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"If the U.S. did not support Israel, 9/11 would not have happened"

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Lifer
(Quote taken from another thread).
Is this true--is our support for Israel the straw that broke the camel's back?
 
No.....just some idiot running his mouth. The terrorists that did 9/11 would hate us no matter what we do.
 
even if it was true we should have supported israel fully. if we know that 9/11 would happen if we continued to suport israel and then stopped supporting them to protect us it would be like giving the school bully your lunch money so he doesn't hit you. in the end, you go hungry and he hits you anyway.
 


<< even if it was true we should have supported israel fully. if we know that 9/11 would happen if we continued to suport israel and then stopped supporting them to protect us it would be like giving the school bully your lunch money so he doesn't hit you. in the end, you go hungry and he hits you anyway. >>

True
 
Your friendly local mouth-running idiot here. 🙂 I've gotta run off to class soon, but I wanted to say a few words in the beginning of this thread.

I am fully open to changing my mind on this; however, the responsibility is on you to do it. Ad hominem attacks will not work. Provide viable alternatives and support them.

Of course there were a number of reasons for 9/11. Are some more minor than others? How can we weight them? Did some contribute more directly towards general Arab hatred for the U.S., and others more directly to the 9/11 attacks themselves? These are all questions that I'd like to try to answer, and I know there are smart people here who can help me do it.
 
The terrorists that did 9/11 would hate us no matter what we do.

thats true, the f!cks that perpetrated 9/11 did not do it because our support for Israel. They did it because of the U.S. presence in the Holy land of Mecca. Namely our soldiers in Saudi Arabia and other mid east countries. I've heard other people on the subject and not all Palestinians are happy that osama has thied his cause to theirs.
 
Hell no it wouldn't have happened if we didn't support isreal. You see them blowing up the eiffel tower or big ben? no? You really think they like western Europe a lot more than the US? No. They didn't attack us jsut cause they don't like us, they attacked us cause we support thier enemy.

edit: rudder's got a point too, with this statement:


<< thats true, the f!cks that perpetrated 9/11 did not do it because our support for Israel. They did it because of the U.S. presence in the Holy land of Mecca. Namely our soldiers in Saudi Arabia and other mid east countries. I've heard other people on the subject and not all Palestinians are happy that osama has thied his cause to theirs. >>



But I don't know if they would have attacked us solely for keeping troops in the middle east. Also, if we didn't support Isreal, we may not even have troops in the middle east.
 


<< That's just what the isreal haters say. They will say anything because they are all crackpots.
>>



True. One of the things that bothers me about some people who question our support of Israel (in this manner) is that I feel some of them are not totally upfront about their views.

What exactly are they saying? Are they saying that we should have never supported Israel?

Let's examine what would have happened if we had never supported Israel. I believe that if we had never supported Israel then the end result would have been another slaughter of millions of Jews by the warring Arab nations that surrounded her. Because without our planes, I don't see how Israel could have survived those past wars when the Arab nations surrounded and attacked her on all three sides with their tanks.

So, basically these people are saying that it would have been better to let the Jews of the past get slaughtered even more.

What's ironic is that it now seems a lot of Europeans side more with the Palestinians and that anti-semitism is rearing it's ugly head again. What's ironic is that it was Europe's past anti-semitism that resulted in the slaughter of millions of Jews during the Holocaust. It also resulted in the millions of Jewish refuges that lead to the formation of the modern state of Israel (basically many countries did not want them and the UN promised them a homeland of their own -- I also think many Jews felt they could only be safe if they had a homeland of their own -- afterall, look at how all the other nations "protected" them against the Holocaust).

So, to me, supporting Israel was (and is) the right thing to do. They are our friends, have similar values, and are probably the only true democracy in that region. Now when I say I support Israel, it doesn't mean I agree with everything she does. I think it's absolutely wrong for Israel to continue building settlements on the West Bank. And I think that Sharon is letting his personal hatred of Arafat get in the way of doing what's best for the people of Israel and Palestine.
 
