If you Believe the War is "Going Well" for the Coalition, you may not like this Thread . . .

[etech]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: etech

If we could OPEN both the Western minds and the Arab minds we be much less suspicious of each other.

Interesting contrast, the west minimizes the ME and the Arab press seems to blame every Arab problem on Israel and the US.

The ME with the exception of their two exports(oil and terrorists) is minimly important on the world stage. The US and Israel did not and are not the cause of the major problems of the region.

Nice try, but you can't escape those facts no matter how much you want to dance around them and try to put the blame on the West again.

The Blame DOES belong squarely on the West for supporting Israel unconditionally and its extreme IGNORANCE about the Arab world.

From 60 Minutes tonight:

Public opinion in the Arab world is overwhelmingly against the war, against the U.S. and among America?s allies in the region increasingly against their own governments. Nowhere is that clearer than in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan -- one of America?s closest allies in the Arab world.

?We are not a party to this war. Let?s establish that,? says Bassem Awadallah, a Jordanian government minister and close friend of King Abdullah. ?His majesty and the government have been very vehement about, about this, very vocal about this. We in the government are also as angry as the people on the street.?

King Abdullah of Jordan may be more concerned about the war in Iraq than any other leader in the Arab world. Having failed to convince President Bush to avoid war he?s been trying to minimize its impact on his tiny country. Sixty percent of his people are Palestinian refugees bitter toward the U.S. for its support of Israel and his economy is dependent on trade with Iraq.

Anti-War Anger In Jordan

Exactly, the Israel/Palestine conflict is at best a minor border skirmish. It could have been ended long ago except that the other Arab countries did not want it to end. Every problem in the region, related or not, is blamed on the Jews and the US for backing them. It's great propaganda but it isn't true. You wouldn't know that from the Arab press though.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: etech

If we could OPEN both the Western minds and the Arab minds we be much less suspicious of each other.

Interesting contrast, the west minimizes the ME and the Arab press seems to blame every Arab problem on Israel and the US.

The ME with the exception of their two exports(oil and terrorists) is minimly important on the world stage. The US and Israel did not and are not the cause of the major problems of the region.

Nice try, but you can't escape those facts no matter how much you want to dance around them and try to put the blame on the West again.

The Blame DOES belong squarely on the West for supporting Israel unconditionally and its extreme IGNORANCE about the Arab world.

From 60 Minutes tonight:

Public opinion in the Arab world is overwhelmingly against the war, against the U.S. and among America?s allies in the region increasingly against their own governments. Nowhere is that clearer than in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan -- one of America?s closest allies in the Arab world.

?We are not a party to this war. Let?s establish that,? says Bassem Awadallah, a Jordanian government minister and close friend of King Abdullah. ?His majesty and the government have been very vehement about, about this, very vocal about this. We in the government are also as angry as the people on the street.?

King Abdullah of Jordan may be more concerned about the war in Iraq than any other leader in the Arab world. Having failed to convince President Bush to avoid war he?s been trying to minimize its impact on his tiny country. Sixty percent of his people are Palestinian refugees bitter toward the U.S. for its support of Israel and his economy is dependent on trade with Iraq.

Anti-War Anger In Jordan

Exactly, the Israel/Palestine conflict is at best a minor border skirmish. It could have been ended long ago except that the other Arab countries did not want it to end. Every problem in the region, related or not, is blamed on the Jews and the US for backing them. It's great propaganda but it isn't true. You wouldn't know that from the Arab press though.

It's been going on for thousands of years - there is a HISTORY of hatred between the Arabs and the Jews.

The US simply "chose a side" and completely alienated the "other side". Even you don't "respect" the Arab position.

MORE from 60 min:

But it?s not just politicians who are opposing the war. We?ve talked with people from many walks of life in Amman - students, teachers, members of the government, ordinary Jordanians. We haven?t found one Jordanian who supports this war.

?Shock and awe was not really how we felt. It was more of anger and despair,? says Osama Al Sharif, an American educated newspaper publisher and influential Jordanian columnist. ?People have now totally taken the side of looking at this invasion, at this incursion into Iraq, as a colonial aggression.?

What does this tell Al Sharif about the way Americans understand the Arab world?

?With this latest crisis, I think the Arabs and Americans have never been so far apart,? he says. ?And this is really sad.?

It IS sad.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Pocket

Originally posted by: HJD1
Has anyone a link reference that would give info regarding the spread rate of the various WMD and the delivery scenerios involved? I've looked briefly but did not see it.

I'm really worried about terrorist attack say in San Diego and how worried I should be a little bit north of there.

You really shouldn't worry about it. All you need is a little bit a plastic sheeting and duct tape and all will be right as rain.

Seriously, snap out of it. There is no terrorist cell within the United States that has a WMD in their possession. The reason I know this is because I am the director of the NSA...or because it's reasonable to assume that if a terrorist cell did have a dirty bomb or whatever, they would have used it by now. Terrorists don't need an excuse to kill Americans. They don't give a crap whether we shower Saddam with bombs or with roses. They are going to hate us and try to kill us anyways. The vast differences in our cultures makes that fact inevitable. Yes, they are humans just like us. And like humans, they are terrified of something they do not understand that has more power than they do.

