If It's a Muslim Problem, It Needs a Muslim Solution

[athithi]

If It's a Muslim Problem, It Needs a Muslim Solution

The Muslim village has been derelict in condemning the madness of jihadist attacks. When Salman Rushdie wrote a controversial novel involving the prophet Muhammad, he was sentenced to death by the leader of Iran. To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden.

When I suggested something along the same lines, I received a lot of criticism from people like Aimster. I hope there is less resistance to somebody with better credentials. I agree with Mr. Friedman that unless the Muslim world makes Islamic fundamentalism a shameful thing, people like OBL are always going to find recruits from the muslim world.

Just to be clear, this is not criticism against Islam, but a charge of delinquency against the individuals that are driving forces of the religion.

 

[conjur]

No fatwa against bin Laden, eh? I like Friedman's writing but, in this case, it appears he's missed some news:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150066,00.html

MADRID, Spain ? Muslim clerics in Spain issued what they called the world's first fatwa (search), or Islamic edict, against Usama bin Laden on Thursday, the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings, calling him an apostate and urging others of their faith to denounce the Al Qaeda (search) leader.

The ruling was issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the country's 1 million-member Muslim community. The commission represents 200 or so mostly Sunni mosques, or about 70 percent of all mosques in Spain.

[...]

The commission's secretary general, Mansur Escudero, said the group had consulted with Muslim leaders in other countries, such as Morocco ? home to most of the jailed suspects in the bombings ? Algeria and Libya, and had their support.

"They agree," Escudero said, referring to the Muslim leaders in the three North African countries. "What I want is that they say so publicly."

The fatwa said that according to the Quran "the terrorist acts of Usama bin Laden (search) and his organization Al Qaeda ... are totally banned and must be roundly condemned as part of Islam."

It added: "Inasmuch as Usama bin Laden and his organization defend terrorism as legal and try to base it on the Quran ... they are committing the crime of 'istihlal' and thus become apostates that should not be considered Muslims or treated as such." The Arabic term 'istihlal' refers to the act of making up one's own laws.

Escudero said a fatwa can be issued by any Muslim leader who leads prayer sessions and as he serves such a role, he himself lawfully issued the edict.

He called it an unprecedented condemnation of bin Laden. "We felt now we had the responsibility and obligation to make this declaration," he said in an interview.

"I hope there is a positive reaction from Muslims," he added.

Asked if the edict meant Muslims had to help police try to arrest the world's most wanted man ? who is believed to be hiding along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan ? Escudero said: "We don't get involved in police affairs but we do feel that all Muslims are obliged to ... keep anyone from doing unjustified damage to other people."

I'd call that a major body.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: conjur
No fatwa against bin Laden, eh? I like Friedman's writing but, in this case, it appears he's missed some news:

That's a step in the right direction, but not quite the death sentence fatwa that was issued towards Rushdie. I think it's good that atleast a small portion of the muslim world is seeking to speak out against OBL, but the time for chastising is long gone.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: athithi
If It's a Muslim Problem, It Needs a Muslim Solution

The Muslim village has been derelict in condemning the madness of jihadist attacks. When Salman Rushdie wrote a controversial novel involving the prophet Muhammad, he was sentenced to death by the leader of Iran. To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden.

When I suggested something along the same lines, I received a lot of criticism from people like Aimster. I hope there is less resistance to somebody with better credentials. I agree with Mr. Friedman that unless the Muslim world makes Islamic fundamentalism a shameful thing, people like OBL are always going to find recruits from the muslim world.

Just to be clear, this is not criticism against Islam, but a charge of delinquency against the individuals that are driving forces of the religion.

why would anyone cricize that? i was just talking with someone about the same thing.
the Muslim world needs to have a strong spokesperson or persons who rise up and lead with a strong message against the violence, and hate. they need a Martin Luther King.

