Lets assume for a minute the memoirs didn't exist, I guess all those interviews where he said, "yea, we would have lost" -- those were fake too, huhm... With respect to the vietnam war, I have a tendency not to believe what the media says. I remember when I first saw the famous photo of a south vietnamese soldier executing a VC. I thought how bad the US and its allies were. It wasn't until years later that I read more about the picture than I understood the full situation:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cdIvPzCvwBU
Obviously, at the time, it wasn't widely publicized as to why the VC was executed. SOme of these people who are part of the MSM that caused many soldiers to die in vein; they still are alive today trying to spread their lies and justifying themselves. Thank God, they're grip on information isn't as tight as it once was.
As to whether Giap actually had written in his memoirs about losing. That maybe up to debate for some people. For me (I have some vietnamese blood), it is well know fact that most if not all important figures at that time kept memoirs (like how Benjamin franklin, washington, etc. keep one), it would be unlikely he did not write about it.
To some people who have an agenda, its like splitting hairs. If his "memoirs" were never published by a major publisher, it didn't happen. If I remember correctly, (I'm a vietnam war history nut ), he even says he wrote it in his memoirs at the time.
Believe what you want. People got spat on and died in vein because the US lost a war which they could have won. Both sides admitted this. To believe otherwise is to be stupid.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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^^ Get ahold of yourself. You just got caught spreading an urban legend, yet you say 'let's assume for a minute the memoirs didn't exist'? How about let's acknowledge that in the actual book Giap wrote he said nothing to support what you claimed he had. Also, no interview that I could locate has the same content which you claim, from Giap.
How about instead of 'assuming' the memoirs don't exist, we admit they don't exist. That is unless you're able to produce them, along with the quote from it. Same goes for his quotations saying 'yeah we would have lost'. Feel free to produce them at any time. EDIT: Oh, and please be sure to verify them this time.
Now you're trying to shift the argument towards something else because your original post has been blown apart.
Not to mention the fact that the countries that are ACTUALLY next to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, did become communist.
Yes, I know this. I was typing to fast and after I posted it, I didn't feel like correcting it since these countries are close to each other anyways.
But then a minute later, I was thinking... there's going to be some douch posting, "hey, viet is not next to thailand"..What am I going to do? I have decide to give that person an award. Its called the douche award. you have won this douche award. Congratulations.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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Geographical errors aside, this may be of interest to you, Giap has a more recent book (not the non-existent '1985' memoirs, but one that utterly contradicts what you claimed he had said :
http://findarticles.com/p/arti...2002/?tag=content;col1
General Vo Nguyen Giap: The General Headquarters in the Spring of Brilliant Victory (The Gioi Publishers, Hanoi, 2002), has been translated into English and provides a ready source of information on Giap's view of the final phases of that conflict.
"The last message comes forth throughout the text. From the outset, as Giap reflects, there was never any thought other than continuing the fight until the United States tired of its involvement in Vietnam."
http://findarticles.com/p/arti...2002/?tag=content;col1
General Vo Nguyen Giap: The General Headquarters in the Spring of Brilliant Victory (The Gioi Publishers, Hanoi, 2002), has been translated into English and provides a ready source of information on Giap's view of the final phases of that conflict.
"The last message comes forth throughout the text. From the outset, as Giap reflects, there was never any thought other than continuing the fight until the United States tired of its involvement in Vietnam."
Unfortunately you also argued that 'the dominos did stop', when all the neighboring countries to Vietnam also became communist.
Dude, history of the Vietnam war is obviously not your thing.
Then why did he say what he said years earlier about the US kicking the cr*p out of his army? Not to mention many of his compatriots saying the same thing -- some of which were video taped?
Could it be to save face since the "truth" about the viet war is starting to trickle out? Believe what you want to believe. Its all out there. All you need to do is open your mind. Don't let people like Dan Rather feed you garbage.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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I fully realize both that many in the media have their own agendas and opinions which will color their 'reporting'.
What you have to do though, is stick to verifiable facts. Just saying 'oh I read/heard/saw this X years ago' is not a solid foundation upon which to make a convincing statement.
Nothing I've seen or heard from Giap, from voluminous searches, can be verified as being remotely close to what you stated.
There are some statements from various NVA/VC veterans which are much more similar, particularly related to Jane Fonda and the anti-war movement here in the states being useful. Nothing supports the sentiment that the NVA or VC were ready to surrender however.
If you want to have a discussion which measures the various factors in an even-handed and fair way related to the way, by all means please do so, it would be refreshing.
Refer to the previously named video, The Ten Thousand Day War If I remember correctly, Its over 10hrs long. It was produced during the 80's. It has an interview with Giap and various other communist leaders saying they got their asses kick.
Like I say, I am a "vietnam war history" nut. Its due to my background. I have parents who were there around that time. It shouldn't be hard for people to find more info on this subject if they are opened minded enough to try and understand the horrible situation that we call the vietnam war from different perspectives. I was able to do it as a high school student when I was trying to learn more about my background, I'm sure you will be able to.
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
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Well, considering that the US government would have probably overthrown by that point, losing the archaic, corrupt 2 party system and outdated constitution might have been a good thing, or it could have been awful.
Might as well shake the crystal ball as others have said.
Might as well shake the crystal ball as others have said.
If this segment of the video exists, by all means link to it. I think you are confusing high casualties on North Vietnam's side (which they most certainly had in spades) with some sort of path to victory on our part.
