If tae kwon do isn't that great in a real fight...

[Craig234]

Shotokan Karate is basically an art form including punching and kicking. It doesn't really have things like throws, takedowns, clinch fighting.

So, I'm not sure what the attack on them is about. Yes, it has issues dealing with those things - it's not meant for combat against them that much.

I do recall that the top US leader of one of the Japanese schools in the US also had a black belt in Judo. Some cross training can happen.

 

[Ruptga]

Adding my two cents:

Tae Kwon Do isn't inherently bad in a fight so long as you know its limitations. TKD practitioners have some of the fastest, most powerful kicks on the planet. Considering that most street fights start at long range (as opposed to, say, clench range) entering in on someone whose specialty is kicks can be very dangerous.

That being said, TKD has some major drawbacks. As mentioned it is useless in short and clench range fighting. You also have to completely ignore sanctioned point sparring in your training as it teaches terrible habits. Watch TKD tournaments and you'll often see fighters' hands near their waists, which is terrible, but a byproduct of the training.

There are similar critiques for all fighting styles. That's why anyone who wants to be "street safe" needs to study a variety of techniques and learn how to blend them for the situation.

I know what you mean. I knew a guy in college, basically the same height and build as me, that had done TKD for years and was pretty confident that he could defend himself. We got along well but at some point I suggested that his confidence was overstated, so in the middle of a dorm we squared off. He struck a pose and I just stood there, then as he was starting to say something about taking this seriously I jumped, yelled MITSUBISHI, and threw my torso at him in one graceless motion. It ended with me sitting on him, or something very near that. He was butthurt and said that was cheating or some shit, but I think we both knew my point had been made. Training means dick if you don't play to your strengths, and fighting "proper" or giving the enemy the initiative are both serious handicaps.

 

[DrPizza]

My TKD teacher busted our asses - it wasn't uncommon to do 100's of knuckle pushups a night as punishment for bad form, etc. Fist isn't clenched tight enough - the entire class did knuckle pushups. It was started as sort of a college intramural sport - had 80 or so people the first few weeks. He whittled it down to around 20 of us after a few weeks of intense workouts. 2 years into it, one of the activities we did was to kick our opponent across the gym. We paired up with someone of equal size, they got a 6" or 8" thick pad to block with, and we had to physically move them across the gym, from one end to the other, using the force of our kicks. The person with the pad was not allowed to yield an inch - every little bit had to be worked for. And, neither you nor your partner wanted to get caught just going through the motions and moving from one end to the other - both were pretty much knocked on their ass with a demonstration on how to do it. Essentially, you could put a 6" pad on 150 pounds of concrete, and be asked to move that concrete across a gym using nonstop kicking. Physically, he was incredibly demanding of us - I'll be turning 50 years old this year - I can still do a split, thanks to the amount of stretching we went through. We didn't just get lots of belts as rewards - every belt was earned.

Our teacher didn't focus only on TKD - he even admitted to its weaknesses in many situations (including close in), so when he was in the mood, he worked with us a lot on close up techniques. And, many of the techniques were situational, such as the most likely place to get into a fight - against someone drunk at a bar. His rule: never hit a drunk person; there was no need to assert that you won that way. In my 20s, if I wanted to, and you were wearing a ball cap, I could kick the hat off your head, leaving the bottom of my foot 1" in front of your nose. (I doubt my aim/control is that good now.) In sparring, thank God for a cup - both of my feet were lifted off the ground. I rolled around the floor while my sparring partner was doing pushups for lack of control. In the case of an untrained attacker coming at me, I'm confident that my odds are a hell of a lot better than they would have been without the training - if it turns into grappling on the ground, I'm going to lose. If it's someone who has spent a few years learning some other martial art, my odds might not be so good. But, I had a hell of a lot of fun learning, and it's a lot better than nothing.

 

[sourceninja]

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[Yakk]

You know, I never got the whole bar fight martial art angle. I've been to hundreds, if not thousands of bars and I've never been in a bar fight. I've been in bar altercations, but usually it's just me backing up until a bouncer removes the drunk from my sight.

I guess I could go try to find some seedy biker bar ...

Hehehe, yeah it makes good stories though, much like shark attacks. They happen, but in so tiny a number as to be insignificant.

In any case, without desensitization training any martial art is just a sport. The word "Martial" has become a bit of a red herring IMHO.

 

[Matthiasa]

I had a similar experience, where grappling was also covered. Any dojo that isn't also covering outside of the main martial art being taught is likely doing a disservice to the students.

 

[HumblePie]

Hehehe, yeah it makes good stories though, much like shark attacks. They happen, but in so tiny a number as to be insignificant.

In any case, without desensitization training any martial art is just a sport. The word "Martial" has become a bit of a red herring IMHO.

Been apart of 4 "bar fights" in my life where I wasn't working the bar. When I was working at bars in the past there were a few more that I saw but wasn't apart of.