The attacks by bin Laden came from his hatred of the U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia, not from the conflict between Israel and Palestine. While many may like to find ties there, if you look at the history of bin Laden, he was kicked out of Saudi Arabia for criticizing the royal family for allowing the U.S. soldiers to make and maintain a presence in Saudi Arabia, not because he voiced an opposition to the U.S. support in Israel. No one can really say for sure what bin Laden was really thinking, but from what I have read it definitely has more to do with the U.S. presence in Saudi.
 
basically what notfred said. Osama's motivation was the US military presence in the area (i.e. Israel).
 
It's hard to say, definitely our support of Israel does contribute to the feeling most likely that the U.S. is an enemy of the Muslim world. But not supporting Israel wouldn't exactly make us best friends with them either.
 
The quote is speculative and not well supported. I would agree that US support of Israel is one of the reasons behined the 9/11 incident, but not the only reason.

Someone mentioned the US Military presence in the Middle East (S. Arabia in particular) as a reason. It is this along with the perception that the US is trying to control everything that sparks this hatred.
 
If you believe that 9/11 was born out of hatred for the U.S., and that our support for Israel is major cause for hatred of the U.S. in the region, then it follows that our support for Israel was certainly a major contributing factor, which is not to say that I think we should not be supporting Israel.

As for what truly motivates OBL himself, only he can say.
 


<< The terrorists that did 9/11 would hate us no matter what we do.

thats true, the f!cks that perpetrated 9/11 did not do it because our support for Israel. They did it because of the U.S. presence in the Holy land of Mecca. Namely our soldiers in Saudi Arabia and other mid east countries. I've heard other people on the subject and not all Palestinians are happy that osama has thied his cause to theirs. >>



Since when did Palestinians get a cause other than the destruction of Israel? thats big news if they did. Palestine is a name given to a group of people (based solely on a geographic location) that are left over from a not so long dead empire that previously had no such ethnic distinction. The sole purpose of any so called Palestinian nation is to prevent Israel from existing.
 


<<
Since when did Palestinians get a cause other than the destruction of Israel? thats big news if they did. Palestine is a name given to a group of people (based solely on a geographic location) that are left over from a not so long dead empire that previously had no such ethnic distinction. The sole purpose of any so called Palestinian nation is to prevent Israel from existing. >>



Yeah, why else would they be so concerned with a country that is less than a percent of the total land in the middle east (size of New Jersey) and has no oil? You'd think there would be better targets for these guys.

And don't give me this homeland crap. Life isn't fair...you don't always get what you think you deserve or want. The UK owned the land, gave it to the Israeli people, and that is that. You want it back? Try and defeat us. I'll admit, they are trying, but if the UN and others got off Israel's back, then you'd see why the Palastinians don't have a claim to the land. They'd all be blown to piece. Accept it, and move on. Show the world you can be productive and maybe you'll be allotted some land.
 


<< Hell no it wouldn't have happened if we didn't support isreal. You see them blowing up the eiffel tower or big ben? no? You really think they like western Europe a lot more than the US? No. They didn't attack us just cause they don't like us, they attacked us cause we support thier enemy. >>



What does Bin Laden have to do with Israel? Think about it. What possible reason would he have to hate ISrael other than being anti-semite?

Where was his outrage 2 years ago? 10 years ago?

Before 2 years ago his main beef was American Interest in Saudi Arabia his home country.

Don't fall for that excuse.
 
You morons.

9/11 would have happened no matter what the surrounding circumstances were. The day before was 10 September. When the sun came up the next day, 9/11 "happened."

Seriously, though, I think it's interesting now that some people view you as anti-Semitic if you don't support Israel.

StormRider said:

Let's examine what would have happened if we had never supported Israel. I believe that if we had never supported Israel then the end result would have been another slaughter of millions of Jews by the warring Arab nations that surrounded her. Because without our planes, I don't see how Israel could have survived those past wars when the Arab nations surrounded and attacked her on all three sides with their tanks.

