If intelligence was wrong on Saddam/Iraq, maybe Osama wasnt involved in WTC!!!

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
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:Q

plausible? no? why yes? why not?

intelligence was wrong about Saddam/Iraq, and they were supposed to be monitoring them for... lets see... 12 years or so? well, atleast from 1992 till the period when Saddam (supposedly) kicked the inspectors out. then again the UN inspectors went in and had not found any WMD.

intelligence pointing to Osama... a flaky video tape miraculously found in a demolised house - intact :Q and a number of audio/video tapes broadcasted on Al-Jazeera. hmm... i think that could well be a hollywood style production. or maybe not? :confused:

dont flame this post. think. and write down contrustive opinion about the issue. please leave democrat/republican, liberal/conservative arguments away.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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I'll play

The hijackers are Al Qaida, and Osama heads that, and historically major attacks come from the top of the organization. Sorry, but the agencies aren't that bad. They will take the bullet for the administration though.
 

wkabel23

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 2003
2,505
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Osama was involved in the WTC. Everything we have points to that and there has been nothing to disprove it. Unless the Bush admin. made that up, I'm 99.9% sure Osama and Al-Qaida were behind 9/11. Faulty intelligence in Iraq had to more to do with neglect by officials in the Bush admin. rather than bad intel IMO.

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
:Q

plausible? no? why yes? why not?

intelligence was wrong about Saddam/Iraq, and they were supposed to be monitoring them for... lets see... 12 years or so? well, atleast from 1992 till the period when Saddam (supposedly) kicked the inspectors out. then again the UN inspectors went in and had not found any WMD.

intelligence pointing to Osama... a flaky video tape miraculously found in a demolised house - intact :Q and a number of audio/video tapes broadcasted on Al-Jazeera. hmm... i think that could well be a hollywood style production. or maybe not? :confused:

dont flame this post. think. and write down contrustive opinion about the issue. please leave democrat/republican, liberal/conservative arguments away.



Bin Laden 'voice' lists hijackers
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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If it wasn't OBL and Al Qaeda and with the support of the Afghani Taliban government then it was the greatest coup perpetrated on the Afghani government by either internal or external forces wanting to enact change in Afghanistan. And, they pulled it off. But, OBL said it was him and his dwarfs who are responsible and I can't imagine him doing that for any reason other than bringing recognition to him and his cause. I also gotta figure he's still at work in Iraq and elsewhere in an effort to 'enact his understanding of the will of Allah' or feed his ego.. either way he's a menace needing squished. (legally)
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
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ya know, ive often wondered what if we were wrong in accusing al Queda and placing the blame on them. but oh well, it doesnt really matter because they arent exactly an innocent orginization [innocent of any sort of terror activity], now are they?
 

Zephyr106

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
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FBI Most wanted page on Bin Laden

CAUTION

USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

No specific mention of September 11th... Has this page just not been updated? Would Muslims, presumably an intended target of this type of "poster", care more about bombings in Africa than the 9/11 hijackings?

Zephyr
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
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FBI Most wanted page on Bin Laden


Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CAUTION

USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No specific mention of September 11th... Has this page just not been updated? Would Muslims, presumably an intended target of this type of "poster", care more about bombings in Africa than the 9/11 hijackings?

Zephyr

Interesting observation... from the website:

Poster Revised November 2001

By the way, how many people had heard of Al-Qaeda before 9/11? I dont remember anyone taking Al-Qaeda's name when the embassies were bombed in Africa or the USS Cole bombing in Yemen. I do remember the finger being pointed at Osama bin Laden, but I dont recall a mention of Al-Qaeda :confused:
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
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i ve heard of Al Qaeda before sept 11. They were mentioned before when we lobbed cruise missles into afghanistan.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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People talked about Al Qaeda when I was in Indonesia and Malaysia in 2000.

While it's conceivable that US intelligence sux great big donkey balls . . . Osama appears to take credit for 9/11 and his minions consider it a great success.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Sultan

Interesting observation... from the website:

Poster Revised November 2001

By the way, how many people had heard of Al-Qaeda before 9/11? I dont remember anyone taking Al-Qaeda's name when the embassies were bombed in Africa or the USS Cole bombing in Yemen. I do remember the finger being pointed at Osama bin Laden, but I dont recall a mention of Al-Qaeda :confused:

Mention of "Al-Qaeda" in August, 1998 CNN Report
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,912
6,790
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What I did was to take a morass of unrelated facts and than draw my own conclusions which I present here as facts and the "TRUTH: Osama was involved in the WTC
 