First bar fight I was in involved in started because my friend was talking to some girl sitting at a table alone on halloween night despite the big round table having a bunch of drinks at various seats in various states of emptiness. Turns out the rest of the table but the girl had all gone to use the restroom. When the guys got back they were pissed my friend was talking to the girl. He offered to buy them drinks but they decided to get into his face and shove him. He was never the type to back down and started a brawl. This was in Austin and the place was packed. Since the other guys friend tried to jump in, we defended our friend. Took a few minutes before the bouncers and cops to show up. One of the other guys from the other group pulled a knife and I got cut on the arm a bit stopping a stab at one of my friends. Basically it was me just pushing two guys backwards and stopping that knife before the cops showed. Then standing in front of the cops as I was the token sober white guy explaining everything to the cops. Cops let us go and took the other guys in.

Second bar fight I was sitting at Sherlocks in San Antonio with some friends and friends of those friends. One of the friend of a friend (someone I just met that night I'll refer to from here as the AC or acquaintance), had brought a girl as a date. After we had been there an hour a couple of big guys game into the place and made a beeline for our table. One of the guys was the "ex" of the girl that was brought as a date. All I know I is I was sitting on my chair and they guy decked that guy who was sitting next to me knocking him and myself over. Before I got up the other guy had smashed the AC in the face a few times really fucking him up bad. Once I got him I got behind the big dude, swept his legs out and landed on top of him while putting him into a half nelson. I held him like that until the bouncers and cops showed up. It was like riding a big bucking bronco as he easily had 50+ more pounds of muscle on him compared to me. Still, with leverage I had on him from my position there wasn't much he could do. His other friend tried him get me off before the bouncers/cops showed up, but I managed to hang on. After explaining the sequence of events to the bouncers and the cops, the 2 guys were dragged off. Bouncers and bartenders bought us a few rounds after that.

The third fight was a bit strange. I was with my normal buddies and we were trying a new bar to me called the Loft at the time. Place is closed down now though so don't bother looking it up. Basically we show up at the bar and as soon as I enter the place I see 4 guys look over at our direction and start staring me down hardcore. I had no clue who those guys were and still don't to this day. Friends and I made our way over to the bar and wait in line to order some drinks. I am at the back of the line and notice those 4 guys make their way over behind me. One of them literally comes up to my chest and glares down at me as he has a few inches on my height (I'm 6'1" for reference). My response was basically "Hello? Can I help you?" I was trying to be polite and try to diffuse whatever the hell was going on. At which point my friends notice those guys behind me and turn around to come to my aid. That's when the 4 notice I had about 8 friends with me at the time. At which point the guy staring at me says, "You lucky, normally we roll 20 deep in here." I shrug my shoulders as he and his 3 friends walk away. I promptly do my best to ignore them the rest of the time we are there, but make sure I don't use the restroom alone either. For the most part my friends and I had a good time before the bar started to close as we were doing well with some girls we ran into there. At the end of the night my friend asks for my keys so he can get something from my car he forgot so he could do something with some chick he met. While he ran off to the car in the parking lot behind the place, the rest of my group was sitting at the front door chilling and talking to the girls we had met. After a few minutes the rest of the guys (all on bikes) took off to head to where we were going to meet the girls for an after party. I start making my way around to the back parking lot to my car. That's when I noticed my friend on the ground being kicked repeatedly by 2 of the guys that came up to me earlier in the bar. They had their backs to me and were completely intent on what they were doing they didn't notice me at all. I ran up behind them, grabbed both other their heads and smashed them together with all my strength and let the force of my momentum also push me into the ground as I slammed them into the ground. I picked up my buddy and ran to the car. I turned around and didn't see them getting up yet. Ended up spending the rest of the night in the hospital as my friend's hand was smashed badly with many breaks and his head was cracked too.

Fourth fight involved that same friend. We were at the Bombay dance club and some dude was getting into his face. He said if you want to try something then to take it outside. We went to the parking lot out back. Friend and the dude fought. Friend went down first and I pulled the other guy off. Said enough and it's over. Fighting stopped and I dragged my friend home. Luckily it was only those two and no one else that got involved.

In no cases was "martial arts" really used or applicable. Especially not TKD.

 

[DrPizza]

Back in the 80's and early 90's, I used to see and hear about bar fights all the time. I avoided the bars where the fights were regular occurrences. My best friend and I used to hang out at what was considered a "biker bar" - the place had a pretty rough reputation. The guys there were the nicest guys - no one hassled anyone. The places where fights were more common where were there were a bunch of drunken asshole college guys. Smaller town, so having bouncers at the door wasn't typical.

 

[Clemenza]

people say muay thai and what not

but i really think being a good wrestler is best at avoiding getting your ass kicked

if you are a good boxer on top of it, that's all you really need

This. I'm a blue belt in BJJ and when a new guy comes in and is a former wrestler, they are usually tough to roll with. Their awareness on the ground and years of experience makes up for their lack of technical knowledge a lot of times.

I love BJJ but I'd never want it to be my sole form of self defense. It's wise to train boxing and muay thai wlong with it.

 

[Yakk]

In no cases was "martial arts" really used or applicable. Especially not TKD.

