If the UN never created the nation of Israel

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DBL

Platinum Member
Mar 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Tell me, without the backing of the UN , the financial help from the US and the West how would have Israel been able to become an Independant State?

Through force (which happened anyway)? It was going to happen, just a question of when. You do realize the area was controlled by the British who wanted to pull out?

Bravo! This is the most well thought out response here.
Why because it falls directly into line with your myopic point of view?

Uhm, how can my point of view be myopic? I'm saying that you need to look at the whole picture including the Holocaust and the expulsion of Jews from middle eastern countries. You are trying to take a very complex subject and characterize it as a simple question, while ignoring the greater issues. If anything, you are the myopic point if view.

The truth is, Red's question is silly as the creation of Israel is so much more complicated than the original question would have you believe.
The truth is, the only thing that is silly is your comment stating my question is silly.

Damn Red, your usually a lot wittier than that.

 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: Romans828
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
What do you think the world would be like now? Would we still be fighting a war against Islamic Facism/Terrorism as we are today?
History clearly teaches radical Islam IS BENT ON world conquest and will likely always be.

Uh, have you studied any of the last 2000 years of judeo-christian history?

It's shameful for me as a Christian, but at least I don't deny it. In any case, it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with human nature. People are selfish - and world conquest is one way to satisfy their egos.

 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
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Originally posted by: rahvin
Lets be clear about something, even if the UN hadn't "authorized" Israel it would still exist. The creation of Israel is a direct result of the Holocaust and the lingering anti-sematism in Europe. Had Hitler not concieved the "final solution" zionism would have been a fringe movement in the Jewish faith that would have never gained steam and acceptance. Arabs and the world owe the creation of Israel to Hitler.

Well said. It is indeed Hitlers fault that zionists gained the acceptance they have now. It's sad really, because they're dragging Judaism down a path that will cause more harm than good to it.
 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
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Originally posted by: cumhail
Every event in human history has an effect on its future, with more significant events typically causing more significant effects. Would the world be the same? Perhaps not... Would it be any better? Who knows... Would there still be a conflict between Islamic fascists who resort to acts of terrorism? If nothing else changed, probably yes.

You have to bear in mind that a lot happened at around the same time that contributed to the friction between the United States and various other countries. Its support of the way in which Israeli state was founded and evolved is not the root cause, in minds of opponents, so much as it's one of many examples of perceived imperialistic colonialism and nation-building. For much of my generation, for example, the word "terrorism" immediately brought to mind the Iran Hostage Crisis of 1979. And for most Americans, it was nothing more than an act of unprovoked aggression perpetrated by Islamic Fundamentalists. But for the Iranians, it was a direct reaction to the United States' continued encroachment on their rights to self-determination. And the reason most don't understand this stems from their ignorance of the history involved.

When a foreign country that ostensibly stands for democracy begins overturning democratically-elected governments and forcing governmental systems upon peoples who don't want it, that tends to make them unpopular in at least some people's eyes. And so for them, the United States' involvement in the overthrow of the democratically-elected administration of Mohammad Mosadeq in 1953, their willingness to destabilize the country just to score a preemptive strike against the USSR (whom they feared would step in if the US didn't first), their unflinching support of the brutal and sadistic Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, and their refusal to allow Iranian courts to try the deposed Shah for his crimes against the state all worked together to justify, in their eyes, the taking of US hostages.

More importantly, this entire episode is seen as being symptomic of a seeming willingness on the part of the US, Britain, and their allies to deliberately cause unrest and instability in an effort to better situate itself as a world power. The lines that the allied powers drew on maps in the 1940's caused unrest not only in the Arab world, but beyond. Their division of such countries as Korea and Vietnam were other such examples, with the US support not only of the French colonization of the latter, but also of the dictatorial rule of Ngo Dinh Diem and the overtuning/abortment of general elections when it seemed clear that Ho Chi Minh was going to sweep the popular vote serving to further emplify this. Examples like Vietnam/Indochina, Korea, Iran were all as contributory to the growth of anti-Ango/American sentiment in certain parts of the world as its seemingly unwavering support of Israel has been.

