If Saddam Survives

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
1
0
If Saddam Survives
The world will be a chaotic place if Bush doesn't liberate Iraq.

Monday, January 27, 2003 12:01 a.m. EST

The opponents of disarming Saddam Hussein are understandably raising the dangers of war: casualties, Mideast turmoil, even "chaos." We'll never deny the law of unintended consequences, though we do think the liberation of Iraq's people has the potential to do much good. But more pointedly, what about the risks of not going to war?

Specifically, what would the world look like a year from now if Saddam remains in power in Baghdad? Would it be safer and more stable? We don't think so, which is why it's worth thinking through the speculative, but hardly far-fetched, consequences if President Bush were now to follow the advice of France, Germany and Massachusetts Presidential candidate John Kerry.

Yes, U.N. inspectors might still be searching the Iraqi countryside for a "smoking gun," but everyone will understand that Saddam stood down a U.S. President. America's armed forces couldn't stay massed in the Mideast forever, and so the mobilization of January 2003 is reversed. Far from a coup against Saddam, the dictator consolidates his power with one more purge of his officer corps. His spies assassinate key members of the Iraqi opposition in the Kurdish areas of northern Iraq.

Savoring their new global clout, the French begin to argue that the inspectors have found nothing and so U.N. Resolution 1441 has been fulfilled. The Russians back them up, hoping to get repaid on their loans to Baghdad. Tony--or "Toady" as he is now derided--Blair is toppled as Labor Party leader and British Prime Minister. Slowly the international "containment" of Saddam begins to erode, just as it did in the 1990s. The Iraqi dictator finds it even easier to finance his nuclear weapons project.

Meanwhile, the dominoes of Mideast liberation that might have fallen after Saddam's ouster are moving in reverse. Iran's mullahs crack down even more on domestic dissent and accelerate their nuclear project at Bushehr. They also expand their aid to Hezbollah, which finances a resumption of Arab suicide bombers in Israel and the West Bank. Our friends in the House of Saud buy off their increasingly boisterous domestic opposition by resuming the secret financing of radical Islam.

A weakened Pakistan President Musharraf also moves to appease his growing anti-American opposition; his military stops rounding up al Qaeda operatives in Karachi and on the Afghan border, and he resumes allowing terrorists to cross the Kashmiri "line of control" into India. New Delhi rejects Secretary of State Colin Powell's promise to lean on Mr. Musharraf as "lacking credibility" and vows that the next terrorist incident will prompt cross-border retaliation.

What seems to be a world-wide sprint to obtain nuclear weapons ensues. No longer trusting U.S. protection, the Turks decide they need a nuclear deterrent against Iraq and Iran. Egypt also begins a secret program, financed by Saudis. In Asia, North Korea's neighbors rebuff America's pleas and accept Kim Jong Il's nuclear program. Bill Clinton offers to negotiate with Kim, saying he is driven to acquire nukes because of the "reckless unilateralism" of Mr. Bush. A growing right-wing faction of the LDP in Tokyo argues that the U.S. nuclear umbrella is no longer reliable and so Japan also needs nuclear weapons.

Back in the U.S., the months of diplomatic uncertainty dampen both business investment and the economy. The consumer continues to save the day, at least until the next al Qaeda attack, when it falls through the floor. Mr. Bush's tax cut dies in the Senate, as "moderates" revolt using the excuse of "the deficit." Nebraska Democrat Ben Nelson explains that "a President with 40% approval is a lot easier to say no to than one at 65%."

With the Democratic Presidential primaries only days away, Senator Kerry emerges as the front-runner. With a straight face, he is now attacking Mr. Bush from the right for failing to oust Saddam. If only the President's "cowboy" antics hadn't alienated the world, Mr. Kerry says, the Iraqi dictator would already be gone.

Yes, all of this is a worst-case scenario, but surely many of these setbacks would follow Saddam's survival in Iraq. Like it or not, the U.S. is today the enforcer of world order, and if its credibility and will are in doubt the forces of global anarchy will be unleashed. No one is ignoring the risks of war. But at this late stage, and having committed so much prestige to disarming Saddam, the U.S. failure to liberate Iraq will produce the very chaos that the opponents of war say they fear.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
That is one of the points that I have not seen addressed by the anti-remove Saddam crowd.

