If we taxed the rich more, how would it affect job creation?

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: b2386

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: b2386
75%? I don't think so... Also, why would Europe be the only relocation alternative?

Where else is there?

Japan? High taxes. Canada? High taxes. Australia? High taxes? Somalia? Low taxes but you need your own standing army. Mexico? Low taxes but you need your own standing army.

Your low tax paradise doesn't exist. You either pay taxes for a decent society or you pay people to protect you from those who want to take your head, literally.

What about Dubai?

I don't think many people want to live in an Islamic republic.

 

[Fox5]

High taxes on businesses, goods, and services = bad
High taxes on individual income = good

Why? Businesses can and will leave, people can and will buy less, but individuals have little choice but to grin and bear it.

 

[MikeMike]

so is this the next step in equality? after the blacks, and mexicans, women, etc become equal, next we must all live in the same little boxes regulated by the government in size, shape, and materials, on the same size plot of land...

seems like techs dream

 

[nycromes]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: nycromes
Okay, lets say for example tomorrow we put a tax on Bill Gates and other Millionaires/Billionaires. Put yourself in their shoes for 15 minutes and think what you would do. You would obviously have a couple of options:

1. You could sit down and take the tax and just go on making a fraction of what you previously did.
2. you could relocate to a more friendly environment where you wouldn't have to pay as much, I'm sure many countries would love to be able to tax people like Bill Gates at a substantially lower rate than 75% and still make a ton of money off of him.
3. I'm sure there are other options, but there isn't much point to go on...

If you made a billion dollars a year and you were taxed at 75% of your earnings, you would take home 250 million. Exercising option 2, you could take home perhaps less than a billion or maybe even more, and be taxed at a lower rate by another country. For this example, lets say 50%, so you would take home 500million after taxes. Is the move going to cost $250 million? If not then you bet your butt that the rich will leave and leave in droves. This will make the primary tax burden fall to the middle class as the poor can't pay.

How does it pertain to job creation? Do you think Bill will do all of his work totally away from the company? No, he will relocate the company to where he is, and they will probably enjoy nice tax breaks there as well. Labor is labor in one place or the other, offer to move people or give them severance. Hire to fill the gaps in new country.

This post demonstrates one thing that many politicians just can't comprehend. People aren't stuck in one place (well the middle class and poor are in many ways) but the rich are free to leave and leave they will. With them will go many businesses and jobs. Your example sadly just expects the rich to take large pay cuts, but in reality they will demand more of their current workers and try to increase their wages to offset the difference. They will be less likely to want to hire another person as this will lead to much higher costs.

People aren't here to do your bidding and pay for you to live, they are here to do the best thing they can for themselves. If some other option out there is better, they will most likely take it. Wouldn't you? Why do you think the rich would act any differently than you? They have even more options available because of the money they possess.

Nonsense. The rich aren't going to leave. They didn't leave when the top rate was 90% after WWII. They're not going to leave now. All things are not equal. The only places with similar quality of life to the U.S. have equal or higher tax rates.

Bill Gates isn't going to move Microsoft anywhere either. Moving Microsoft facilities would cost a tremendous amount of money. He'd lose a lot of access to the U.S. business and Government market. Microsoft will ship some development work abroad and they'd do that regardless of our tax rates.

And make sure you read up on marginal tax rates. The country is full of people who don't get it.

Microsoft needs the US and its military to enforce copyright laws so other countries don't just pirate away Windoze.

Keep telling yourself that, piracy of Windows is huge around the world and the military isn't doing squat about it. Try again.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: nycromes

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: nycromes
Okay, lets say for example tomorrow we put a tax on Bill Gates and other Millionaires/Billionaires. Put yourself in their shoes for 15 minutes and think what you would do. You would obviously have a couple of options:

1. You could sit down and take the tax and just go on making a fraction of what you previously did.
2. you could relocate to a more friendly environment where you wouldn't have to pay as much, I'm sure many countries would love to be able to tax people like Bill Gates at a substantially lower rate than 75% and still make a ton of money off of him.
3. I'm sure there are other options, but there isn't much point to go on...

