Do you know what 'Jihad' means? Look it up. That's what they're calling this war. It is a religious factor in this war on terrorism. It's what they call it when they blow up car bombs on US troops.
Cerpin Taxt
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 11,940
- 542
- 126
This is not actually the case. Science deals with approximations, models of reality. Solipsistic problems prohibit any and every scientific fact from becoming "universal" truth.
If you mean to say that the underpinnings of science are its definitions, then I suppose your statement would hold, but definitions aren't exactly "true" or "false," or at the very most they are trivially true.
Proof, as it is often said, is for mathematics and alcohol. Science does not work with proof in any rigorous sense of the word.
{snip}
There is a distinction that is ambiguous in his statement: that between a priori and a posteriori truth. The latter suffers from the solipsistic problems I mentioned above, and therefore cannot be consdered "absolute." That fact is something that is knowable a priori, and therefore can be regarded as absolute.
Can you say that absolutely?
Please keep in mind that "truth" is just a word in human language. Like all other words, humans decide what it means, and therefore in all cases truth is necessarily subjective.
gsellis
Diamond Member
- Dec 4, 2003
- 6,061
- 0
- 0
Don't know why I would consider wasting my time considering the OP... Maybe a little joke with a moral will give an example.
There once was this fundamentalist farmer living near the levy on the Mississippi. A big storm was coming and news started warning all folks in the low areas to consider leaving. Well, it starts raining and raining. The sheriff comes to the farmer's house and tells the farmer that he should evacuate because the levy will break. But the farmer refuses to go. "The Lord will protect me!"
The floodwaters rise and the farmer moves his family to the second floor. A boat comes and the folks tell the farmer they can take them to safety. The farmer refuses and tells them, "The Lord will protect me."
The waters keep rising and now the whole family is on the roof. A helicopter comes and tells the farmer that they will evacuate them, but the farmer refuses. "The Lord will protect me!"
They drown.
The farmer is at the Pearly Gates and there is St. Peter.
"Saint Peter! You and the Lord have forsaken me! I put my faith in you to protect me and now I am dead! How can you do this to one of your faithful?"
"We sent a car, boat, and helicopter. What more did you want?"
Moral - It matters not the messenger (aka a book or otherwise), but the willingness to listen. Men are not born moral, but must learn to be moral. That is part of why babies are baptized and their sins forgiven (babies are selfish by nature). But do not confuse the message in the book with those who use it for their own selfish ways. Don't confuse the message that those who misuse the Bible send with what it is trying to say.
Jesus is quoted as summarizing the whole thing when asked which was the most important Commandment. Matthew 22:36-40 - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." That passage is what the Bible is about and sums it all up. You get the Golden Rule out of it, forgiveness, etc.
And if fundies are bugging you, lookup Poppy Dixon for some fun. Gets you links to Landover Baptist Church, MissPoppy, Jesus21 - all reformed fundies. Me, never was a Fundie. I am a PK (Priest, not Preacher - and not Catholic).
There once was this fundamentalist farmer living near the levy on the Mississippi. A big storm was coming and news started warning all folks in the low areas to consider leaving. Well, it starts raining and raining. The sheriff comes to the farmer's house and tells the farmer that he should evacuate because the levy will break. But the farmer refuses to go. "The Lord will protect me!"
The floodwaters rise and the farmer moves his family to the second floor. A boat comes and the folks tell the farmer they can take them to safety. The farmer refuses and tells them, "The Lord will protect me."
The waters keep rising and now the whole family is on the roof. A helicopter comes and tells the farmer that they will evacuate them, but the farmer refuses. "The Lord will protect me!"
They drown.
The farmer is at the Pearly Gates and there is St. Peter.
"Saint Peter! You and the Lord have forsaken me! I put my faith in you to protect me and now I am dead! How can you do this to one of your faithful?"
"We sent a car, boat, and helicopter. What more did you want?"
Moral - It matters not the messenger (aka a book or otherwise), but the willingness to listen. Men are not born moral, but must learn to be moral. That is part of why babies are baptized and their sins forgiven (babies are selfish by nature). But do not confuse the message in the book with those who use it for their own selfish ways. Don't confuse the message that those who misuse the Bible send with what it is trying to say.
Jesus is quoted as summarizing the whole thing when asked which was the most important Commandment. Matthew 22:36-40 - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." That passage is what the Bible is about and sums it all up. You get the Golden Rule out of it, forgiveness, etc.
And if fundies are bugging you, lookup Poppy Dixon for some fun. Gets you links to Landover Baptist Church, MissPoppy, Jesus21 - all reformed fundies. Me, never was a Fundie. I am a PK (Priest, not Preacher - and not Catholic).
Hehe, you have such uncommon honesty to express these things but let us please go deeper:
1. When you honestly see that other people live in a box, a mental prison, you must infer that it's also true of you.
2. Therefore any pillar of absolutes you construct for yourself is just another illusion.
3. No pain no gain. The entire story of religion and myth tells us that the hero must face tremendous challenges and go through horrible pain. 'In the sea are riches beyond compare, but if you seek safety it is on the shore." Only the insane are sane. The insanity you speak of is both temporary, a paradox, and an illusion, the collapse of which leads to a different but fundamental absolute, a deeper truth for which all our illusions are a substitute.
Let us examine your story from a different point of view:
We were put down as children and made to hate ourselves. We because various egos and not who we really are. What is this ego? It is a substitute for self respect, the attachment of the self to things in the world called good. We were conditioned to be good little boys and girls and to join all the finest teams. My race, my religion, my party, my family, my team, my country, and all the other things I own are the greatest of the great because I was made to feel like a worthless nothing.