So, basically these people are saying that it would have been better to let the Jews of the past get slaughtered even more.
You did a might fine job of putting words into people's mouths. I don't think many people believe that at all.

Sure, the area of Israel is the holy land of the Jews. However, if you were Arabian, and you were kicked out of your house and home and forced to move, wouldn't you be a little upset? I realize that the UN had more to do with this situation than the people that live in Israel. It's a lot easier to attack Israel than the UN though.

I'm not saying I side with the Palestinians. I don't side with either side. It's just that I hear so many people and media sources talking as if Israel is not at fault at all, and that bugs me.
 


<< Life isn't fair...you don't always get what you think you deserve or want. >>

Freedom, a Country of your own, the right to speak your mind without being persecuted. If it weren't for Arafat's bungling Leadership they might have all that now.
 
ok, I couldn't find this article online, but it's in the April issue of Reader's Digest. It was written by Fouad Ajami, director of Middle East sudies at The School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University. He's an American citizen born in Lebanon, and he is widely considered an expert on the middle east. Here's some of the article.

On Egypt:

"There is a truth about Egypt that is hard for Americans to hear. Many in this ancient land hate us. Deeply.

On it's face, this defies reason. Here, modern Islam has fashioned the most accomplished society within the Arab world. Cairo, Egypt's capital, is a geniunely cosmopolitan city. For two centuries, this state has been on a Sisyphean quest for modernity, and along the way it has become the pillar of Western influence in Araby.

But Egypt has also been home to the oldest and most tenacious movement within radical Islam, the Muslim Brotherhood. It is a nation that gave birth to some of the most zealous of Al Qaeda's leaders. Of the 22 men on the FBI's most wanted list following Sept. 11th, seven were Egyptians. It was Egypt that dispatched Sheik Omar Abdulrahman, the preacher whose sermons imspired the truck bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. And it was a son of Eygpt's middle class, Mohammed Atta, that piloted the jet that crashed into the North Tower.

All this surprises us because we think of Egypt as a partner and friend. From Richard Nixon to George W. Bush, we have given this Arab country the support and indulgence it needed - including $50 billion in foreign aid over the last quarter century. The reason is simple: Egypt, with it's vast resources of peasant soldiers, offers the most serious challenge to Israel. Without Egypt, there can be no full scale Arab-Israeli war. So we've worked hard to pull this nation within our sphere of influence.

Deep down, however, American statesmen knew the limits of this game. Egypt could never be turned into a reliable partner. The anti-Westernism first stoked there by British colonialism has simply shifted on to the United States.

There is something more to the anti-Americanism. To hear Egypt's rulers, the visable hatred of Americans is caused by U.S. support for Israel. Don't believe it. It is motivated by envy. Anti-Americanism is a convenient excuse for the economic and political failures of this bitter land".
 


<< You morons.

9/11 would have happened no matter what the surrounding circumstances were. The day before was 10 September. When the sun came up the next day, 9/11 "happened."

Seriously, though, I think it's interesting now that some people view you as anti-Semitic if you don't support Israel.

StormRider said:

Let's examine what would have happened if we had never supported Israel. I believe that if we had never supported Israel then the end result would have been another slaughter of millions of Jews by the warring Arab nations that surrounded her. Because without our planes, I don't see how Israel could have survived those past wars when the Arab nations surrounded and attacked her on all three sides with their tanks.

So, basically these people are saying that it would have been better to let the Jews of the past get slaughtered even more.
You did a might fine job of putting words into people's mouths. I don't think many people believe that at all.

Sure, the area of Israel is the holy land of the Jews. However, if you were Arabian, and you were kicked out of your house and home and forced to move, wouldn't you be a little upset? I realize that the UN had more to do with this situation than the people that live in Israel. It's a lot easier to attack Israel than the UN though.