What will happen if Saddam is left in power?

1) How long can the sanctions on Iraq be left in force?

2) What will guarantee that Saddam will not start rearming as soon as they inspectors leave?

3) What effect will leaving Saddam in power have in encouraging terrorists to carry out attacks.

4) Will the UN be seen as relevant after having him ignore twelve years of sanctions and then get away with it?
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
What will be the effects on the region and on the world of leaving Saddam in office?

vs.

What will be the negatives if the US and Britain have to go it 'alone' to remove him for his years of defiance of the UN resolutions and tendency to acquire nuclear, biological and chemical weapons?
 

FrancesBeansRevenge

Platinum Member
Jun 6, 2001
2,181
0
0
You could never lift sanctions against Iraq as long as Saddam, and likely his sons after him, are in power.
The risk is great enough that you can't allow them to operate unabaded.
As long as Saddam and/or his regime are in power Iraqis will starve while be builds new palaces every year.

But, a war will kill many innocent Iraqi civilians.... and poor forced conscripts.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
4
76
Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
You could never lift sanctions against Iraq as long as Saddam, and likely his sons after him, are in power.
The risk is great enough that you can't allow them to operate unabaded.
As long as Saddam and/or his regime are in power Iraqis will starve while be builds new palaces every year.

But, a war will kill many innocent Iraqi civilians.... and poor forced conscripts.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I guess in cases like these you just have to go with the lesser of the 2 evils. Apparently the majority of the UN is'nt concerned that the US has already been hit with a major attack that not only crippled American economy but world economy as well. Also I find it amazing that many of these countries don't realize that Saddam won't stop at just having America as an enemy but in reality he will likely push into other countries as well.

 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
And of course, Mr. Bush is seen as weak and ineffective, thus considerably lowering his chance of re-election.


Btw, why do (some) americans pretend that they are going to war for the poeple of iraq? Who are they trying to fool, other than themselves?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
War is like religion, the desire to kill and the desire to be saved are so profound and laid upon the same feelings of worthlessness and sin that we will buy even the most assinine, absurd, and irrational beliefs to support our belief. Killing Iraqis has got to be right. We want to do it so bad. It must be the will of God. This is why we live in 1984. Peace is war.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
And of course, Mr. Bush is seen as weak and ineffective, thus considerably lowering his chance of re-election.


Btw, why do (some) americans pretend that they are going to war for the poeple of iraq? Who are they trying to fool, other than themselves?

Marty, that's nice and all but what would the affect be on the Middle East be if Saddam is left in power?

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
What will be the effects on the region and on the world of leaving Saddam in office?

vs.

What will be the negatives if the US and Britain have to go it 'alone' to remove him for his years of defiance of the UN resolutions and tendency to acquire nuclear, biological and chemical weapons?


vs.

Some third way.

We are always presented with false alternatives by people with motive. An open mind is not a trap.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What will be the effects on the region and on the world of leaving Saddam in office?

vs.

What will be the negatives if the US and Britain have to go it 'alone' to remove him for his years of defiance of the UN resolutions and tendency to acquire nuclear, biological and chemical weapons?


vs.

Some third way.

We are always presented with false alternatives by people with motive. An open mind is not a trap.

State the third way then Moonie. What is it?

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
Bush will either destroy the world if left in power.

vs.

Bush will cost us all our international credibility if we don't impeach him.
 

FrancesBeansRevenge

Platinum Member
Jun 6, 2001
2,181
0
0
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
And of course, Mr. Bush is seen as weak and ineffective, thus considerably lowering his chance of re-election.


Btw, why do (some) americans pretend that they are going to war for the poeple of iraq? Who are they trying to fool, other than themselves?

I don't think any reasonable person thinks the US is going to war first and foremost for humanitarian reasons.
Thats one of the reasons but it's well down the list under many US national interests (regional security & foothold, and secure oil supply).
Thing is though, NO war has ever been fought for purely humanitarian interests.
Everyone wants to protect thier interests.