If you made a billion dollars a year and you were taxed at 75% of your earnings, you would take home 250 million. Exercising option 2, you could take home perhaps less than a billion or maybe even more, and be taxed at a lower rate by another country. For this example, lets say 50%, so you would take home 500million after taxes. Is the move going to cost $250 million? If not then you bet your butt that the rich will leave and leave in droves. This will make the primary tax burden fall to the middle class as the poor can't pay.

How does it pertain to job creation? Do you think Bill will do all of his work totally away from the company? No, he will relocate the company to where he is, and they will probably enjoy nice tax breaks there as well. Labor is labor in one place or the other, offer to move people or give them severance. Hire to fill the gaps in new country.

This post demonstrates one thing that many politicians just can't comprehend. People aren't stuck in one place (well the middle class and poor are in many ways) but the rich are free to leave and leave they will. With them will go many businesses and jobs. Your example sadly just expects the rich to take large pay cuts, but in reality they will demand more of their current workers and try to increase their wages to offset the difference. They will be less likely to want to hire another person as this will lead to much higher costs.

People aren't here to do your bidding and pay for you to live, they are here to do the best thing they can for themselves. If some other option out there is better, they will most likely take it. Wouldn't you? Why do you think the rich would act any differently than you? They have even more options available because of the money they possess.

Nonsense. The rich aren't going to leave. They didn't leave when the top rate was 90% after WWII. They're not going to leave now. All things are not equal. The only places with similar quality of life to the U.S. have equal or higher tax rates.

Bill Gates isn't going to move Microsoft anywhere either. Moving Microsoft facilities would cost a tremendous amount of money. He'd lose a lot of access to the U.S. business and Government market. Microsoft will ship some development work abroad and they'd do that regardless of our tax rates.

And make sure you read up on marginal tax rates. The country is full of people who don't get it.

Microsoft needs the US and its military to enforce copyright laws so other countries don't just pirate away Windoze.

Keep telling yourself that, piracy of Windows is huge around the world and the military isn't doing squat about it. Try again.

Additionally Microsoft has come out and stated that if they raise taxes that they will move workers overseas. I don't really understand how you can claim that they wont when they have come out and stated they will.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: SammyJr
I really think Republicans want a gilded upper class aristocracy that they can adore and worship.

Kind of like Democrats want from their politicians?

 

[techs]

If the super rich want to leave because we raise taxes, I say let the traitors leave.
We should drop them off, with all their money in cash, in Somalia.
Or lets send them to Russia. Putin will have them in jail in a hot minute.
Or I guess they can go to the those Reagan economic republics of Ireland and Iceland. Where the economic collapse could bankrupt them.

Or better yet, just take back from them the money they made because they lived in the US.
Bill Gates would still be a pauper and never had created Microsoft if he lived in any other country on earth.
So let Bill go anywhere he wants. He can take 50 grand with him.
If he is such a great entrepenuer and job creator lets see how he does in Botwsana.

 

[sandorski]

If the US Economy bears any resemblance to the Canadian Economy, and I suspect it does, then 70-80% of all New Jobs are created by Small-Medium sized Business. Those Businesses are far from the Rich and consist mostly of Owners in the Upper Middle Class.

 

[b2386]

Originally posted by: techs
If the super rich want to leave because we raise taxes, I say let the traitors leave.
We should drop them off, with all their money in cash, in Somalia.
Or lets send them to Russia. Putin will have them in jail in a hot minute.
Or I guess they can go to the those Reagan economic republics of Ireland and Iceland. Where the economic collapse could bankrupt them.

Or better yet, just take back from them the money they made because they lived in the US.
Bill Gates would still be a pauper and never had created Microsoft if he lived in any other country on earth.
So let Bill go anywhere he wants. He can take 50 grand with him.
If he is such a great entrepenuer and job creator lets see how he does in Botwsana.

