If Plasma is superior to LCD, and cheaper, why is it not selling well?

[Anubis]

how many 65" tv that is above 165lbs are there??? 50" Panny U series is about 68 lb.

http://www.panasonic.com/business/plasma/TH-50PH30U.asp


65" Panny is 132lb

http://www.panasonic.com/business/plasma/TH-65PF30U.asp#specs

according to amazon the 65" ZT 60 is 136lbs
which is odd as the 65 VT is only 93 and the 2 of them are not that different

 

[iRONic]

My new 65" Panny S60 plasma tips the scales @75lbs sans stand.

 

[sdifox]

according to amazon the 65" ZT 60 is 136lbs
which is odd as the 65 VT is only 93 and the 2 of them are not that different

Bezel :biggrin:

 

[slag]

You move TV about all the time? Any TV can kill a small child.

Yes, I moved it a few times from the dinner table to the floor, to the couch, and then downstairs. With a comparable sized LCD tv, I can do this by myself. With this beast, it's not going to happen. It's so heavy, there are hand holds built into the rear cover.

 

[slag]

how old is that plasma? ill agree that if it weighs that much it can get annoting but they are generally much lighter now

Old, but I'm happy with the picture.

 

[sdifox]

Yes, I moved it a few times from the dinner table to the floor, to the couch, and then downstairs. With a comparable sized LCD tv, I can do this by myself. With this beast, it's not going to happen. It's so heavy, there are hand holds built into the rear cover.

lulz, invest in some moving straps if you move it all the time.

 

[Anubis]

Bezel :biggrin:

lol the ZT is actually smaller

its gotta be a missprint as the panny site it at 97 with stand

 

[Thebobo]

LG plasmas are rough. Low QC, bad reflective coating, so-so blacks.

Panasonic is best with the deep blacks and amazing motion resolution. But at least Samsungs have really nice colors and good sharpness.

LGs shouldn't be bought. Personally I think everything LG makes that has a screen has QC issues. It like the company's tradition. Crappy plasmas, LEDs, Nexus phones with issues, etc.

Lo they are not crappy, I am very happy with my 60" LG plasma and as are many new LG owners .

I understand it not some high end fancy AV magazine but consumer reports gives the same rating for the Panny ST60 and the LG 6700. Both are CR best Buys but the LG is $450 cheaper.

Also the LG A8600 is the highest rated LED TV for this year, must be real crappy.

 

[Anubis]

the only really issues ive ever seen with LG plasmas is that they are mirrors

 

[Oyeve]

"Plasma" sounds like it could kill you if it leaked.

I dont know. I am well versed in technology and chose LED/LCD over plasma just for weight and price at the time. With some tweaking of settings I can LED/LCD to look exactly the way I want it to. But I am not the average consumer.

On another note, which tech is more green as far as disposing? Is plasma more poisonous in a landfill over led/lcd? I think that could also be a factor.

 

[sdifox]

"Plasma" sounds like it could kill you if it leaked.

I dont know. I am well versed in technology and chose LED/LCD over plasma just for weight and price at the time. With some tweaking of settings I can LED/LCD to look exactly the way I want it to. But I am not the average consumer.

On another note, which tech is more green as far as disposing? Is plasma more poisonous in a landfill over led/lcd? I think that could also be a factor.

Noble gases are not all that dangerous. Maybe Radon, but there is very little of it.
There is a little mercury in there, but it just needs proper disposal.

You are well versed in technology huh?

 

[Oyeve]

Noble gases are not all that dangerous. Maybe Radon, but there is very little of it.
There is a little mercury in there, but it just needs proper disposal.

You are well versed in technology huh?

my "plasma" statement was meant aas a joke as in consumers think it sounds evil. That statement didnt come off correctly apparently.

 

[JoeBleed]

my 60" plasma only weighs 75 lbs, its also onlu ~2 inches thick

they really are not THAT much heavier/thicker unless you have a really old one

This, when i bought my cfl LCD a few years ago, it was shortly before panasonic put out their next model plasma. when just looking at them in the store later they were thinner, about as heavy, and put out as much or less heat than my LCD with the back light turned up to max.

If i hadn't already bought my LCD, i would have bought a pany plasma. The plasmas before it were heavier and put off more heat.

Sucks pany is discontinuing their plasma. was thinking about getting one for the bedroom. Can't spare the money right now though. maybe on clearance next year.

 

[Aithos]

This is a serious question and I'm hoping I can get a serious answer. I don't understand why plasma is not as successful as LCD/LEDs. I mean, anyone that goes into a Best Buy or other electronic shop and look at the LCDs on display can see that a lot of what's showing looks like some type of post-production edit. The quality is incomparable to plasma but somehow people are buying these screens. It would make sense if they were cheaper per size but they're not. So, what gives?