 

[syzygy]

exactly. these posturing condemnations that have flooded in, on cue, from various (supposedly reputable) sectors of the muslim world are worthless if there
is no systematic plan of action to incinerate these savages.

if these 'nice' muslims denounce, then they need to feel the urgency to act in their own self-interest, and for the sake of the future of their faith, to stamp out
the extremists who are trying to re-define the nature and role of the religion.

be wary of any 'liberal' traits from the mouths of these condemners (i.e. are they talking out of both sides of their mouths; condemning yes, but also piping in
conditional sympathies for these savages ?). there is no room for fudging, mincing of principle, equivocation, dissimulations, or cowardliness. is this wrong and
intolerable, without qualification, on every level ? yes ? no ? just burn them extra crispy wherever they may found.

 

[sandorski]

Well, depends on what a "Fatwa" is. It' certainly wasn't a widespread issue, being from Iran only and I assume from one Cleric or Group of Clerics. I also don't hear much about other Fatwas, are they common or are they reserved for very special issues?

Many Muslim leaders have condemned Bin Laden and the actions of Al Queda, but it seems to me that most Terrorists in Al Queda and other Mid-Eastern groups simply don't recognize those Clerics as having any authority over them. For the most part I'd hazzard a guess that these various organizations ae very much closed to external Muslim influences and as such are their own Micro-Sects. These groups and even the total membership of these groups is a very small part of the Muslim world and I think the Author really doesn't grasp that. Hence his call for the action he has suggested.

Consider the IRA for a moment. They were Roman Catholics, Irish, and clearly Terrorists. I've never heard anything but condemnation of their actions from the Pope or even Ireland, yet they still persisted in doing what they did. Despite this, Britain didn't blame government/People of Ireland or the Pope for the actions of these Terrorists. The author seems to be of the mind that the Irish and Pope were part of the problem in his suggestion of a solution.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: syzygy
exactly. these posturing condemnations that have flooded in, on cue, from various (supposedly reputable) sectors of the muslim world are worthless if there
is no systematic plan of action to incinerate these savages.

if these 'nice' muslims denounce, then they need to feel the urgency to act in their own self-interest, and for the sake of the future of their faith, to stamp out
the extremists who are trying to re-define the nature and role of the religion.

be wary of any 'liberal' traits from the mouths of these condemners (i.e. are they talking out of both sides of their mouths; condemning yes, but also piping in
conditional sympathies for these savages ?). there is no room for fudging, mincing of principle, equivocation, dissimulations, or cowardliness. is this wrong and
intolerable, without qualification, on every level ? yes ? no ? just burn them extra crispy wherever they may found.

:roll:

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: athithi

Originally posted by: conjur
No fatwa against bin Laden, eh? I like Friedman's writing but, in this case, it appears he's missed some news:

That's a step in the right direction, but not quite the death sentence fatwa that was issued towards Rushdie. I think it's good that atleast a small portion of the muslim world is seeking to speak out against OBL, but the time for chastising is long gone.

not all fatwas are given birth by the same charged feelings. some appear too doctrinal, others cut across public sentiment. khomeini was stoking popular resentment and scoring easy philosophical points. these spanish clerics are stating the obvious in a noble way to a mass of people who have, at best, mixed feelings about osama and his kind. this isn't going to carry far.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Well, depends on what a "Fatwa" is. It' certainly wasn't a widespread issue, being from Iran only and I assume from one Cleric or Group of Clerics. I also don't hear much about other Fatwas, are they common or are they reserved for very special issues?

Many Muslim leaders have condemned Bin Laden and the actions of Al Queda, but it seems to me that most Terrorists in Al Queda and other Mid-Eastern groups simply don't recognize those Clerics as having any authority over them. For the most part I'd hazzard a guess that these various organizations ae very much closed to external Muslim influences and as such are their own Micro-Sects. These groups and even the total membership of these groups is a very small part of the Muslim world and I think the Author really doesn't grasp that. Hence his call for the action he has suggested.

Consider the IRA for a moment. They were Roman Catholics, Irish, and clearly Terrorists. I've never heard anything but condemnation of their actions from the Pope or even Ireland, yet they still persisted in doing what they did. Despite this, Britain didn't blame government/People of Ireland or the Pope for the actions of these Terrorists. The author seems to be of the mind that the Irish and Pope were part of the problem in his suggestion of a solution.

The blame is not that of cause, but of lack of prevention.

Despite this, Britain didn't blame government/People of Ireland or the Pope for the actions of these Terrorists.