The problem is multi-fold and was most likely impossible to avert by the time the 1940's rolled around. It stemmed, unfortunately, from a feeling of xenophobia that had grown in the west and that made it apparent that the support of the creation of the Israeli state was not wholly altruistic. For some, it was akin to the support of the creation of the Liberian state in that it was an example of wanting to make a group of people "somebody's else's problem." For others, it was an exercise in hypocrisy as the forced displacement and relocation of one persecuted people was remedied by the displacement and relocation of another. And for yet others, it was an example of a willingness to force one nation's world order upon others without regard for how it will affect the region. And as the US railed against some countries for violations of resolutions, but refused to condemn (or let others condemn) their allies for the same kinds of violations and actions, not only was their objectivity and fair-mindnedness called to question... those questions seemed, for some, so clearly to be answered.

Just my two cents,

cumhail

Yeah, it's the constant meddling by foreign powers that's helped destabilize the region.
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
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I was going to post something, but i think i will save it for a thread not so filled with christians hellbent on demonizing muslims, sorry Red.

The truth is, Romans, Perknose showed you that fundamentalism is just stupid no matter what faith you have, you were just to dense to understand it, along with the other christian fundamentalists in this thread.
 

Romans828

Banned
Feb 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: Klixxer
I was going to post something, but i think i will save it for a thread not so filled with christians hellbent on demonizing muslims, sorry Red.

The truth is, Romans, Perknose showed you that fundamentalism is just stupid no matter what faith you have, you were just to dense to understand it, along with the other christian fundamentalists in this thread.


I was staying on topic and you can mind your own business. The dense people on this board are the ones who think they know it all
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
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Originally posted by: Romans828
Originally posted by: Klixxer
I was going to post something, but i think i will save it for a thread not so filled with christians hellbent on demonizing muslims, sorry Red.

The truth is, Romans, Perknose showed you that fundamentalism is just stupid no matter what faith you have, you were just to dense to understand it, along with the other christian fundamentalists in this thread.


I was staying on topic and you can mind your own business. The dense people on this board are the ones who think they know it all

You don't seem to get it, there isn't only one side fighting and it's not one sides complete fault, if you refuse to see the other sides reasons, you have lost the battle.

I don't know it all, neither do you, but at least i don't pretend that i do, while you do, blame it on THEM, right?
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
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Well stated, cumhail. I think you posted while I was still editing my post, which is why I didn't comment on your excellent discussion previously.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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I have no idea, and neither does anyone else. An interesting question Red, but there are other problems besides Israel, a major one being the installation of the Shah.

I think there would be "problems" but the scope and magnitude of them is beyond me.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Tell me, without the backing of the UN , the financial help from the US and the West how would have Israel been able to become an Independant State?

Through force (which happened anyway)? It was going to happen, just a question of when. You do realize the area was controlled by the British who wanted to pull out?

Bravo! This is the most well thought out response here.
Why because it falls directly into line with your myopic point of view?

Uhm, how can my point of view be myopic? I'm saying that you need to look at the whole picture including the Holocaust and the expulsion of Jews from middle eastern countries. You are trying to take a very complex subject and characterize it as a simple question, while ignoring the greater issues. If anything, you are the myopic point if view.

The truth is, Red's question is silly as the creation of Israel is so much more complicated than the original question would have you believe.
The truth is, the only thing that is silly is your comment stating my question is silly.

Damn Red, your usually a lot wittier than that.
Well this question wasn't posted to see is wittier. If you feel the question should be more complex then feel free to add to9 it are just post a reply that covers all the complexities involved. Saying that the question is silly has nothing to do with the topic at hand, it just takes away from the discussion much like Roman's whining that people are picking on him.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: rahvin
Lets be clear about something, even if the UN hadn't "authorized" Israel it would still exist. The creation of Israel is a direct result of the Holocaust and the lingering anti-sematism in Europe. Had Hitler not concieved the "final solution" zionism would have been a fringe movement in the Jewish faith that would have never gained steam and acceptance. Arabs and the world owe the creation of Israel to Hitler.