Oh they can happen, not saying they don't just pretty rare unless you are looking for something. I've only seen 1 myself, and probably avoided at least 2 or 3 because I saw the situation escalating and defused it before got anywhere serious, which I would attribute to my training to keep a calm head. Just that it's more on the rare side.

Would TKD be useful? Probably not. From my brief seminar (so to speak), TKD generally needs A LOT of space, too much to be useful in many situations today. I have experience in a few different styles and I would say jiu jitsu would probably be the most useful in most situations. Not all, but most close quarters after being too close for striking distance.

Again all the training in the world is useless if there is no desensitization training and the person just freezes at a new situation.

 

[HumblePie]

Oh they can happen, not saying they don't just pretty rare unless you are looking for something. I've only seen 1 myself, and probably avoided at least 2 or 3 because I saw the situation escalating and defused it before got anywhere serious, which I would attribute to my training to keep a calm head. Just that it's more on the rare side.

Would TKD be useful? Probably not. From my brief seminar (so to speak), TKD generally needs A LOT of space, too much to be useful in many situations today. I have experience in a few different styles and I would say jiu jitsu would probably be the most useful in most situations. Not all, but most close quarters after being too close for striking distance.

Again all the training in the world is useless if there is no desensitization training and the person just freezes at a new situation.

Last statement is the biggest when it comes to most real life situations. Not freezing. Not letting fear take hold. Thinking of a plan of action and executing it, either to fight or flight, is what makes the biggest difference in the real world. For me if I decide to fight, I'm going full in. I realize I am probably going to get hit and take damage, but I am intent on dishing out more than I get. I also focus on disabling with as much power as I can muster with anything I can. I go for eyes, ears, groin, or whatever part I can get to as fast as possible. I have no problem biting, spiting, or using what is at hand if my intent is fighting. Usually though that isn't my intent and in many of the cases I said above, I was more into subduing than fighting. That is where some "martial" arts skills takes place. But it is basically knowing how to use leverage to hold your opponent for a little while until the situation can defuse. Martial art moves are fine and dandy in a dojo or in a ring, but are less practical most of the time outside those environments. Still, learning martial arts even for those real life scenarios isn't a waste. They do help with getting most people past the fear of being hurt in a fight and committing to a plan of action for a fight. Which is really as I said 99% of what decides the outcome.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Shotokan Karate is basically an art form including punching and kicking. It doesn't really have things like throws, takedowns, clinch fighting.

Nonsense. Funakoshi included 9 throws in Toudi Jutsu from 1926

To topple a folding screen

Spinning top

Neck ring

Swallow returns

Shoulder wheel

Valley drop

Spearing through

Leg ring

Upside down hammer

But if you trained Shotokan, you very likely did not train any of the things you think it lacks, and therefore think they are not part of the system. And that is exactly what I was talking about concerning bunkai. I am ranked sandan, used to be SKIF, now UASK, certified through Cruz shihan.

Prime example for you: There are clinch fighting collar tie elbows in the heian katas, and a double collar tie clinch knee in Yondan, but you evidently have never seen them practiced elsewhere. Throws, takedowns, clinch fighting, kenstsu waza/ joint attacks, all in the katas. If dojos practiced the art completely instead of for competition, you would train all of these techniques on pads, kihon kumite, etc. because the 3 levels of bunkai include all of them.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

This. I'm a blue belt in BJJ and when a new guy comes in and is a former wrestler, they are usually tough to roll with. Their awareness on the ground and years of experience makes up for their lack of technical knowledge a lot of times.

I love BJJ but I'd never want it to be my sole form of self defense. It's wise to train boxing and muay thai wlong with it.

No one trains harder than wrestlers.

As to self defense, you must roll no-gi to go with wrestlers and have issues. Gi lets you control them a lot more. No-gi is usually the MMA class in gyms here. Which means you will learn to deal with strikes and everything else. Damned good for handling your biz.

 

[Clemenza]

No one trains harder than wrestlers.

As to self defense, you must roll no-gi to go with wrestlers and have issues. Gi lets you control them a lot more. No-gi is usually the MMA class in gyms here. Which means you will learn to deal with strikes and everything else. Damned good for handling your biz.

I usually do about one night a week of no-gi. I generally train about 4 nights a week total. My 40 year old body can't hold up to much more. Wrestlers give me trouble in both. But , if I can get them on their back I can usually do ok. It's immediately evident when a new person comes in if they have grappling experience or not. People with no mat time are so easy to dominate in gi or no-gi.

Wrestling is a sport I wish I had don't when I was younger.

 

[JEDI]

Again all the training in the world is useless if there is no desensitization training and the person just freezes at a new situation.

ahh.. is that why a black belt would freeze in a fight

 

[Yakk]

ahh.. is that why a black belt would freeze in a fight

Lots of reasons why somebody would freeze up, and there are techniques to instigate it. However from my experience outside law enforcement and military training very, very few self defence classes and martial arts dojos address this issue facing an at risk individual. Which brings me back to why I said I'd consider them as sports. Great for you mentally and physically, but less useful for other purposes.

 

[sourceninja]

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