My point is that the threat of a WMD attack on an American city is about the same, if not less, than it has been for the past 10 years. How many terrorist attacks has the U.S. been threatened with since 9-11? The Arabic number system doesn't go that high. How many terrorist attacks have actually occured since then (within the U.S.)? Zero.

If terrorists had a nuke or something, it would be a lot easier for them to blow up Israel or something.

Anyways, the whole reason for military action into Iraq is to stop Saddam from supplying terrorists with WMD.

Because I have a house with folks fairly dispersed the plastic and duct tape advise was not practical. Soooo I went to Von's and got lots of them plastic bags, issued them and now we walk around with bags on our heads.


I think the wacko terrorist gets his name not from passive prayer but from action. His god will surely see him in a more favorable light if he does something really noteworthy for the folks back on earth. The bigger the bang the more likely he'll be noticed by God.
If you were a NSA operative it would be like; romans always lie and joe, a roman, say's that pete, a roman, said he saw ali the terrorist playing chess down the block so don't worry, anymore!:Q

 

[LunarRay]

Quote
True, but is the fact that they are a democratic nation mandate our unconditional support considering the area around them. Our creedo to support any nation in persuit of freedom (democracy). It seems to me, that may be part of the underlying reasons to stabilize the area. It just started with Iraq. I suppose this may mean that we will find other reasons to stabilize other nations in the area. Is that the goal?[/quote]Evidently . . . Iraq is the first. However, with American troops committed for possibly YEARS in Iraq - it's Infantry is going to be "tied up" and probably won't be able to "stabalize" other nations.

And Israel - because of the UNconditional support from the US - has become despotic and feel they "don't have to" resolve the Palestine issue. The Arabs see this as "unfair" (at the least).[/quote]

Yes! Even the Link betwix my ears sees that as the only conclusion I would make if I were an Arab or Muslim.
When we seek repayment from the Iraqis for our liberation of their ass ets, I wonder if they will take kindly to the oil stuffs being pumped out and a thank you in return. Will the bush folks sell this oil the the oil companies and repay the coffers of let the oil companies get windfall and really tic off everyone?

 

[BaDaBooM]

Hey apoppin,

Here is your answer for your original post about the Iraqis coming to fight the invaders. They are far from the majority.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: BaDaBooM
Hey apoppin,

Here is your answer for your original post about the Iraqis coming to fight the invaders. They are far from the majority.

thanks, saved me the effort, although I would have called it "If you Believe the War is "Going Bad" for the Coalition, you may not like this Link .....

 

[SpideyCU]

There was already a thread going with a similar title, though there were only about 8 posts in there because there was less opportunity to be a narrow-minded critic.

For those that think this war is going poorly, dont read this thread.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BaDaBooM
Hey apoppin,

Here is your answer for your original post about the Iraqis coming to fight the invaders. They are far from the majority.

Hey yourself . . .
from the "answer thread"

Ok, technically it's not over, but all that's really left is some light mop-up. Let the party begin

.

I will break out the champagne when the "technacilities" and "the light mop-up" is finally finished . . . It's "on ice" and "chillin" in preparation for the US victory . . . BUT I am still cautioning "caution".


And it looks like "looting" and anarchy will have to be dealt with and the Arab "opinion" in their world - they are not "cheering" the US (yet, if ever).

But Yes - so far this is the BEST news . . .

 

[alchemize]

Let me add my well thought out opinion to the original title/premise of this thread...

Neener neener neener. You were wrong.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Let me add my well thought out opinion to the original title/premise of this thread...

Neener neener neener. You were wrong.

I believe I stated in this thread (or a related one) I would be VERY HAPPY to be wrong.

The purpose of this thread was to Provide the "world view" as stated in the first post.

And I don't believe the danger of Saddam's using WMD is completely over yet.
(I will breathe a HUGE sigh of "relief" when it IS).

I don't think I need to reply further in this thread . . . if you overlooked the "purpose" of this thread you won't believe my explanations either.

 

[alchemize]

Title of the thread
"If you Believe the War is "Going Well" for the Coalition, you may not like this Thread..."

Fun to watch you backpedal though...

 

[alchemize]

But allow me to dismatle all of your statements one by one...


"It occured to me while watching ABC this AM that there are NO Iraqi refugees!"
Not anymore! They began fleeing like ants a few days ago. Will start returning soon however.


"In fact there was a featured report by David Wright that there was a major flow of Iraqis (mostly younger men) between Jordan and Iraq - RETURNING to Baghdad. The sentiment was, We hate Saddam BUT will defend our country to the death. :Q"
Hmm, maybe the sentiment was "until our regime flees like ants"


"The report mentioned the singing of what a "fine thing it is to be martyrd in the homeland". These people generally HAVE GOOD JOBS and FAMILIES in Jordan! Most of them are on Iraq's long "waiting list" to return - the embassy is understaffed to process their requests.