And the world owes the creation of Hitler to European appeasement. What can we learn from history?
European appeasement regarding Hitler - Hitler rise to power - WW2 - extermination of millions of Jews - 10s of millions dead in WW2 - creation of Israel - war between Israel and the Arabs - growth of Islamic terrorism - Iraq war #1 - terrorist attacks during Clinton years - 9/11 - war on terror - Iraq war #2. This timeline is not pretty because the problems were never confronted from the beginning.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: FrodoB
Originally posted by: rahvin
Lets be clear about something, even if the UN hadn't "authorized" Israel it would still exist. The creation of Israel is a direct result of the Holocaust and the lingering anti-sematism in Europe. Had Hitler not concieved the "final solution" zionism would have been a fringe movement in the Jewish faith that would have never gained steam and acceptance. Arabs and the world owe the creation of Israel to Hitler.

And the world owes the creation of Hitler to European appeasement. What can we learn from history?
European appeasement regarding Hitler - Hitler rise to power - WW2 - extermination of millions of Jews - 10s of millions dead in WW2 - creation of Israel - war between Israel and the Arabs - growth of Islamic terrorism - Iraq war #1 - terrorist attacks during Clinton years - 9/11 - war on terror - Iraq war #2. This timeline is not pretty because the problems were never confronted from the beginning.

Being an ass to germany after WWI had more to do with creating WW2 then appeasement.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: FrodoB
Originally posted by: rahvin
Lets be clear about something, even if the UN hadn't "authorized" Israel it would still exist. The creation of Israel is a direct result of the Holocaust and the lingering anti-sematism in Europe. Had Hitler not concieved the "final solution" zionism would have been a fringe movement in the Jewish faith that would have never gained steam and acceptance. Arabs and the world owe the creation of Israel to Hitler.

And the world owes the creation of Hitler to European appeasement. What can we learn from history?
European appeasement regarding Hitler - Hitler rise to power - WW2 - extermination of millions of Jews - 10s of millions dead in WW2 - creation of Israel - war between Israel and the Arabs - growth of Islamic terrorism - Iraq war #1 - terrorist attacks during Clinton years - 9/11 - war on terror - Iraq war #2. This timeline is not pretty because the problems were never confronted from the beginning.

Being an ass to germany after WWI had more to do with creating WW2 then appeasement.


Teh Winnar!
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
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Yes. Despite our mistakes with what often appears to be almost unconditional support of Israel, if Israel did not exist we would still have a presence in the region, we would still have been meddling around with the various countries there, we would have still set ourselves up to be the Great Satan. Oil in the region makes that unavoidable, regardless if Israel exists or not.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
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Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: FrodoB
Originally posted by: rahvin
Lets be clear about something, even if the UN hadn't "authorized" Israel it would still exist. The creation of Israel is a direct result of the Holocaust and the lingering anti-sematism in Europe. Had Hitler not concieved the "final solution" zionism would have been a fringe movement in the Jewish faith that would have never gained steam and acceptance. Arabs and the world owe the creation of Israel to Hitler.

And the world owes the creation of Hitler to European appeasement. What can we learn from history?
European appeasement regarding Hitler - Hitler rise to power - WW2 - extermination of millions of Jews - 10s of millions dead in WW2 - creation of Israel - war between Israel and the Arabs - growth of Islamic terrorism - Iraq war #1 - terrorist attacks during Clinton years - 9/11 - war on terror - Iraq war #2. This timeline is not pretty because the problems were never confronted from the beginning.

Being an ass to germany after WWI had more to do with creating WW2 then appeasement.

You are correct in that the resentment from the Germans ( especially millions of ex-German WWI soldiers ) about what they thought was a raw deal in the treaty of Versailles helped to fuel the anger and bitterness that made many Germans easily fall into the clutches of the pro-Nationalist movements like the NAZI movement. Of course Europe as a whole has always had a anti-Jewish bent to it for a very long time. Most of it was because of mis-guided church views and general distrust for Jews because they were not Christian and some ( orthodox Jews ) did not assimilate into the culture. Muslims only since the last maybe 50-80 years have only just begun to have a anti-Jewish/Israel view similar to what was once seen in Europe prior to the end of WW2. The majority of it has had to do with the creation of Israel as a Jewish State for Jews by Jews.