So any fool who goes looking for truth and is honest is doomed. He will see first that all the people around him are living in a dream, that all their absolutes are a joke. And that will lead him to the conclusion that the same is true for him.
Naturally this will lead to a frantic search for truth, just as you say, but in the end, it seems to me, one will find either grace, or the realization that everything is a lie. The overwhelming depression and even madness that results is nothing but the surfacing of ones deepest feeling that one is actually worthless just as we were made to feel. In other words we come to the truth of what we really feel in a backward and round about way. We are stripped of the illusion that we are OK because we have destroyed the props our Ego used to keep truth at bey. It is here at last we arrive bereft of all illusions and hope, aware that life has no meaning at all. All of our dreams and ideals and hopes were only illusions and lies and it is here that the ego dies when you fact that truth and all of your pain head on and realize there is no exit from any of it.
There is no hope and no escape and all you can do is collapse and surrender. And suddenly then you can see that meaning and its need are meaningless too. Stripped of all that can be taken you are left only with what you have, the infinite potential for love that is the birthright of every being. Suddenly all the love you ever wanted and sought for yourself and others 'out there' comes pouring our of you. A switch is flipped and the universe turns on. You and the Beloved are one.
1: Of course, that was the point of my post. Ryan seemed to think he had superseded the box. I was stating that it's easier to see the limitations of others than yourself.
2: My pillar of truth may be relative, but that does not mean that Truth as a whole is relative. It just means that we as humans can never be certain that we've attained it, since all we have to compare by is our own personal preconceptions, and whatever we are able to infer about others from their words. Since most people are able to agree about certain basic things (gravity, etc), we can be reasonably sure that it's an absolute, independent of the observer. Further observation of those who disagree can solidify this...can those who don't believe in gravity, fly? If so, I may be seriously wrong about the objectivity of that so-called "law".
I suppose the existance of an unprovable absolute Truth is a rather futile argument, but it's a very human train of thought.
My childhood was never like that. I guess there are upsides to being raised by hippies.
Originally posted by: jagec
1: Of course, that was the point of my post. Ryan seemed to think he had superseded the box. I was stating that it's easier to see the limitations of others than yourself.
2: My pillar of truth may be relative, but that does not mean that Truth as a whole is relative. It just means that we as humans can never be certain that we've attained it, since all we have to compare by is our own personal preconceptions, and whatever we are able to infer about others from their words. Since most people are able to agree about certain basic things (gravity, etc), we can be reasonably sure that it's an absolute, independent of the observer. Further observation of those who disagree can solidify this...can those who don't believe in gravity, fly? If so, I may be seriously wrong about the objectivity of that so-called "law".
I suppose the existance of an unprovable absolute Truth is a rather futile argument, but it's a very human train of thought.
My childhood was never like that. I guess there are upsides to being raised by hippies.
My dear Sir, the meaning of life and other existential questions have nothing to do with laws like the law of gravity. Are you saying that because there may be laws that seem absolute that your answers to the meaning of life may be valid when all around you you can see that the answers other people have are not? Hehe, the logic of that escapes me.
As to the feelings of worthlessness you got as a child, I can only say that you have no idea because it's the last thing anybody wants to know and that truth is buried very very very deeply. But you yourself know better than others that it is there because you already have admitted you can sense the 'Madness' that would overcome you if you abandoned your defenses.
gsellis
Diamond Member
- Dec 4, 2003
- 6,061
- 0
- 0
Points to my post. God gave us free will and the ability to choose. It is not his fault that we ignore the messages. I believe in God, but I have also been told that lions and rattlesnakes are dangerous. It is not my job to test God and ignore what I have been told is going to be a Darwin moment (yep, believe in evolution too). Nowhere in the Bible do I remember it saying we must be sheep. And using the Bible and God's name to relieve yourself from using what God gave you, free will and the ability to choose, is a slap in the face to God as I see it.
Hehe, exactly.
You hold a theory of free will because somehwere it says you have it, but you act at all times in any other sphere except the book acquired one as if you don't. When the lion appears it is you who wills yourself to sh!t in your pants, no? ---------
Everywhere I look all I see are machines. If you want to have free will I would suggest you make your will the will of God. All you need do is surrender your will to what really is. In that way you, your questions, your answers, and all your theories will all disappear. You and your entirety will be the cause of all that is and there will be no you but that cause.
You must drive differently than I do. I just get in and tell the auto-pilot within me where I want to go and he does the rest. If I had to drive I would have a wreck. He drives and I enjoy some radio and loot at the trees. Occasionally I'll scream as he jerks me across three lanes to avoid a crash.
meltdown75
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2004
- 37,548
- 7
- 81
Not going to read this thread but I guarantee doing so would only cause me to tell most people to STFU and quit debating the most obviously debatable things in the fricking world because it's just old and lame.
religion, god, hey look at me i can start a thread.
STFU
religion, god, hey look at me i can start a thread.
STFU
gsellis
Diamond Member
- Dec 4, 2003
- 6,061
- 0
- 0
You choose to stay on the highway because that is what you were told you must do and you do not wish to damage yourself or your car. There are consequences for not staying on the road and you have learned to recognize them. Someone and something told you why to stay on the road. Makes the point of why folks wrote the Bible.
Yup, before the Bible millions of donkeys were walking off cliffs because the jokers on um would fall asleep at the reins. Do unto others was rule number one of the first DMV.
TRENDING THREADS
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 248
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
Facebook
Twitter