Damn! These people LOVE their country and HATE US (all the while despising their own leaders). "
I think they love their country, but if the still hate US, they aren't showing it much anymore.


"Has the coalition underestimated their DETERMINATION to DIE rather than SURRENDER? "
Nope. Clearly.

"And now it is believed that thousands of other Islamic fighters are joining them to go as soldiers and suicide bombers."
We made quick work out of any of those that threw themselves against the teeth of our military. Glad to oblige their martyrdom.

"Now, we must remember they are HUMAN BEINGS, not ignorant "animals". They think and feel as we do EXCEPT as shaped by their RELIGON and CULTURE."
I can't argue with that. Problem is, their religion and culture is devoid of logic and reason. See, if the leader of my church said "we must exterminate the Jews", I'd have a few problems with that.


"MOST IMPORTANTLY, Al-Jazeera rules the air waves?whether the Pentagon likes it or not
(excellent read! from MSNBC.com)"
Can't disagree with that. They sure like their gory propagand over there. Logic and reason are reserved for the infidels.

"Is this war even remotely "winable"?"
Um, yes. All done but the clean up work now.

 

[BaDaBooM]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: BaDaBooM
Hey apoppin,

Here is your answer for your original post about the Iraqis coming to fight the invaders. They are far from the majority.

Hey yourself . . .
from the "answer thread"

Ok, technically it's not over, but all that's really left is some light mop-up. Let the party begin

.

I will break out the champagne when the "technacilities" and "the light mop-up" is finally finished . . . It's "on ice" and "chillin" in preparation for the US victory . . . BUT I am still cautioning "caution".


And it looks like "looting" and anarchy will have to be dealt with and the Arab "opinion" in their world - they are not "cheering" the US (yet, if ever).


But Yes - so far this is the BEST news . . .

Yea, I agree... but this is a major milestone for the war. I think it is ok to "celebrate" this as long as you remember there is still more to do (and I do). It's also great that the Iraqs are supporting us, unlike what some said would happen.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Let me add my well thought out opinion to the original title/premise of this thread...

Neener neener neener. You were wrong.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Let me add my well thought out opinion to the original title/premise of this thread...

Neener neener neener. You were wrong.

 

[DT4K]

Apoppin, do you feel stupid yet?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Shanti
Apoppin, do you feel stupid yet?

It is NEVER stupid to express caution. The only guarantee in this world is uncertainty.
It is ALWAYS stupid to be overly optimistic. In fact, being overly "positive" is the military euphemism for "stupid."

 

[MadRat]

Originally posted by: Vic
It is NEVER stupid to express caution.

You must have never counted cards. When you have most of the details one can forgo alot of the normal caution.

 

[Bulk Beef]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Shanti
Apoppin, do you feel stupid yet?

It is NEVER stupid to express caution. The only guarantee in this world is uncertainty.
It is ALWAYS stupid to be overly optimistic. In fact, being overly "positive" is the military euphemism for "stupid."

Underpromise and overdeliver. Good policy.

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: alchemize
Let me add my well thought out opinion to the original title/premise of this thread...

Neener neener neener. You were wrong.

 

[SpideyCU]

Originally posted by: BaDaBooM
Yea, I agree... but this is a major milestone for the war. I think it is ok to "celebrate" this as long as you remember there is still more to do (and I do). It's also great that the Iraqs are supporting us, unlike what some said would happen.

^^ What he said.

 

[LunarRay]

I can't brlieve the jist of all these posts gloating over victory when the Iraqi Information Minister had denied any thing is as the other media depicts.... don't you folks watch his bradcasts... geez It is possible to lose this war still. I wont believe it till I SEE that Iraqi oil in my gas tank.:evil:

 

[Pocket]

Originally posted by: HJD1
I can't brlieve the jist of all these posts gloating over victory when the Iraqi Information Minister had denied any thing is as the other media depicts.... don't you folks watch his bradcasts... geez It is possible to lose this war still. I wont believe it till I SEE that Iraqi oil in my gas tank.:evil:

Wow, I hope that guy is joking because that is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. The Iraqi Information Minister hasn't broadcast in over 24 hours. When he did broadcast it was obvious lies. The last broadcast he made was on the streets of Baghdad a day or two ago. He said that there were no Americans in the city at all. Meanwhile, in the background you could hear machine gun and tank fire. And that's just one example.

 

[SpideyCU]

Erm...yes...he was joking.

On a related note, I think misinterpretation is reigning high here (here? never!). There is certainly cause for celebration - this was a great day. We are NOT celebrating the fact that everything's over and done with. This WAS, however, a fantastic milestone, especially considering how many people were telling us that moving into Baghdad would result in old men and little girls throwing themselves at the invading 'devils', which would cause casualties to skyrocket. All in all considered, I believe this went damned well, and being satisfied with how things went is justified. Conspiracy theories aside, that is.

 

[shiner]