In an organization where there is a culture of accountability everyone continually asks "What else can I do to achieve results, attain objectives and accomplish goals?" It is a culture that is based on certain experiences, beliefs, and actions, all aimed at generating desired results. It explains the steps to making a culture of accountability.

keep in mind you are not supposed to fulfill the requirement entirely, but know that this is part of what is trying to be done so that you can build an IT system that integrates the intent.

Again, Sorry about arguing. I was going to provide articles the first time but the baby was crying then i perceived hostility so I got haughty.

 

[SunSamurai]

It sounds to me like perhaps your bosses, are bosses for a reason.

 

[waggy]

I am sure dixycat really knows what he is talking about. we would get guys like him all the time. 90% of t he time they would be ignored. usually they lead to managment makeing some insane decisions that they think will halp make the workers better.

"The problem is that many people do not understand their job. They think the job is to push papers, or objects or pixels around. The truth is your job is to be part of a socially cohesive network and gain capital and influence by having knowledge and abilities that are both apparent and utilizable" and you know how most do that? by pushing papers or pixals around. the rest is just corp speak for get to know your coworkers heh