Giap has repeatedly talked about high casualties on his side, but has never said that they would have led to a North Vietnamese surrender or an end to hostilities.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
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At best the NV would have signed a truce, regrouped and re-armed with the help of the Soviets and Chinese and started the whole shebang again. Mix and repeat. We would have been stuck in the shithole losing American Lives for a corrupt SV government fighting for people who basically laid down their arms when it was time for them to defend themselves.
The people, the SV Government, the whole thing was not worth it.
The people, the SV Government, the whole thing was not worth it.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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Surely something of that importance would be posted on Youtube or the like. The only reference I can find to a Giap interview in 'The Ten Thousand Day War' is on the FreeRepublic site, and that's in a post ABOUT a post on another site. That's it.
Saying that you are a 'nut' on something does not automatically give you enough credibility to make very serious statements related to historic leaders and major world conflicts. You have to substantiate your allegation or you will be summarily dismissed by any intelligent person.
That documentary is available on Amazon for $799, and the comments there do not reflect any such content as you describe. I am not saying categorically that Giap never said that, just that at this time it seems unlikely, as it would distinctly contradict his other confirmed written accounts of the issues we're discussing.
EDIT : I have access to a copy of this, all 13 episodes. Which episode contains the interview with the alleged comments by Giap?
Saying that you are a 'nut' on something does not automatically give you enough credibility to make very serious statements related to historic leaders and major world conflicts. You have to substantiate your allegation or you will be summarily dismissed by any intelligent person.
That documentary is available on Amazon for $799, and the comments there do not reflect any such content as you describe. I am not saying categorically that Giap never said that, just that at this time it seems unlikely, as it would distinctly contradict his other confirmed written accounts of the issues we're discussing.
EDIT : I have access to a copy of this, all 13 episodes. Which episode contains the interview with the alleged comments by Giap?
It exist, maybe you can netflix it? Its a hard video to get a hold of. I borrowed if from my library on VHS. I was shocked when I hard what I heard from Giap et. al. At the time, it blow my mind because it went against what I was told by my highschool teachers.
I think theres a CBS "vietnam war" box set from bestbuy that also has interviews. However, I don't think that it has interviews from Giap. however, there were interviews from very high level officers that comment how much the americans were beating them and how there were really in dire straits after the tet offensive.
Again, I think you are confusing high casualties with a situation that would have caused them to sue for peace. In addition you are most likely confusing other Vietnamese officers with Giap considering the large amount of writings he has put forth that directly refute your claims as to his position.
Gaip's own words refute the claim that vietnam would not surrender. So does the hrs and hrs of interviews by his own comrades, not to mention days and days worth of written and recorded words from his own foot soldiers and VC spies who were fighting with him.
Just watch the video my friend if possible. Since its really old, yea, I know its hard to get, but its really does a good job explaining the vietnam war in a somewhat unbiased manner (its still somewhat slanted towards the left though, but it is a lot more even handed than other documentaries). Another option is to watch other documentaries containing other interviews from higher ups -- like the documentaries you can get from Bestbuy, Amazon, etc. These videos are cheaper to buy and aren't as good though. However, if you separate the commentary from the facts, those videos are still educational.
The NVA/VC were on the ropes after Tet offensive. It was for the US to win. Right after the war, both the US army and the communist agree on this.
If his own words refute this, please supply them. There is no record anywhere that I can find that he says this, the only thing we have to go on is your claims about this issue... which have already proven to be HIGHLY suspect.
dphantom
Diamond Member
- Jan 14, 2005
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I, too am an amateur military historian focusing on WW II and Korea with some interest in Vietnam and the Civil War.
I am not aware of Gen Giap referring to the aftermath of Tet in so many words. There is substantial agreement that militarily, the Tet offensive was a dismal failure for NLF/NVA troops. The NLF were for all intents and purposes, a minor side show after Tet. The NVA became the mainline oppostion once they were able to rebuild.
Link
The NVA without doubt were crippled after Tet. However, the idea that we could "easily" have won is misleading at best. Westmorelands request for an additional 200k troops would have been necessary to completely secure the countryside and pose a credible threat to the North itself. This request was, of course, turned down. The result was a tactical victory for the US/ARVN but a strategic victory for the NVA.
There has been supposition that the NVA real purpose in Tet was to use the NLF as the shock troops so as to destroy or severely diminish their military capability so the North's political and military structure could take over the South. Keep in mind the NLF were the South's rebels and were hoping for their own independence and perhaps a co-equal standing with the North in some political settelment. The North, some suspect, wanted nothing to do with this so saw Tet as a way to remove the cadre of NLF troops.
Anyway, I might have some more reference material in my library that focuses on the Gen Giap statement. If I get a chance, and find anything, I will update this post.
I'm tired. You win.. whatever you want to believe. I guess I'm old fashion.
In the time of instant gratification.. instant links.. instant pron... instant proof. When debating an important subject, I guess I will need to instantly provide you with a specific, conclusive, "instant" link. I guess I don't blame you for asking in this period of "instant everything."
I do not have this link. Sorry to disappoint. If you really care enough about the subject, I hope you will find time to go to a library or book store.. maybe even try to find that award winning documentary we are discussing.
For for now, cao!! you win... you are the master of everything. You are special. You know all you need to know about the vietnam war. If you ever start talking about it at starbucks (if you do go to starbucks), you can complain how bad the US is.. how the US f'd this or f'd that.. in world where everythings "instant" -- who cares about the truth? Obviously, not those Vet who may have lost an arm or a leg.. or those Vets who are still missing in some God forsaken juggle.. or that Vet who was spit on when he arrived back home. God bless America.
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