Wow, that sort of thinking is about as un-American as you can get. I am new to this part of the forum so pardon me for asking, but are you being serious?

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: b2386
Wow, that sort of thinking is about as un-American as you can get. I am new to this part of the forum so pardon me for asking, but are you being serious?

That sort of thinking *was* about un-American as you can get but now it is the norm.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: b2386

Originally posted by: techs
If the super rich want to leave because we raise taxes, I say let the traitors leave.
We should drop them off, with all their money in cash, in Somalia.
Or lets send them to Russia. Putin will have them in jail in a hot minute.
Or I guess they can go to the those Reagan economic republics of Ireland and Iceland. Where the economic collapse could bankrupt them.

Or better yet, just take back from them the money they made because they lived in the US.
Bill Gates would still be a pauper and never had created Microsoft if he lived in any other country on earth.
So let Bill go anywhere he wants. He can take 50 grand with him.
If he is such a great entrepenuer and job creator lets see how he does in Botwsana.

Wow, that sort of thinking is about as un-American as you can get. I am new to this part of the forum so pardon me for asking, but are you being serious?

I'd say the people he's talking about who would want to leave because they're not allowed to exploit the country are pretty un-American and immoral. Yes, he's serious.

 

[b2386]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: b2386

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: b2386
75%? I don't think so... Also, why would Europe be the only relocation alternative?

Where else is there?

Japan? High taxes. Canada? High taxes. Australia? High taxes? Somalia? Low taxes but you need your own standing army. Mexico? Low taxes but you need your own standing army.

Your low tax paradise doesn't exist. You either pay taxes for a decent society or you pay people to protect you from those who want to take your head, literally.

What about Dubai?

I don't think many people want to live in an Islamic republic.

It's really not as bad as you think. I had a friend who moved there about three years ago and absolutely loves it. (He is non-religious, btw) Just like the US is becoming more socially moderate, so is Dubai becoming more moderate as well.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: techs
Lets look at these companies discussed in a different thread on another issue:


Bill Gates worth $57 billion
co-founder of Microsoft which provides about 89,000 jobs world wide.
$640,000 in wealth for every person employed.

The four Walton children $93 billion combined.
Father founded Wal-Mart which provides 2,100,000 jobs
$44,000 in wealth for every job provided



Lets say we upped the top income tax bracket to 75 percent. Would Bill Gates have said its not worth it start Microsoft? Of course not. And the money that built Microsoft didn't come out of Gates pocket, but out of bank loans and stock.
AND I submit that if Gates paid more taxes that would mean the middle class would pay proportionatly less. Meaning they would have more money for software.
SO TAXING BILL GATES AT A HIGHER RATE WOULD CREATE MORE JOBS.


The four Walton children did squat to create any jobs. Their father did. And so the kids are tying up 93 billion dollars that if say, 25 billion had been paid in taxes, would proportionatly lower the middle class and poors taxes. Meaning they would have more money to spend at WalMart. Which would create more jobs.SO TAXING THE WALTON KIDS AT A HIGHER RATE WOULD CREATE MORE JOBS.

Hopefully this will end the discussion. Higher taxes on the rich leave more money for everyone else, which stimulates demand, which creates jobs.

So, you're saying lower taxes on the middle class (the poor don't pay income taxes) results in greater demand/growing economy and more jobs?

Did you become a Republican over the weekend?

Sounds like you're now endorsing the Republican version of stimulus to generate jobs and an economic recovery - cutting taxes on the middle class.

Fern

 

[Patranus]

How about we cut spending so that we can cut taxes on everyone?

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: b2386

Originally posted by: techs
If the super rich want to leave because we raise taxes, I say let the traitors leave.
We should drop them off, with all their money in cash, in Somalia.
Or lets send them to Russia. Putin will have them in jail in a hot minute.
Or I guess they can go to the those Reagan economic republics of Ireland and Iceland. Where the economic collapse could bankrupt them.