Why did Beta lose to VHS? Why did HD-DVD lose to Bluray? The answer to your question isn't simple and there are multiple factors but the shortest version is this: The consumer is (largely) ignorant. That means that marketing, salespeople, word of mouth and a bunch of other factors come into play besides quality and price. Keep in mind that the market has shifted a lot over the last 15 years and what is true today isn't the same as what was true back then.

When Plasma was released it was (and still is) superior in picture. The early Pioneer TVs blew LCD screens and CRTs out of the water. Unfortunately, they were also in the $10k-$15k range and so no one except the very wealthy owned them. They also had a horrible problem with burn-in which still rears its head in the form of image retention and continues to be a "concern" for average consumers despite being a non-issue for the better part of ten years. There are also misconceptions about power use, glare and "refresh rate" that marketing companies (LCD) have used against the technology.

The simple fact is this: if consumers were more educated and put a tiny bit of effort into planning/setup Plasma TVs would be the standard and everyone would own them. Their picture quality, contrast, black levels, colors, accuracy and speed are all superior. Do they have a glass screen? Yes, and if you have direct sunlight they reflect a good amount. However, an LCD with direct sunlight SUCKS TOO, direct sunlight ruins pictures no matter what. So why choose an inferior picture all the time because of reflection some of the time? Especially considering you can choose where to set up your TV, use blinds/curtains or just plain monitor your viewing habits and watch more at night than during the day.

At any rate, I'll leave you with this: I sold TVs for several years before I got a job in IT using my degree, most people I sold to wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between my $5000 Pioneer Elite Kuro and a $500 LG if I set them up in certain ways. Salespeople determine what you buy a large portion of the time, only the most informed consumers are immune and even they can be swayed by an even more informed salesperson. The salespeople in this country (as a whole) are not very informed, most retail "chains" have people who are hourly and are completely untrained. They have no stake in their job and they don't care what you buy as long as you buy something. The few who do (or did) care (like me) are underpaid and overworked and eventually move on for better jobs that will treat them with value. The only place left where you can find good advice from a trained and knowledgeable person is the internet. Forums like this one (and AVS forums) sometimes have people with real knowledge.

Just be careful who you listen to, often the most adamant opinion is the most uninformed one. I trust the professional calibrators over at AVS forums myself, and when I was looking for accurate information to stay up to date that's where I would go. It's sad that Plasma TVs are slowly losing the war, now that Panasonic is dropping their lineup Samsung is the only decent Plasma left on the market...It is a sad time for TVs, I will very likely have to buy a spare set in the next year or two to pack away so that when my Pioneer kicks the bucket I have something else that isn't LCD to fall back on. I can't handle an LCD TV any more than a crappy matte finish on a computer monitor

Edit:

"Plasma" sounds like it could kill you if it leaked.

I dont know. I am well versed in technology and chose LED/LCD over plasma just for weight and price at the time. With some tweaking of settings I can LED/LCD to look exactly the way I want it to. But I am not the average consumer.

On another note, which tech is more green as far as disposing? Is plasma more poisonous in a landfill over led/lcd? I think that could also be a factor.

I don't know when you bought your TV but for more than the past 5 years Plasma has been just as thin/light as LED (which is also LCD) and have been considerably less expensive for the picture quality. You also can't fully calibrate an LCD in the same manner as a Plasma and the limitations of the Liquid Crystal pixels mean that you cannot make the picture as good as a Plasma. It's like comparing a TN panel to an IPS panel, there just isn't any comparison. You say you're not an average consumer? I disagree, you're exactly an average consumer. You don't even know what you're missing because you've never used a properly set-up Plasma TV for any period of time to see the difference. I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm just making a point. This is the same discussion I've seen over 120hz vs IPS for gaming. To someone who hasn't extensively used both you won't be able to tell much of a difference because you're just not used to the difference, the same thing happens in audio and other hobbies.

The people who are extremely informed generally all go the same route for a reason, if you don't, that's fine. If you're happy, I'm glad you're happy. But don't sit here and say something completely subjective like "I can tweak my LED/LCD to look exactly the way I want" when that statement does nothing but show that you're not well versed in the technology and you are an average consumer. It's very contradictory. If you were well versed and not average you'd own a Plasma and have it professionally calibrated.

99% of the people I sold TVs to had no idea what their TV "should" look like. They didn't know there was a standard for picture quality similar to the "THX" audio standard, they don't know that when a movie/TV producer shoots video they use a standard for what it is supposed to look like. The people who let me help calibrate their sets (often Samsung 7000+ series models with unlocked calibration settings similar to the Pioneer Elite models) were amazed at how much better the picture looked once they got used to it. It made my day every time someone came in to the store or called just to tell me how incredible it was that they noticed how bad their friends TVs looked. Most people have their TVs too bright, too saturated and very unnatural with high motion settings (like 120/240hz) that insert too many frames that don't exist in the source (nearly all sources are under 30fps).

