If the soul is immortal, wouldn't it get desensitized to pain in hell or pleasure...

[mizzou]

I'm going to be reincarnated into a bear.

 

[GodAlmighty]

I'm going to be reincarnated into a bear.

We'll see about that. Relish your winters in the mean time.

 

[Ventanni]

Desensitivity occurs in the human body, but not with the soul. So a few things here tying in what the Bible teaches us. This is obviously a touchy subject for most, so when you read this, read as if we're having a constructive conversation.

1. According to the Bible, Hell was created for the punishment of demons who fell from grace. When mankind fell, we were given the choice of either following God, or not. God is love, and wants you to love him by choice, not by force. By choosing not to love and follow him, we make the choice to follow the same path as the demons. All mankind is destined to Hell without God's intervening (we were originally created sinless), and only through him are our sins forgiven, allowing us to enter the gates of Heaven. That leads us to #2:

2. The Bible is wholly consistent from the old testament to the new testament with how grace is given; that in order to enter the gates of Heaven, someone must die in place of us so that our sins are forgiven. In the old testament, God honored the sacrifice of "pure" animals to die for our sins. In the new testament however, God sent his own son, Jesus, to die in place of our sins so that we wouldn't have to. Since Jesus was both wholly man and wholly deity, it is the perfect sacrifice, and removed any future necessity for man to slaughter animals instead. In order to receive this grace though, one simply has to ask for it, change their ways, and give their life to God.

3. So according to the Bible, what happens if we don't choose to accept God's grace? Simple; we pay the price of our own sins. Since we are not perfect, there's no amount of punishment we can endure to pay that back, and as a result we are condemned to an eternity in Hell along with the demons. Since Hell is the one place described as an eternal separation from God, some people believe in the idea of annihilationism. But, the Bible doesn't teach this, and there's no biblical evidence supporting the idea. It also goes against #4:

4. Yes, God uses the eternal joy and bliss of Heaven and the eternal punishment of Hell as "carrots on a stick" so to speak, and Paul very often writes in the New Testament supporting this. If there's no guarantee of eternal reward in this whole deal, then what's the point of being a Christian? After all, being a Christian and walking the path of God doesn't guarantee a life without hardship, so yes, God uses, and teaches us, that Heaven is the end reward in all of this. He also uses, and teaches us, that Hell is the eternal punishment if we don't. So that leads us to #5; what does the Bible say about Hell?

5. The Bible's primary focus is teaching us how to have a better relationship with God, but it does go into just enough detail about Heaven and Hell to give us a glimpse of what they're like. Heaven is described in the same way God is: God is love, God is peace, God is joy. In Heaven, there is no sin, there is no being depressed, there is no death or loss of a loved one. On top of that, you are completely and continually filled with the love and joy of God. It's described as a feeling of bliss that simply cannot be described with words alone.

Hell, on the other hand, is described far differently. Originally created for punishment of the fallen angels, those souls who make it to Hell will experience a horrific, unending, unquenchable fire that you never get used to. There you will be hungry. You will be thirsty. You will be terribly weak. You will also be filled with a level of depression and anger that simply can't be experienced here on Earth. Certainly not a rosy place according to the Bible!

Anyway, I hope this clarifies a few things.

 

[Malak]

1. According to the Bible, Hell was created for the punishment of demons who fell from grace. When mankind fell, we were given the choice of either following God, or not. God is love, and wants you to love him by choice, not by force. By choosing not to love and follow him, we make the choice to follow the same path as the demons. All mankind is destined to Hell without God's intervening (we were originally created sinless), and only through him are our sins forgiven, allowing us to enter the gates of Heaven.

Grace alone from God grants us eternal life. However, nothing in the bible says we'll enter heaven, nor that it is a gated community. In fact, Revelation states that both Heaven and Earth will be remade into a single location and all who have received eternal life will have heavenly bodies.

2. The Bible is wholly consistent from the old testament to the new testament with how grace is given; that in order to enter the gates of Heaven, someone must die in place of us so that our sins are forgiven. In the old testament, God honored the sacrifice of "pure" animals to die for our sins. In the new testament however, God sent his own son, Jesus, to die in place of our sins so that we wouldn't have to. Since Jesus was both wholly man and wholly deity, it is the perfect sacrifice, and removed any future necessity for man to slaughter animals instead. In order to receive this grace though, one simply has to ask for it, change their ways, and give their life to God.