You could likely ask a similiar question of the French: Why do (some) French pretend thier goverment's opposition to war is purely for humanitarian reasons?
Afterall, the French have many financial interests at stake in Iraq. While I have no doubt humanitarian concerns are one of the reason for French opposition it would be terribly naive to think
France isn't also protecting it's interests.

While you can question the seemingly twisted logic of an attack on a people to free a people you cannot really question the sad and sorry state normal Iraqis live in.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,891575,00.html
Morale was very low, he said, both among his fellow conscripts and among civilians. "We want America to attack because of the bad situation in our country. But we don't want America to launch air strikes against Iraqi soldiers because we are forced to shoot and defend. We are also victims in this situation."

Most of these people likely want to be out from under Saddam's nasty thumb but certainly do not want to be bombed into oblivion in the process.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Bush will either destroy the world if left in power.

vs.

Bush will cost us all our international credibility if we don't impeach him.

C'mon moonie, you don't have to prove anymore that you are an idiot.

The question again was what is the third alternative to the situation, not what mindless drivel can you spew.

I presented
1) Remove Saddam from power
2) Leave Saddam in power.

You say you have a third alternative to the situation. What is it?

 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
0
0
on the other hand, what happens if he is taken out of power? they've got tons of this stuff, i'm sure most of it would disappear and resurface again from a thousand different points and be much harder to track, at least we know where everything is right now.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
And of course, Mr. Bush is seen as weak and ineffective, thus considerably lowering his chance of re-election.


Btw, why do (some) americans pretend that they are going to war for the poeple of iraq? Who are they trying to fool, other than themselves?

Marty, that's nice and all but what would the affect be on the Middle East be if Saddam is left in power?

There'll be less American influence for sure, but not the armageddon that the article suggests. I think "scaremongering" is a great word to describe it.

But surely you don't deny that Bush made war inevitable the minute he made Iraq his top priority.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
Bravo to you Frances. Damn I knew there was a reason I liked your slippery mind. The slippery mind can't just see in black and white. We who are worthless, who see our own joke, we can see the joke in everyone. Bless your worthless ass. In you, I feel the heat. Don't blush. :D
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
You could never lift sanctions against Iraq as long as Saddam, and likely his sons after him, are in power.
The risk is great enough that you can't allow them to operate unabaded.
As long as Saddam and/or his regime are in power Iraqis will starve while be builds new palaces every year.

But, a war will kill many innocent Iraqi civilians.... and poor forced conscripts.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Those same people will die if he is left in power.
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
0
0
Originally posted by: etech
That is one of the points that I have not seen addressed by the anti-remove Saddam crowd.

What will happen if Saddam is left in power?

1) How long can the sanctions on Iraq be left in force?

2) What will guarantee that Saddam will not start rearming as soon as they inspectors leave?

3) What effect will leaving Saddam in power have in encouraging terrorists to carry out attacks.

4) Will the UN be seen as relevant after having him ignore twelve years of sanctions and then get away with it?

1. Indefinetly since Saddam doesn't seem to mind having them and the UN seems resolved to do nothing more.

2. LOL, I wouldn't be surprised if he's brewig up some chemicals as we speak.

3. Not sure, but you know Saddam will start force feedings his people more BS 'bout how he kicked the Great Satan's @ss.

4. Saddam (as well as every other leader who chooses not to abibe by the UN's voluntary mandates) already sees the UN as irrelevant. Mean while, the UN will play up how it kept the peace, kept the US in check, and play down the fact that Saddam violated yet another UN resolution w/o consequence and is still producing chemical and biological weapons unchecked.

But hey, if you ignore a problem it's bound to go away on it's own sooner or later right?


Lethal
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
If Saddam were to survive in some remote African country, that would be fine, and to my way of thinking a good thing IF it happened before a war. I would chip in a few bucks for a ticket for him.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
charrison: Those same people will die if he is left in power.
----------------

Isn't that what damned if you don't means.

The fly in that ointment is that we more or less can predict what 800 cruse missles can do. We can't be sure how many will die if he is left in power. The world turns and changes. The biggest enemy imaginable, the USSR is no more. Every human birth brings a fresh tabula rasta made in the image of God. Every child is a revolution. Love cannot be destroyed. We are all the same. What wrote the constitution was born into every Iraqi heart. We do not know the future.