 

[Anubis]

This, when i bought my cfl LCD a few years ago, it was shortly before panasonic put out their next model plasma. when just looking at them in the store later they were thinner, about as heavy, and put out as much or less heat than my LCD with the back light turned up to max.

If i hadn't already bought my LCD, i would have bought a pany plasma. The plasmas before it were heavier and put off more heat.

Sucks pany is discontinuing their plasma. was thinking about getting one for the bedroom. Can't spare the money right now though. maybe on clearance next year.

im not sure how long into next year they will still be around. I was at BB this past weekend chatting with the Magnolia people and they dont plan on having them much past Feb. He said they are getting all those new OLEDs in the spring and i was curious if they were going to set up one of those next to the ZT series and such he was not very confident they would have any left to do that with.

Some of the available 4k TVs do actually look pretty nice, if you ignore the fact that they cost like 6 grand. I was curious about how they were selling and the BB store i was at said they sold their 50th that morning

 

[Oyeve]

Edit:



I don't know when you bought your TV but for more than the past 5 years Plasma has been just as thin/light as LED (which is also LCD) and have been considerably less expensive for the picture quality. You also can't fully calibrate an LCD in the same manner as a Plasma and the limitations of the Liquid Crystal pixels mean that you cannot make the picture as good as a Plasma. It's like comparing a TN panel to an IPS panel, there just isn't any comparison. You say you're not an average consumer? I disagree, you're exactly an average consumer. You don't even know what you're missing because you've never used a properly set-up Plasma TV for any period of time to see the difference. I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm just making a point. This is the same discussion I've seen over 120hz vs IPS for gaming. To someone who hasn't extensively used both you won't be able to tell much of a difference because you're just not used to the difference, the same thing happens in audio and other hobbies.

The people who are extremely informed generally all go the same route for a reason, if you don't, that's fine. If you're happy, I'm glad you're happy. But don't sit here and say something completely subjective like "I can tweak my LED/LCD to look exactly the way I want" when that statement does nothing but show that you're not well versed in the technology and you are an average consumer. It's very contradictory. If you were well versed and not average you'd own a Plasma and have it professionally calibrated.

You are kinda coming off as a dick. How do you know I have not used plasma extensively? Do you know me? I have in fact used plasma for years. It just so happens that my current LED/LCD tv, once tuned for my taste and like, is what I want. No where have I compared plasma to lcd so please get off your high-horse. And for the record, during the beta-vhs wars I always chose beta. Then went laserdisc, never went VHS.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Lo they are not crappy, I am very happy with my 60" LG plasma and as are many new LG owners .

I understand it not some high end fancy AV magazine but consumer reports gives the same rating for the Panny ST60 and the LG 6700. Both are CR best Buys but the LG is $450 cheaper.

You must mean the 6500 as the 6700 is not a plasma. And the 6500 gets three stars on CNET:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-60pa6500/4505-6482_7-35145447.html

I trust CNET because they do things like actually measure the black levels.

Also the LG A8600 is the highest rated LED TV for this year, must be real crappy.

I don't know about "highest rated LED TV" for 2013 when CNET has it at three stars:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-55la8600/4505-6482_7-35560502.html

In both cases the LG tv has worse black levels than competitors. No reason to buy their TVs unless cost is your primary concern.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Do they have a glass screen? Yes, and if you have direct sunlight they reflect a good amount. However, an LCD with direct sunlight SUCKS TOO, direct sunlight ruins pictures no matter what. So why choose an inferior picture all the time because of reflection some of the time? Especially considering you can choose where to set up your TV, use blinds/curtains or just plain monitor your viewing habits and watch more at night than during the day.

There is where plasma lost. LCDs and LEDs are much better in sunlight or in a bright Best Buy store. That was enough to win.

You can say "well just stick the TV in a mancave with curtains!" But the trend the last decade is open concept housing with a wall of open windows.

People want their TVs to be part of the aesthetics of the room- hanging over their fireplace or bar. Then don't want their TV watching to define the aesthetics of the room, even if in reality watching TV takes up a large portion of their day and the experience could be optimized with curtains.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Lo they are not crappy, I am very happy with my 60" LG plasma and as are many new LG owners .

I understand it not some high end fancy AV magazine but consumer reports gives the same rating for the Panny ST60 and the LG 6700. Both are CR best Buys but the LG is $450 cheaper.

Also the LG A8600 is the highest rated LED TV for this year, must be real crappy.

Nothing LG makes is the "highest rated", not in picture quality.

They're okay for what they are, which is a second-to-third tier TV, but they aren't close to Panasonic and Samsung in Plasma, and they're not close to Samsung in LCD, either.