No one or thing has to die for grace, ever. In the old testament they sacrificed all kinds of things, even grains or whatever they had. It was not as strict as you make it out to be. The death of Jesus can be seen as a sacrifice, but you need to understand what that means. He certainly didn't ask to be killed, didn't even want it to happen. While he certainly could have prevented it, his death and suffering was a symbol. He was 100% righteous, the first such man ever to die. His suffering was in itself righteous, and that's why he told his disciples that they would have to take up their own cross to follow him. Grace, however, is not some formula or cheat code. Sacrifices didn't magically create grace, it is only given by God at his choosing.

3. So according to the Bible, what happens if we don't choose to accept God's grace? Simple; we pay the price of our own sins. Since we are not perfect, there's no amount of punishment we can endure to pay that back, and as a result we are condemned to an eternity in Hell along with the demons. Since Hell is the one place described as an eternal separation from God, some people believe in the idea of annihilationism. But, the Bible doesn't teach this, and there's no biblical evidence supporting the idea.

And some people don't believe in eternal punishment at all. Olethros, the greek word translated as destruction in the new testament, is only used in 4 verses total. All refer to the consequences of sin, but one particular verse is important. 1 Corinthians 5:5 "Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns." Another verse to look at is John 5:29 which states that all men will be resurrected, some to life and some to judgment. What does it mean? Who knows, it isn't actually talked about much in the bible. They actually spend most of the time talking about what goes on while we are here on Earth... you know, the important stuff.

The reality is we shouldn't concern ourselves to what happens when we die at all. Concern yourself with what happens while you still breathe, because this is it. This is what counts. This defines you.

 

[Jeff7]

We'll see about that. Relish your winters in the mean time.

It figures: God is a lurker.

 

[Ruptga]

Aww yeah, Malak has arrived, now the party's rockin.

 

[Malak]

Aww yeah, Malak has arrived, now the party's rockin.

I get that a lot.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

 

[shortylickens]

STOP POSTING THAT IN EVERY THREAD!

 

[Ruptga]

OP, what I really want to know is what souls are made of. Are they made of a magic invisible energy, like electricity? Because if so I would like to make a suggestion...

 

[Dr. Zaus]

STOP POSTING THAT IN EVERY THREAD!

Lawlz,
It perfectly expressed my thoughts; now STFU.

 

[hans030390]

Desensitivity occurs in the human body, but not with the soul. So a few things here tying in what the Bible teaches us. This is obviously a touchy subject for most, so when you read this, read as if we're having a constructive conversation.

1. According to the Bible, Hell was created for the punishment of demons who fell from grace. When mankind fell, we were given the choice of either following God, or not. God is love, and wants you to love him by choice, not by force. By choosing not to love and follow him, we make the choice to follow the same path as the demons. All mankind is destined to Hell without God's intervening (we were originally created sinless), and only through him are our sins forgiven, allowing us to enter the gates of Heaven. That leads us to #2:

2. The Bible is wholly consistent from the old testament to the new testament with how grace is given; that in order to enter the gates of Heaven, someone must die in place of us so that our sins are forgiven. In the old testament, God honored the sacrifice of "pure" animals to die for our sins. In the new testament however, God sent his own son, Jesus, to die in place of our sins so that we wouldn't have to. Since Jesus was both wholly man and wholly deity, it is the perfect sacrifice, and removed any future necessity for man to slaughter animals instead. In order to receive this grace though, one simply has to ask for it, change their ways, and give their life to God.

3. So according to the Bible, what happens if we don't choose to accept God's grace? Simple; we pay the price of our own sins. Since we are not perfect, there's no amount of punishment we can endure to pay that back, and as a result we are condemned to an eternity in Hell along with the demons. Since Hell is the one place described as an eternal separation from God, some people believe in the idea of annihilationism. But, the Bible doesn't teach this, and there's no biblical evidence supporting the idea. It also goes against #4:

4. Yes, God uses the eternal joy and bliss of Heaven and the eternal punishment of Hell as "carrots on a stick" so to speak, and Paul very often writes in the New Testament supporting this. If there's no guarantee of eternal reward in this whole deal, then what's the point of being a Christian? After all, being a Christian and walking the path of God doesn't guarantee a life without hardship, so yes, God uses, and teaches us, that Heaven is the end reward in all of this. He also uses, and teaches us, that Hell is the eternal punishment if we don't. So that leads us to #5; what does the Bible say about Hell?

5. The Bible's primary focus is teaching us how to have a better relationship with God, but it does go into just enough detail about Heaven and Hell to give us a glimpse of what they're like. Heaven is described in the same way God is: God is love, God is peace, God is joy. In Heaven, there is no sin, there is no being depressed, there is no death or loss of a loved one. On top of that, you are completely and continually filled with the love and joy of God. It's described as a feeling of bliss that simply cannot be described with words alone.

