If Trump`s Muslim ban is illegal.......

[JEDIYoda]

Why Is nothing being done to countermand the Muslim ban??
Personally I do not agree with his Muslim ban! But what can be done.....and you must remember that spineless Republicans run both houses!! Nuff said -- discuss....

 

[greatnoob]

Because as Giuliani said, they needed a way to make sure this Muslim ban was not illegal according to the constitution. So instead of framing this as a religious ban, they did so with the false pretense of 'danger'. It's an exploit so the "Muslim ban" that Trumpists wanted could go in effect save it not being effective in any means for the safety of the American people.

 

[ivwshane]

To put it in an analogy you can understand: if a president created an EO that banned the sale of ammo in states that had a low percent of murders by gun. Would you be saying right now that the EO doesn't ban guns because you can still get ammo for guns in other states or you could make your own? Or would you be screaming bloody murder because that piece of shit president just tried to ban guns in a round about way?

Good luck! Don't sprain anything while you twist yourself into knots trying to justify one over the other.

 

[disappoint]

Why Is nothing being done to countermand the Muslim ban??
Personally I do not agree with his Muslim ban! But what can be done.....and you must remember that spineless Republicans run both houses!! Nuff said -- discuss....

Because it's not a Muslim ban. There's already a thread on it.

 

[compuwiz1]

If it were truly a Muslim ban, the countries containing the other 88% of the Muslims would have been included. This is an immigration pause from 7 countries, not a Muslim ban. When this administration has figured out the proper vetting program they think is acceptable, the immigration will resume. People need to stop being dolts and following all the news spin on this, which in many cases is fake news, alternate of what is reality.

 

[MongGrel]

It's framed to allow Saudi Arabians etc that had more involvement in 9/11 to continue to move about, imposes restrictions on people that have already been cleared in the past, and really does nothing compared to the vetting that has always been in place.

In other words it was a Trump prop from the start, which accomplished nothing other than screwing shit up, get used to it.

Trump has no concept of what he is doing, he is just randomly doing crap for photo ops.

His EOs have not been reviewed, he's just signing them for looks, and his supporters cheer when they mean little to nothing.

 

[MongGrel]

Lets see how many he writes today, before he starts twittering and checking out how his resorts are doing.

I would not be surprised if one of his American Psycho sons does not kill a woman and he gives him a Presidential Pardon in the next 4 years, just because.

😵

 

[compuwiz1]

Lets see how many he writes today, before he starts twittering and checking out how his resorts are doing.

I would not be surprised if one of his American Psycho sons does not kill a woman and he gives him a Presidential Pardon in the next 4 years, just because.

You are really clutching your hate pocket. His sons are hard working, honorable people. They are not a bunch of spoiled assed drug addicts, as are many wealthy and famous offspring. What, exactly, is your problem with them? Like I said, you're just looking to hate without substance.

 

[MongGrel]

You are really clutching your hate pocket. His sons are hard working, honorable people. They are not a bunch of spoiled assed drug addicts, as are many wealthy and famous offspring. What, exactly, is your problem with them? Like I said, you're just looking to hate without substance.

I've known a few big trust fund kiddies in the past personally, some of the biggest hypocrites in the world.

And they were spoiled upper class drug addicts more or less, so give it a break.

So, you know Trumps sons personally ?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It's framed to allow Saudi Arabians etc that had more involvement in 9/11 to continue to move about, imposes restrictions on people that have already been cleared in the past, and really does nothing compared to the vetting that has always been in place.

In other words it was a Trump prop from the start, which accomplished nothing other than screwing shit up, get used to it.

Trump has no concept of what he is doing, he is just randomly doing crap for photo ops.

His EOs have not been reviewed, he's just signing them for looks, and his supporters cheer when they mean little to nothing.

We still have a deep and persistent dysfunctional understanding of how law works which is distinct from how we would like things to be. Trump's EOs are inherently legal until a court says otherwise, and "isn't it obvious that..." doesn't work, but eventually he's going to cross a legal line in his behavior, not a "mistake" in an EO but actually violate law and that's when the opposition can do the most good. He're hoping for abject stupidity along those lines.