Put it like this: Samsung and Panasonic's lowest tier Plasma is still better than LG's top model.
If you go to CNET's "best TV" rankings, you won't find an LG on any list. "best picture", best LED", "best value", nothing. Even Vizio has a few in there.

Here's what CNET said about the 6700:

The good: The LG 60PH6700 offers decent value with a large screen and a lot of features for a little over a grand; shadow detail and color performance are excellent; some of the best audio from a TV at this price; the Magic Motion remote is fun; cable box control works very well.

The bad: Black levels are poor compared with both LCDs and plasmas at the same price. The screen lacks a bright-room filter and picture suffers in the light, and 3D glasses aren't included in the package.

The bottom line: The LG 60PH6700 offers plenty of extras and a mostly good picture but the plasma competition is a little too fierce.

In contrast, the ST60 is CNET's highest-rated tv, EVER. It's only a hair below the VT/ZT, which look exactly the same other than the ZT's better filter and resulting brightness in well-lit rooms.
Pretty sure Consumer Reports recommends the ST60 as their "best buy", too.

 

[olds]

I am reading this thread on my 60" VT60. The last TV I owned (purchased in 2005) was a Panasonic 50" plasma. Before that it was a 32" Hitachi UltraVision.
I like the deep blacks of plasma. I am not concerned on how it looks during the day. Who cares how Jerry Springer and Judge Judy look? I watch TV in the evening when I can watch good shows on HBO, Showtime, etc. Well, with the exception of 49er games. But I watch those on "tape delay" on my DVR so I can fast forward through the commercials.

As far as the popularity, it's like Aithos said: consumer ignorance. It's like Budweiser being the most popular beer. People have been brainwashed by marketing into thinking the have to have it. It's the only beer I flat out refuse to drink.

 

[Thebobo]

Nothing LG makes is the "highest rated", not in picture quality.

Pretty sure Consumer Reports recommends the ST60 as their "best buy", too.

Actully no its the LG http://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-60LA8600-led-tv

I'll trust Consumer reports more then Cnet thank you. CRs has an extensive testing facility for TVs and has been spot on for over 30 years but the final rating is for overall value not just the PQ.

But here is the other problem I have is brand loyalty and smugness towards other "lesser" brands. I remember back in the DAy when only Sony could be a good TV which was utter crap and you paid about 20% more just for the name.

 

[Thebobo]

You must mean the 6500 as the 6700 is not a plasma. And the 6500 gets three stars on CNET:
.

The 6700 is indeed a Plasma

LG Electronics 60PH6700 60-Inch 1080p 600Hz Active 3D Plasma HDTV with Smart TV

 

[poofyhairguy]

I'll trust Consumer reports more then Cnet thank you. CRs has an extensive testing facility for TVs and has been spot on for over 30 years but the final rating is for overall value not just the PQ.

30 years ago we didn't have the tools we have today to test the quality of TVs. Black levels, contrast ratios, motion resolution, etc. All these things can now be measured and CNET does. That is why they are trusted for TV reviews.

I would trust CR if I was buying a vacuum cleaner or a lawnmower. If I am buying electronics like a laptop or a TV I want specs and I want performance numbers to compare by.

But here is the other problem I have is brand loyalty and smugness towards other "lesser" brands.

It is the same brand loyalty someone like an Intel gets. A superior product that can be measured to be superior has those who will advocate for it.

Panasonic have been cranking out the best black levels in plasma for a while. Since that is a huge component of picture quality their TVs have been preferred for a while.

The 6700 is indeed a Plasma

LG Electronics 60PH6700 60-Inch 1080p 600Hz Active 3D Plasma HDTV with Smart TV

Ah, good point I was wrong there.

And this model gets three and a half stars, a little better set:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/lg-60ph6700/4505-6482_7-35560968.html

 

[LegendKiller]

Actully no its the LG http://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-60LA8600-led-tv

I'll trust Consumer reports more then Cnet thank you. CRs has an extensive testing facility for TVs and has been spot on for over 30 years but the final rating is for overall value not just the PQ.

But here is the other problem I have is brand loyalty and smugness towards other "lesser" brands. I remember back in the DAy when only Sony could be a good TV which was utter crap and you paid about 20% more just for the name.

There is no fucking way I'd trust CR for reviews for almost anything. It's hilarious that when you go on their site the user reviews are horrible vs the CR reviews. This was repeated when I went to buy a washer/dryer, a vacuum, and many more purchases. When it used to be a far smaller planet with a lack of good review material I could see CR as a huge advantage. However, the Internet has spawned more thorough and diverse reviewers that do a far better job than CR. CNET is a great review site for TVs but is among several I would look at.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Don't see why anyone would go with just one reviewer.

The ST60 is pretty much universally rated at a top buy, or THE top TV for value.

You cannot even approach it for the price.