That's a neat oversimplification and obfuscation of the issue. Nobody is blaming the Islamic leaders for being the cause of OBL's actions. But they surely carry blame for not attempting to stop it. If the Muslims cannot stop OBL, who will?

Friedman answered that too:

Because there is no obvious target to retaliate against, and because there are not enough police to police every opening in an open society, either the Muslim world begins to really restrain, inhibit and denounce its own extremists - if it turns out that they are behind the London bombings - or the West is going to do it for them. And the West will do it in a rough, crude way - by simply shutting them out, denying them visas and making every Muslim in its midst guilty until proven innocent.

For the first time in my life, I feel sorry for the Western powers - damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Infohawk]

Friedman is extremely overrated. He sucks. Why is he surprised by these recent bombings? He is naive (something you can also see from his support for the Iraq war). His dumb logic could be used against the West too. "If Westerners want to be safe they need to condemn their leaders in Iraq." Garbage generalizing. Is this a war with Islam or isn't it? He makes it sound like it is. Of course, it isn't. It comes down to non-religious geopolitical concerns.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Friedman is extremely overrated. He sucks. Why is he surprised by these recent bombings? He is naive (something you can also see from his support for the Iraq war). His dumb logic could be used against the West too. "If Westerners want to be safe they need to condemn their leaders in Iraq." Garbage generalizing. Is this a war with Islam or isn't it? He makes it sound like it is. Of course, it isn't. It comes down to non-religious geopolitical concerns.

I consider myself to be opposed to the Iraq War. I too believe it has nothing to do with Islamic fundamentalism and if anything, it worsened the situation. But - Islamic fundamentalism is not always reactionary. It is arises from an inherent desire to subjugate and impose - something like their own 'manifest destiny'. The bombing of innocent Westerners will not stop if the West stops interfering in the Muslim world (though it would help). To pretend that all of Islamic fundamentalism will disappear if the US leaves Iraq is what is naive. Please, for the record, state your position loud and clear - will Islamic fundamentalism stop if the West stops interfering in the ME?

 

[Zedtom]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

the Muslim world needs to have a strong spokesperson or persons who rise up and lead with a strong message against the violence, and hate. they need a Martin Luther King.

Where are the high-profile household-name Muslims of the world? When I see an athlete or movie star convert to Islam and change their name, I would think that they would be interested in defending their religion.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: athithi
Please, for the record, state your position loud and clear - will Islamic fundamentalism stop if the West stops interfering in the ME?

Stop where? There is going to be Islamic fundamentalism in muslim world regardless of what the US does. The question is whether we can stop muslim attacks on the US.

If the US stopped meddling in the ME and stopped supporting Israel you wouldn't see anymore organized attacks on the US. (Yeah, there might be a small chance of some lone nut doing something but the big attacks require resources and funding. )

To pretend that all of Islamic fundamentalism will disappear if the US leaves Iraq is what is naive.

Fabulous, but I'm not pretending that. Like I said, there will be fundamentalism in the muslim world for a while just like there has been for centuries.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: athithi

Originally posted by: conjur
No fatwa against bin Laden, eh? I like Friedman's writing but, in this case, it appears he's missed some news:

That's a step in the right direction, but not quite the death sentence fatwa that was issued towards Rushdie. I think it's good that atleast a small portion of the muslim world is seeking to speak out against OBL, but the time for chastising is long gone.

Now, lets get this right. Wacko rightwing leaders in Iran, issure a fatwa against Rushdie (It's a friggin good read btw), but you're upset when totally normal people do not do it against Bin Laden?
Should normal people issue fatwa's?

Are you serious?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Consider the IRA for a moment. They were Roman Catholics, Irish, and clearly Terrorists. I've never heard anything but condemnation of their actions from the Pope or even Ireland, yet they still persisted in doing what they did. Despite this, Britain didn't blame government/People of Ireland or the Pope for the actions of these Terrorists. The author seems to be of the mind that the Irish and Pope were part of the problem in his suggestion of a solution.

The Pope spoke out against their terrorism a long time ago.

 

[imported_Tango]

100% correct. The only effectvive solution would be moderate muslims get control over those few extremists. This is not going to happen untill Europe and the US disengage from Israel-Palestine and the ME in general. And this means it will NEVER happen...