I'm not saying I side with the Palestinians. I don't side with either side. It's just that I hear so many people and media sources talking as if Israel is not at fault at all, and that bugs me. >>



You may not like his conclusion but he premise is absolutely right. Without the US supporting Israel, the Arab states would once again try to rub out Israel as they tried in the 50s and 60s.
 


<< There is something more to the anti-Americanism. To hear Egypt's rulers, the visable hatred of Americans is caused by U.S. support for Israel. Don't believe it. It is motivated by envy. Anti-Americanism is a convenient excuse for the economic and political failures of this bitter land". >>



TOTALLY AGREE. And that goes for the rest of the Arab nations. They were once the shining power in the known world and now they are not. It is pure envy, everything else is a smoke screen.
 


<< I am fully open to changing my mind on this; however, the responsibility is on you to do it. Ad hominem attacks will not work. Provide viable alternatives and support them. >>


I find that when people generally present a challenge such as this they are generally saying "No matter what you say I'm not changing my mind."

Bin Laden is nucking futs. And that's a technical term. He will make any excuse he can come up with to justify his attacks. Things like Israel and US hegemony in Arab states are just convenient ways for him to attempt to excuse the inexcusable.

We crashed a spyplane in China's borders and we overtly lend support to Taiwan despite the fact that it's against China's wishes.
Do you see Chinese fringe groups lobbing airplanes at civilian targets? I think not.
We have wronged many people and nations and many nations have wronged us.
But there's only a select group of nutcases who choose to react to wrongdoings with terrorism.
I won't name names like Bin Laden and Arafat, but know that these nutcases exist.

They would have found an excuse for 9/11 even if Israel had never been created in 1948.

There is a complex network of events that has welled up anti-US sentiments in the mideast. Both sides have done their fair share of things the other side didn't like.
Attempting to pick one single event and calling it the proverbial straw isn't very productive.
 


<< Ad hominem attacks will not work. Provide viable alternatives >>



first off it is ad hominum, second, these islamic extremists, do hate us partially for supporting israel in their zionist movement, but they also hate the freedoms that we enjoy, they cannot fathom the fact that we are allowed to say what we want and worship how we like (or not at all) to them it is black and white, either you are with islam or you are against it, this so called jihad they are on is ridiculous, they are killing the "infidels" as they say to further islam, but if you look at their beliefs, they are "promised" a number of virgins upon entrance of paradise (after completing these terrorist acts) now does that sound like a little more incentive than simply dying for your religion? They are looking out for themselves, they wish to keep others quiet who do not think as they do, and they realize that Americans will not keep quiet about what we believe. 9/11 would still have happened even if we did not support the just cause of a zionist movement for israel, think of the significance of the buildings they hit, they hit the WTC buildings, a symbol of America's economic stability and well being, they wanted to hit us where it hurt, the pocket-book, they resent us in part because of our high standard of living, something that they cannot acheive because they are not willing to allow the marketplace of ideas flourish in their countries.
 


<<

<< I am fully open to changing my mind on this; however, the responsibility is on you to do it. Ad hominem attacks will not work. Provide viable alternatives and support them. >>


I find that when people generally present a challenge such as this they are generally saying "No matter what you say I'm not changing my mind."

Bin Laden is nucking futs. And that's a technical term. He will make any excuse he can come up with to justify his attacks. Things like Israel and US hegemony in Arab states are just convenient ways for him to attempt to excuse the inexcusable.

We crashed a spyplane in China's borders and we overtly lend support to Taiwan despite the fact that it's against China's wishes.
Do you see Chinese fringe groups lobbing airplanes at civilian targets? I think not.
We have wronged many people and nations and many nations have wronged us.
But there's only a select group of nutcases who choose to react to wrongdoings with terrorism.
I won't name names like Bin Laden and Arafat, but know that these nutcases exist.

They would have found an excuse for 9/11 even if Israel had never been created in 1948.

There is a complex network of events that has welled up anti-US sentiments in the mideast. Both sides have done their fair share of things the other side didn't like.
Attempting to pick one single event and calling it the proverbial straw isn't very productive. >>



Great Point Jzero.
 
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