Or better yet, just take back from them the money they made because they lived in the US.
Bill Gates would still be a pauper and never had created Microsoft if he lived in any other country on earth.
So let Bill go anywhere he wants. He can take 50 grand with him.
If he is such a great entrepenuer and job creator lets see how he does in Botwsana.

Wow, that sort of thinking is about as un-American as you can get. I am new to this part of the forum so pardon me for asking, but are you being serious?

Un American? You mean people who make alot of money in this country and then threaten to leave because their asked to pay their fair share are patriots?
There freakin leaches who we should all spit on as traitors.
And if you agree with them than you should go somewhere you'll fit in, like China or Russia.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: techs
If the super rich want to leave because we raise taxes, I say let the traitors leave.
We should drop them off, with all their money in cash, in Somalia.
Or lets send them to Russia. Putin will have them in jail in a hot minute.
Or I guess they can go to the those Reagan economic republics of Ireland and Iceland. Where the economic collapse could bankrupt them.

Or better yet, just take back from them the money they made because they lived in the US.
Bill Gates would still be a pauper and never had created Microsoft if he lived in any other country on earth.
So let Bill go anywhere he wants. He can take 50 grand with him.
If he is such a great entrepenuer and job creator lets see how he does in Botwsana.

Burn 'em at the stake Techs, you know you wanna.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: b2386

Originally posted by: techs
If the super rich want to leave because we raise taxes, I say let the traitors leave.
We should drop them off, with all their money in cash, in Somalia.
Or lets send them to Russia. Putin will have them in jail in a hot minute.
Or I guess they can go to the those Reagan economic republics of Ireland and Iceland. Where the economic collapse could bankrupt them.

Or better yet, just take back from them the money they made because they lived in the US.
Bill Gates would still be a pauper and never had created Microsoft if he lived in any other country on earth.
So let Bill go anywhere he wants. He can take 50 grand with him.
If he is such a great entrepenuer and job creator lets see how he does in Botwsana.

Wow, that sort of thinking is about as un-American as you can get. I am new to this part of the forum so pardon me for asking, but are you being serious?

Un American? You mean people who make alot of money in this country and then threaten to leave because their asked to pay their fair share are patriots?
There freakin leaches who we should all spit on as traitors.
And if you agree with them than you should go somewhere you'll fit in, like China or Russia.

What is "their fair share"?
Free cars for those who are on welfare?
http://news.bostonherald.com/n...rvc=home&position=also

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Patranus
How about we cut spending so that we can cut taxes on everyone?

Sure. Defense cut 75%, corporate subsidies slashed, reform Medicare drug plan to let the government negotiate the drug prices, etc.

 

[b2386]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: b2386

Originally posted by: techs
If the super rich want to leave because we raise taxes, I say let the traitors leave.
We should drop them off, with all their money in cash, in Somalia.
Or lets send them to Russia. Putin will have them in jail in a hot minute.
Or I guess they can go to the those Reagan economic republics of Ireland and Iceland. Where the economic collapse could bankrupt them.

Or better yet, just take back from them the money they made because they lived in the US.
Bill Gates would still be a pauper and never had created Microsoft if he lived in any other country on earth.
So let Bill go anywhere he wants. He can take 50 grand with him.
If he is such a great entrepenuer and job creator lets see how he does in Botwsana.

Wow, that sort of thinking is about as un-American as you can get. I am new to this part of the forum so pardon me for asking, but are you being serious?

Un American? You mean people who make alot of money in this country and then threaten to leave because their asked to pay their fair share are patriots?
There freakin leaches who we should all spit on as traitors.
And if you agree with them than you should go somewhere you'll fit in, like China or Russia.