Prior to this creation of a Israeli state most Jews and Muslims had been allies against European Christian onslaughts and invasions form Europe in the Middle-East for a very long time. Of course I am not suggesting that everything was roses with these guys but you did not see a whole sale slaughter or hatred of jews like most Jews in Europe encountered throughout the history of that continent. The formation of what we today call the "Zionist" movement came out of Europe from European Jews who began to become very militant because of the hatred and discrimination that they faced in Europe. These European Jews helped spread this idea of nationalist Zionist pro-Jew agenda to Arab Jews in the M.E. who prior to the formation of Israel were afraid that what they saw in Europe during WW2 would spread to the Middle-East. This is because at the time the major counter to British colonialism became the NAZI or fascist movement which in and of itself was a pro-Nationalist movement which sought to destabilize the region against British rule. Of course most predominately Muslim nations prior to the formation of Israel actually had very large and thriving populations of Jews.

Zionist through the use of fear-mongering and their own nationalist movement managed after WW2 to get the majority of these people to leave this nations for the most part. Most of these native Middle-Eastern Jewish peoples moved to what today was known as Israel in hopes to further help in the push of the creation of a Jewish homeland for Jews by Jews after WW2. In fact prior to WW2 the population of Jews in Palestine or what today is known as Israel was about 1-5% of the population in that nation but in other countries like Iraq, Iran, Syria that population was much higher. It was not until after WW2 that you also begin to see a very large influx of European Jews from all over Europe and Russia along with Jews from the U.S. migrating to this area of the world as well. I think I'll finish this off here because I could go on and on.

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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If the UN never created the nation of Israel

What do you think the world would be like now? Would we still be fighting a war against Islamic Facism/Terrorism as we are today?

Not much different. There's not really anything special about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it just gets coverage and attention competely out of proportion which makes it look like the world's largest issue. Not to trivialize it, but it's essentially a border dispute, change the names and you could just as easily be discussing the Kashmir or Kurile Islands disputes. And in terms of the savagery of the fighting, it's nowhere near as bad as typical ethnic fighting in places like Africa, where they've gone far beyond suicide bombers into just plain genocide.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Tell me, without the backing of the UN , the financial help from the US and the West how would have Israel been able to become an Independant State?

Jewish migration to the holy land started in earnest during WWII. The UK as the administrator of the area known as Palestine (conquered from the Ottoman empire that had sided with the Axis powers) set a quota of 60,000 Jews in the holy land. The jews violated this embargo of people at every opportunity. There were numerous ships that were escorted back to italy and axis controlled powers where all the people on board were immediately shipped off to the death camps. The number of Jews in the holy land was double or tripple the offical quota at the end of the war. After the war and the Jews got out of the death camps they headed for the holy land because they no longer had homes in Europe (the lingering anti-sematism).

Many Many ships of people were snuck in and the number of Jewish population began grew. The Zionists began pushing Britain to create a state and began attacking british millitary positions. The intent at the time was to allow more Jews into the holy land, to form Israel and to get the British to leave. Because the number of Jews had reached a very significant number at this time the UN convened to solve the "Palestine problem", the security council passed a resolution that the number of Jews was now of significant number to warrant the creation of Israel (as no nation in the UN was willing to accept all the refugees, the Arab delegations walked out and refused to discuss it). The UK did not go along with the UN proposal and held out for I believe 2 more years then left in the middle of the night (litterally).Israel declared themselves a state within 2 weeks of the UK troops leaving. They were immediately attacked by 6 arab nations (I didn't bother to mention that there was an international embargo of arms sales to the Jews but not to the Arabs). The consequence of this war is the Jews won, barely. It was street to street fighting, the jews had a millitia of about 12000 men and had I believe around 5500 casulaties. They were fighting with WWI weapons against an enemy that had soviet supplied jets, tanks and munitions. I might mention that NO nation supported or aided them in any way. The only internationl support that Israel recieved after declaration is that 2 days later the US recognized them followed by most of Europe (good place to get rid of the Jews).