 

[Meghan54]

If it were truly a Muslim ban, the countries containing the other 88% of the Muslims would have been included. This is an immigration pause from 7 countries, not a Muslim ban. When this administration has figured out the proper vetting program they think is acceptable, the immigration will resume. People need to stop being dolts and following all the news spin on this, which in many cases is fake news, alternate of what is reality.

An immigration "pause" from 7 countries with an exception for Christians within those countries. So, while true the travel ban is a pause, except for Syria which is indefinite, it most certainly focuses upon Muslims and not everyone within those 7 countries....essentially a ban on Muslims from those particular countries. What else can it be called?

 

[MongGrel]

We still have a deep and persistent dysfunctional understanding of how law works which is distinct from how we would like things to be. Trump's EOs are inherently legal until a court says otherwise, and "isn't it obvious that..." doesn't work, but eventually he's going to cross a legal line in his behavior, not a "mistake" in an EO but actually violate law and that's when the opposition can do the most good. He're hoping for abject stupidity along those lines.

He is still just writing them as props to hold up, the TPP one never meant a thing as the US was never signed onto it to begin with.

Is just pablum to his supporters that he is actually doing something, while it all it amounts to is wasted time and money for a photo op.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

He is still just writing them as props to hold up, the TPP one never meant a thing as the US was never signed onto it to begin with.

Never said otherwise, I was just amplifying on how stupid works, not justifying it.

 

[compuwiz1]

I've known a few big trust fund kiddies in the past personally, some of the biggest hypocrites in the world.

And they were spoiled upper class drug addicts more or less, so give it a break.

So, you know Trumps sons personally ?

No, I'm saying their public image does not indicate anything close to what you are saying. You're just spewing out your ass. All of his kids work their asses off. Google Eric Trump and Saint Jude's children's hospital. He did a lot of good. Ivanka Trump women's causes. You are sickly in need of a fault fix.

 

[HomerJS]

If it were truly a Muslim ban, the countries containing the other 88% of the Muslims would have been included. This is an immigration pause from 7 countries, not a Muslim ban. When this administration has figured out the proper vetting program they think is acceptable, the immigration will resume. People need to stop being dolts and following all the news spin on this, which in many cases is fake news, alternate of what is reality.

The proper vetting program is to not let in any refugees bound and determined to commit terrorism.

Wait a minute isn't the current program doing this very thing??

 

[Orignal Earl]

The proper vetting program is to not let in any refugees bound and determined to commit terrorism.

Wait a minute isn't the current program doing this very thing??

Apparently they are worried about 2nd and 3rd generation terrorists..so Trump just has to figure out how to properly vet unborn children first

 

[sandorski]

Apparently they are worried about 2nd and 3rd generation terrorists..so Trump just has to figure out how to properly vet unborn children first

Mandatory Abortion for all Immigrants for 3 Generations.

 

[MongGrel]

No, I'm saying their public image does not indicate anything close to what you are saying. You're just spewing out your ass. All of his kids work their asses off. Google Eric Trump and Saint Jude's children's hospital. He did a lot of good. Ivanka Trump women's causes. You are sickly in need of a fault fix.

No, I am not spewing out of my ass.

The Clinton foundation was bogus of course.

Try again.

Next thing is you're going to try to tell me Rick Scott is a humanitarian.

I'm pretty familiar with St Jude's actually, my second wife was a QMRP at one, I doubt if one of Trumps family ever "worked his ass off" in reality near one.

 

[Commodus]

Well, there was the possibility of the Department of Justice countermanding the Muslim ban, but Trump fired the Attorney General who refused to simply rubber stamp a questionable order. Respect for law and diversity of opinion are not allowed in the Trump administration.

 

[realibrad]

It's framed to allow Saudi Arabians etc that had more involvement in 9/11 to continue to move about, imposes restrictions on people that have already been cleared in the past, and really does nothing compared to the vetting that has always been in place.

In other words it was a Trump prop from the start, which accomplished nothing other than screwing shit up, get used to it.

Trump has no concept of what he is doing, he is just randomly doing crap for photo ops.

His EOs have not been reviewed, he's just signing them for looks, and his supporters cheer when they mean little to nothing.