Hell, on the other hand, is described far differently. Originally created for punishment of the fallen angels, those souls who make it to Hell will experience a horrific, unending, unquenchable fire that you never get used to. There you will be hungry. You will be thirsty. You will be terribly weak. You will also be filled with a level of depression and anger that simply can't be experienced here on Earth. Certainly not a rosy place according to the Bible!

Anyway, I hope this clarifies a few things.

As a former devout Christian (I used to eat this stuff up like a dog, and I did grow up with it) that has since realized the absurdity of most religious thinking (it's all just BS excuses told over and over again until we believe them). Some points I have:

1. God is usually described as, well, perfect. The creator and knower of all things that have been, are, and will be (not that God operates under the concept of time, except when God does). So why would God create anything with a will to go against him/her/it in the first place if God is perfect (love, joy, grace, happiness, etc.)? That seems rather useless and sub-optimal. God had to have known all this would happen (which really defeats the entire notion of free will and us choosing to worship God).

Also, if God wants us to love him by choice, why was he so wrathful, jealous, and angry in the Old Testament? I recall him, you know...destroying a city or two (directly or indirectly), wiping out the planet with a flood, and so on. What a cool guy, especially considering God is the one that made us the sinners we are (or, rather, Satan caused us to sin, who would have had to be created by God in the first place, so, really, it all comes down to God being incompetent at his own job)! If he's perfect but can't create something even remotely perfect, that entirely defeats the notion of a perfect God (at least the type of perfect God in Christianity).

2. Wholly consistent my ass! I was told that over and over until I believed it to be true, but it's pretty apparent that the God in the Old Testament (again, wrathful, jealous, angry, vengeful, etc.) is not the same as the God in the New Testament (Love, Grace, Joy, Jesus!). And why did God put Jesus on Earth when he did? At what point did he decide sacrificing animals wasn't the best way to go about doing it? Why did he wait?

God sure sounds like a poor, petty deity if you ask me. "Hey, I know I gave you free will (except not really, lol, because I know everything that will ever happen in all existence), but if you don't worship me, I'm sending you to an eternal place that is terrible beyond anything you can imagine." You know what that sounds like? Coercion. Forcing someone to do something. Or else!!!

Love, Grace, Forgiveness, Happiness. Yeah right. I'm not going to worship something like that. If God really loved and cared for us, he wouldn't have set us up for failure in the first place like he did (unless you worship me, PLEASE, OR ELSE! And don't talk to the Satan snake, even though I made him, put him there, and knew he'd cause you to sin anyway.).

I'm sure I have more points, but those are more targeted at what you said. But, of course, I'm sure you'll throw in some sort of response regarding "God's plan" and, "As humans, we will never understand and will always doubt thanks to Satan." What a cop out. When you get down to it, religious responses never actually address all the nonsense and logical holes that cause these fairy tales to fall apart. But religious folk think they do (because otherwise their entire basis of reality crumbles around them). They just pull the religious wool over their eyes and go back to the "fact" that they will "never be able to understand" once they truly encounter all of the many things they know they can't answer deep down. And they're OK with that. Supposedly.

You know, I used to be terrified of losing my relationship with God/Jesus. You know why? Because I was scared. Christianity is not about love or joy at it's core. It's about scaring people into avoiding Hell. I didn't know it at the time, but I was just terrified. Once I spent some time outside of the Cult of Christianity, I started to try to tackle logic I hadn't before. And just like that, one day I was praying and realized none of it made sense. I could no longer prop up my beliefs on such junk logic, logic that comes from the same fallible, nonsensical source it's trying to support. Logic that humans have made up over the years to try to continue to support their beliefs.

When the day came when I woke up, I realized I had nothing to be scared of. Once you get outside that bubble, it's like waking up from a bad dream. It's like being finally free. No longer trapped under the will of a petty god.

Then you have to consider every other religion in the world. Christianity isn't the only one, and it might not even be the biggest one. And you KNOW that every person with another religion is just as convinced as you are about yours! So, who is right? Everyone thinks they are right! So, it's more likely that none of us are right...not even close. A lot of people in the world don't even get the choice to consider Christianity. What does God do with them? What about those who simply will never even know about Christianity (consider remote tribes in other countries that have had no contact with the outside world)? What does God do with them? Well, according to what I've been taught over the years, "Everyone has a chance to meet God." What? NO THEY DO NOT. If not that, I was taught they go to Hell anyway. Excuse me? That sounds fair!

I think people should find something in life that drives them. If that's religion, so be it. Unfortunately, it has the side effect of turning people into brainless God zombies that stop thinking for themselves and submit to absurdity and delusional thinking based on a fallible book.

I'm going to stop ranting now.