 

[Proletariat]

Its not going to happen. I personally believe that deep down most Muslims empathize on some level with these radicals, even if they are 'moderate'. Radicalism is bred in times of disenfranchisement. Change has to come from within, yes, but there has to be and outside addressal of imperialism in the West, or we are going to have to take an unhypocritical stance on terrorism and start attacking these radicals at their homes and killing their protectors (The ISI, Saudi princes etc.). When we really start fighting this 'War on Terror' remind me to sign up for the army.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: athithi

Originally posted by: conjur
No fatwa against bin Laden, eh? I like Friedman's writing but, in this case, it appears he's missed some news:

That's a step in the right direction, but not quite the death sentence fatwa that was issued towards Rushdie. I think it's good that atleast a small portion of the muslim world is seeking to speak out against OBL, but the time for chastising is long gone.

Now, lets get this right. Wacko rightwing leaders in Iran, issure a fatwa against Rushdie (It's a friggin good read btw), but you're upset when totally normal people do not do it against Bin Laden?
Should normal people issue fatwa's?

Are you serious?

Neither was I asking for responsibility from ordinary people for OBL's actions, nor was I asking the common man to issue a death sentence against OBL. I am asking for the leading lights of the Islamic religion to offer a more powerful alternative to adherents than OBL. I made that quite clear in my OP. Moshquerade had the right idea when he/she gave the example of MLK.

BTW, the fatwa was not merely issued because a nutjob or two in fancy robes preferred it. It was nearly the unanimous voice of Muslims all over the world. Issuing a fatwa is not the comprehensive solution and I agree that lack of issuing a fatwa alone does not constitute negligence either. Rushdie's fatwa was merely stated as an example of the discrepancy in the extent of reaction by Islamic religious leaders.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: athithi

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: athithi

Originally posted by: conjur
No fatwa against bin Laden, eh? I like Friedman's writing but, in this case, it appears he's missed some news:

That's a step in the right direction, but not quite the death sentence fatwa that was issued towards Rushdie. I think it's good that atleast a small portion of the muslim world is seeking to speak out against OBL, but the time for chastising is long gone.

Now, lets get this right. Wacko rightwing leaders in Iran, issure a fatwa against Rushdie (It's a friggin good read btw), but you're upset when totally normal people do not do it against Bin Laden?
Should normal people issue fatwa's?

Are you serious?

Neither was I asking for responsibility from ordinary people for OBL's actions, nor was I asking the common man to issue a death sentence against OBL. I am asking for the leading lights of the Islamic religion to offer a more powerful alternative to adherents than OBL. I made that quite clear in my OP. Moshquerade had the right idea when he/she gave the example of MLK.

BTW, the fatwa was not merely issued because a nutjob or two in fancy robes preferred it. It was nearly the unanimous voice of Muslims all over the world. Issuing a fatwa is not the comprehensive solution and I agree that lack of issuing a fatwa alone does not constitute negligence either. Rushdie's fatwa was merely stated as an example of the discrepancy in the extent of reaction by Islamic religious leaders.

Shaheed Bhagat Singh was better than Gandhi.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Shaheed Bhagat Singh was better than Gandhi.

When I was younger, it wasn't cool to think of Gandhi as great either.

 

[azazyel]

I am just going to jump right in here with both feet. Does anyone realize that there is no hierarchy in Islam? There aren't popes or cardinals or anything. Mullahs are people who have studied the Koran and Imans are just prayer leaders. The Ayatullah Khomeini is the one who issued the Fatwa against Rushdie and is elected himself as an Ayatullah which is a position that he pretty much created the inserted into the government.

 

[azazyel]

Also, if Jerry Falwell condemed me, I would laugh my arse off.

 

[piasabird]

The muslim solution is to cut the head off of everyone who disagrees with you.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Christian solution is to denegrate and vilify everyone who disagrees with the Bible.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: azazyel
Also, if Jerry Falwell condemed me, I would laugh my arse off.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1012-03.htm

That article saddens me. Falwell is such an idiot. His homebase is only about 2 hours away from where I live, too.