Let's say I was a tenant in an apartment paying $500 a month for rent. I had an extremely nice landlord who was always on top of things that needed to be fixed or otherwise taken care of. Suppose I received a notice from the landlord on day saying my rent was going to be doubled to $1000 a month. If I told the landlord I was moving out due to the increase in rent, am I somehow betraying the landlord by doing do? Even though he was a great guy who did provide me with a place to live, would you really expect me to be obligated to stay? By your logic, the landlord should throw me out on the street and keep any belongings I had stored inside the apartment. That does not make any sense.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: SammyJr
I really think Republicans want a gilded upper class aristocracy that they can adore and worship.

Kind of like Democrats want from their politicians?

Democrats have nothing on the kind of ardent, earnest adoration that Republicans showed to Bush and constantly show to just about everyone with a lot of money.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: SammyJr
-snip-
Nonsense. The rich aren't going to leave. They didn't leave when the top rate was 90% after WWII. They're not going to leave now. All things are not equal. The only places with similar quality of life to the U.S. have equal or higher tax rates.

Bill Gates isn't going to move Microsoft anywhere either. Moving Microsoft facilities would cost a tremendous amount of money. He'd lose a lot of access to the U.S. business and Government market. Microsoft will ship some development work abroad and they'd do that regardless of our tax rates.

And make sure you read up on marginal tax rates. The country is full of people who don't get it.

I don't know how you're so sure the rich didn't leave when we had high tax rates after WWII?

IIRC, in the 80's when we had lower taxes than Europe many of them relocated here.

I suspect you're laboring under the mistaken impression that when the wealthy 'relocate' for tax purposes they actually stay in the country of 'tax residence'. That's wrong.

I've done country-by-country tax comparison studies for wealthy people. They are looking to find where their country of (tax - income, estate & gift and wealth tax etc) residence will be. But that has nothing to do with where they actually spend their time. They'll still stay their apartments in NYC, Paris, Switzerland etc. I.e. While the point of the study was to choose the best country of residence for tax purposes, it had no real effect on where they actually spent their time or where they stayed.

BTW: If we raised our income tax rate as significantly as the OP suggests our rate w/b the highest in the world. You do know that many wealthy/famous 'live' in Monaco which has NO income tax? (In fact, there are plenty of nice islands that have no income tax rate. Just buy a mansion there and claim it as your tax residence and go about your normal business.)

The other part of the equation not addressed here so far is that we'd like successful/wealthy people from other countries to move here, that sure as heck won't happen with a 75% income tax rate.

Finaly, high rates encourage evasion; there's no doubt about that. Also, capital would leave the US to be deployed in other lower tax juridictions and that's a negative for us. Plus, the wealthy have a great deal of flexibility as to when they recognize income, they'd be able to plan around this rate increase hoping it would eventually come down. A lot less income would be reported if such a rate went into effect. I do think the very high earners could handle a few more percent in their tax rate, but one must be careful of the psycological effects of an income tax above 50%. When factoring in federal, state, local income tax rates and Medicaid/medicare some are already close to 50% now.

Fern

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: b2386

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: b2386

Originally posted by: techs
If the super rich want to leave because we raise taxes, I say let the traitors leave.
We should drop them off, with all their money in cash, in Somalia.
Or lets send them to Russia. Putin will have them in jail in a hot minute.
Or I guess they can go to the those Reagan economic republics of Ireland and Iceland. Where the economic collapse could bankrupt them.

Or better yet, just take back from them the money they made because they lived in the US.
Bill Gates would still be a pauper and never had created Microsoft if he lived in any other country on earth.
So let Bill go anywhere he wants. He can take 50 grand with him.
If he is such a great entrepenuer and job creator lets see how he does in Botwsana.

Wow, that sort of thinking is about as un-American as you can get. I am new to this part of the forum so pardon me for asking, but are you being serious?

Un American? You mean people who make alot of money in this country and then threaten to leave because their asked to pay their fair share are patriots?
There freakin leaches who we should all spit on as traitors.
And if you agree with them than you should go somewhere you'll fit in, like China or Russia.