But there are many more Muslim majority countries that are not banned that are almost irrelevant to the US so why were they not banned?
Bangladesh
Sudan
Niger
Malaysia
Uzbekistan
Nigeria (almost 50/50)

You are talking hundreds of millions of Muslims in those countries, and yet they are not banned, and at best the most relevant one is Bangladesh. Why not ban so few Muslim countries if its just for banning Muslims? If your argument is US allies then that does not explain the countries that don't benefit us.

 

[fskimospy]

But there are many more Muslim majority countries that are not banned that are almost irrelevant to the US so why were they not banned?
Bangladesh
Sudan
Niger
Malaysia
Uzbekistan
Nigeria (almost 50/50)

You are talking hundreds of millions of Muslims in those countries, and yet they are not banned, and at best the most relevant one is Bangladesh. Why not ban so few Muslim countries if its just for banning Muslims? If your argument is US allies then that does not explain the countries that don't benefit us.

Trump seems to be focused on Arab Muslims and Iran. (I'm also not confident that he knows that most Iranians are not Arab) Trump's statements and the statements of his surrogates make it pretty obvious that the intent is to prevent Muslims from entering the US.

 

[realibrad]

Trump seems to be focused on Arab Muslims and Iran. (I'm also not confident that he knows that most Iranians are not Arab) Trump's statements and the statements of his surrogates make it pretty obvious that the intent is to prevent Muslims from entering the US.

See, calling this an Arab ban would fit better than a Muslim ban which is how its framed. When the majority of the Muslim world is not banned its weird to call it a Muslim ban. If you look at it as an Arab thing, and then look at US allies, it seems to fit better. I think there is a much better debate there than a Muslim one. Not that it matters though. Trump's motives are always in question so his opponents will see the worst in everything he does, and his allies will always defend him.

 

[fskimospy]

See, calling this an Arab ban would fit better than a Muslim ban which is how its framed. When the majority of the Muslim world is not banned its weird to call it a Muslim ban. If you look at it as an Arab thing, and then look at US allies, it seems to fit better. I think there is a much better debate there than a Muslim one. Not that it matters though. Trump's motives are always in question so his opponents will see the worst in everything he does, and his allies will always defend him.

Nah, 'Muslim ban' is fine. 'Arab ban' would be no better using your logic as his ban largely exempts Arab Christians.

His clear intent was to ban Muslims from entering the US, he just focused on Muslims from a certain area after Giuliani told him that an explicit Muslim ban would be both impossible and unconstitutional.

 

[Orignal Earl]

See, calling this an Arab ban would fit better than a Muslim ban which is how its framed. When the majority of the Muslim world is not banned its weird to call it a Muslim ban. If you look at it as an Arab thing, and then look at US allies, it seems to fit better. I think there is a much better debate there than a Muslim one. Not that it matters though. Trump's motives are always in question so his opponents will see the worst in everything he does, and his allies will always defend him.

Arab Christians are not banned
Muslims from 7 countries have been banned

 

[realibrad]

Nah, 'Muslim ban' is fine. 'Arab ban' would be no better using your logic as his ban largely exempts Arab Christians.

His clear intent was to ban Muslims from entering the US, he just focused on Muslims from a certain area after Giuliani told him that an explicit Muslim ban would be both impossible and unconstitutional.

To me, its a big difference to say his intent was to ban Muslims vs banning Arab Muslims.

That said, I will explain my stance on this, because I have not yet signaled anything so I'm sure if I don't I will be accused of supporting Trump.
Trump's goal is not mainly about US safety. I do believe he views Arab Muslims as a terrorism threat, but the way he did this was all about signaling how tough and decisive he is. In doing so, I believe he has made the US more unsafe to terrorism. I do not support his action.

I also think framing this solely as a Muslim ban only splits people mentally. Its logically not a "Muslim" ban because it does not block the vast majority of Muslims coming into the country. Even if this was a guise, it would be a huge failure. I do think Arab fits better, but its also not a perfect way to frame this. Arab Muslims is probably pretty damn close as to the best way in my opinion. So when its framed as "Muslim" ban people that do not support Trump or this action can look at this as being at best imperfect to frame a genuine issue of terrorism and US safety.

I think the US has more years ahead of fucking around in that area and will make things worse. That is partly due to the fact that the western world is willing to be so hyperbolic about this issue.