Israel recieved NO direct financial or millitary aid from the US until the camp david accords where the US agreed to bribe Israel and Egypt with approximately 5 billion dollars a year (combined) to stop fighting. To this day the vast majority of direct Aid to Israel is the money promissed in Camp David, with the additional assistance that has followed being simply loan guarantees (that the US makes a pretty profit on).

Israel was a direct result of the holocaust, the Jews formed the nation with NO support from the western world and won their nation by force of arms against hostile neighbors. It is silly to me that there is pervasive thought in the modern world that somehow the US or UN assisted or provided help in creating Israel.
 

MegaWorks

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
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Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Tell me, without the backing of the UN , the financial help from the US and the West how would have Israel been able to become an Independant State?


Israel was a direct result of the holocaust, the Jews formed the nation with NO support from the western world and won their nation by force of arms against hostile neighbors. It is silly to me that there is pervasive thought in the modern world that somehow the US or UN assisted or provided help in creating Israel.

no western support is this a joke? were did they get the resources, don't tell me that they came from the sky!
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: MegaWorks
Originally posted by: rahvin
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Tell me, without the backing of the UN , the financial help from the US and the West how would have Israel been able to become an Independant State?


Israel was a direct result of the holocaust, the Jews formed the nation with NO support from the western world and won their nation by force of arms against hostile neighbors. It is silly to me that there is pervasive thought in the modern world that somehow the US or UN assisted or provided help in creating Israel.

no western support is this a joke? were did they get the resources, don't tell me that they came from the sky!

What resources? The Jews were at a profound disadvantage. They were fighting with the meager weapons they could smuggle into the territory against 6 nation-states. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that the 6 Arab armies allied against Israel in 48 was the single worst collection of armed forces ever conceived. To lose the war of 48 they had to have the worst fighters, the worst leaders and the worst battle plans possible. Israel's resource was that the country was composed almost entirely of educated Jewish people from Europe and to a lesser extent America. They had skills, knowledge and the ability to impliment those against a far superior (in numbers only, as history has proved) force.

There has been a deliberate movement over the past 20 years to attempt to re-write history. To explain the Arab weakness as support for Israel by the west. It's a blatent lie. Israel is a creation of Hitlers final solution, zionism had no pull for the Jewish people until Hitler started putting them in mass graves. Once half a million Jews had collected in the holy land they created themselves a state, without the help or assistance of any nation-state. There was fund raising among Jews in the rest of the world (to help purchase the rifles they used, but mostly to buy all the initial land), but no nation state assisted in the creation of Israel. To dispute that is to attempt to alter history.
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Klixxer
I was going to post something, but i think i will save it for a thread not so filled with christians hellbent on demonizing muslims, sorry Red.

The truth is, Romans, Perknose showed you that fundamentalism is just stupid no matter what faith you have, you were just to dense to understand it, along with the other christian fundamentalists in this thread.

no, the truth is that relegious fundamentalism is a good thing, as long as your fundamentals are good. This would be why the pseudo-Christian-relegious run holy wars, but those who follow the fundamentals of Christianity *love and life* protest abortion, war, and the death-penalty.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
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Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
What do you think the world would be like now? Would we still be fighting a war against Islamic Facism/Terrorism as we are today?

Why do you hate blacks and jews?


[/stores race card]

What?
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
What do you think the world would be like now? Would we still be fighting a war against Islamic Facism/Terrorism as we are today?

Why do you hate blacks and jews?


[/stores race card]

What?

that is to say that just by suggesting things might be better off with out the Jews he's a Nazi.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Well, Red, if we hadn't given the Jews their homeland, Congress figured Utah would be almost as good. The benefits would have been pretty obvious. The Mormons would have had to go back to Ohio, or fight the Jews, in which case it would be the Mormon-Jewish Conflict today. Also, Utah would have the highest GNP in the U.S. rather than producing the world's highest percentage of weirdo right wing radicals and child abductors. On the other hand, having one state with nuclear capability would have been dicey.... And we might have missed out on the Osmonds. Sheezh...tragedy there.

-Robert