Let's say I was a tenant in an apartment paying $500 a month for rent. I had an extremely nice landlord who was always on top of things that needed to be fixed or otherwise taken care of. Suppose I received a notice from the landlord on day saying my rent was going to be doubled to $1000 a month. If I told the landlord I was moving out due to the increase in rent, am I somehow betraying the landlord by doing do? Even though he was a great guy who did provide me with a place to live, would you really expect me to be obligated to stay? By your logic, the landlord should throw me out on the street and keep any belongings I had stored inside the apartment. That does not make any sense.

Who is getting their Taxes Doubled?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: b2386
Let's say I was a tenant in an apartment paying $500 a month for rent. I had an extremely nice landlord who was always on top of things that needed to be fixed or otherwise taken care of. Suppose I received a notice from the landlord on day saying my rent was going to be doubled to $1000 a month. If I told the landlord I was moving out due to the increase in rent, am I somehow betraying the landlord by doing do? Even though he was a great guy who did provide me with a place to live, would you really expect me to be obligated to stay? By your logic, the landlord should throw me out on the street and keep any belongings I had stored inside the apartment. That does not make any sense.

If you make up specious, fallacious analogies that lack any common sense, are you a right-winger? Probably.

When the flaws are reasonably small, they can pretty easily be discussed. When they're bogglingly large, it's a waste of time to try.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: Craig234
If you make up specious, fallacious analogies that lack any common sense, are you a right-winger? Probably.

When the flaws are reasonably small, they can pretty easily be discussed. When they're bogglingly large, it's a waste of time to try.

Here you go...Higher taxes cost jobs...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...01087&sid=aAKluP7yIwJY

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: SammyJr
-snip-
Nonsense. The rich aren't going to leave. They didn't leave when the top rate was 90% after WWII. They're not going to leave now. All things are not equal. The only places with similar quality of life to the U.S. have equal or higher tax rates.

Bill Gates isn't going to move Microsoft anywhere either. Moving Microsoft facilities would cost a tremendous amount of money. He'd lose a lot of access to the U.S. business and Government market. Microsoft will ship some development work abroad and they'd do that regardless of our tax rates.

And make sure you read up on marginal tax rates. The country is full of people who don't get it.

I don't know how you're so sure the rich didn't leave when we had high tax rates after WWII?

IIRC, in the 80's when we had lower taxes than Europe many of them relocated here.

I suspect you're laboring under the mistaken impression that when the wealthy 'relocate' for tax purposes they actually stay in the country of 'tax residence'. That's wrong.

I've done country-by-country tax comparison studies for wealthy people. They are looking to find where their country of (tax - income, estate & gift and wealth tax etc) residence will be. But that has nothing to do with where they actually spend their time. They'll still stay their apartments in NYC, Paris, Switzerland etc. I.e. While the point of the study was to choose the best country of residence for tax purposes, it had no real effect on where they actually spent their time or where they stayed.

BTW: If we raised our income tax rate as significantly as the OP suggests our rate w/b the highest in the world. You do know that many wealthy/famous 'live' in Monaco which has NO income tax? (In fact, there are plenty of nice islands that have no income tax rate. Just buy a mansion there and claim it as your tax residence and go about your normal business.)

The other part of the equation not addressed here so far is that we'd like successful/wealthy people from other countries to move here, that sure as heck won't happen with a 75% income tax rate.

Finaly, high rates encourage evasion; there's no doubt about that. Also, capital would leave the US to be deployed in other lower tax juridictions and that's a negative for us. Plus, the wealthy have a great deal of flexibility as to when they recognize income, they'd be able to plan around this rate increase hoping it would eventually come down. A lot less income would be reported if such a rate went into effect. I do think the very high earners could handle a few more percent in their tax rate, but one must be careful of the psycological effects of an income tax above 50%. When factoring in federal, state, local income tax rates and Medicaid/medicare some are already close to 50% now.

Fern

Well, then, I guess what we need is a race to the bottom until the countries of the world are bidding against each other to pay the rich to live there. Otherwise they might leave!