Nietzscheusw

Senior member
Dec 28, 2003
308
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German TV had the famous Osama video translated again by german and arab translators and it appeared that he did not say "I did it" but "it has been done", to put it briefly. Basically in his particular arab dialect the passive and active mode are very close, and the translators paid by the Pentagon systematically translated what Osama said in the active mode...to please their employer?
The conclusion of the translators paid by german TV: nothing in the famous video proves that Osama is guilty.
Now that is a big problem because it is totally illogic for a terrorist group to engineer such a huge act of terror and not to claim it did it. In their minds they should be proud of it and use it to bolster their cause in the minds of those this terror act pleased because they are happy to see US americans die and the USA attacked.
We also know that Osama lost his base in Afghanistan because of 9-11.
And his goal has always been to become the ruler of Saudi Arabia. He is above all a politician driven by the ambition shared by most politicians on Earth: to become the leader of their country.
A problem with Al-Qaida is that since the CIA and the pakistanese ISI funded Osama and the Talibans from the start, it is perfectly obvious that Al-Qaida has been infiltrated by the CIA and ISI. Which makes it easy for them to manipulate small groups of stupid would-be terrorists to commit acts of terror.
Is it what really happened in 1993 and 2001, and on other occasions?
For example in Italy, the most horrible terrorist bombings of the past 25 years where always immediately said to have been commited by extreme left wing terrorists. Well, the problem is that years later it has been found that they all had been engineered by the italian secret services which employed extreme right wing militants. The motive was to discredit the left wing parties, to prevent them from winning elections and reaching power.
In Algeria, officers who defected from the army and who are now in exile testified that on many occasions they had been ordered by their superiors to disguise as terrorists and to conduct terror attacks on the population of villages. Prominent figures of the terrorist groups are also said to be secret service operatives.
The CIA is considered the largest terrorist group on Earth by many human rights organizations. It is responsible for example of organizing a military coup in Indonesia against an elected and neutral president; the militaries then killed between 1 and 3 million indonesians. Now the question is: how can you trust the CIA regarding Al-Qaida? How can you trust a terrorist organization to tell you the truth about another terrorist organization?
 

Nietzscheusw

Senior member
Dec 28, 2003
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Mistranslated Osama bin Laden Video - the German Press Investigates

by Craig Morris

A GERMAN TV show found that the White House's translation of the "confession" video was not only inaccurate, but even "manipulative".



ON December 20, 2001, German TV channel "Das Erste" broadcast its analysis of the White House's translation of the OBL video that George Bush has called a "confession of guilt". On the show Monitor, two independent translators and an expert on oriental studies found the White House's translation not only to be inaccurate, but "manipulative".

Arabist Dr. Abdel El M. Husseini, one of the translators, states,

"I have carefully examined the Pentagon's translation. This translation is very problematic. At the most important places where it is held to prove the guilt of Bin Laden, it is not identical with the Arabic."

Whereas the White House would have us believe that OBL admits that "We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy?", translator Dr. Murad Alami finds that:

"'In advance' is not said. The translation is wrong. At least when we look at the original Arabic, and there are no misunderstandings to allow us to read it into the original."

At another point, the White House translation reads: "We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day." Dr. Murad Alami:

"'Previous' is never said. The subsequent statement that this event would take place on that day cannot be heard in the original Arabic version."

The White House's version also included the sentence "we asked each of them to go to America", but Alami says the original formulation is in the passive along the lines of "they were required to go". He also say that the sentence afterwards - "they didn't know anything about the operation" - cannot be understood.

Prof. Gernot Rotter, professor of Islamic and Arabic Studies at the Asia-Africa Institute at the University of Hamburg sums it up:

"The American translators who listened to the tapes and transcribed them apparently wrote a lot of things in that they wanted to hear but that cannot be heard on the tape no matter how many times you listen to it."

Meanwhile the US press has not picked up on this story at all, reporting instead that a new translation has revealed that OBL even mentions the names of some of those involved. But the item is all over the German press, from Germany's Channel One ("Das Erste" - the ones who broke the story, equivalent to NBC or the BBC) to ZDF (Channel Two) to Der Spiegel (the equivalent of Time or The Economist. More surprisingly, as I write the following site appears on Lycos in German: http://www.netzeitung.de/servlets/page?section=1109&item=172422 - but nothing under lycos.com in English.

Instead, we read in The Washington Post of Friday, December 21, 2001 (the day after the German TV show was broadcast) that a new translation done in the US

"also indicates bin Laden had even more knowledge of the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon than was apparent in the original Defense Department translation.... Although the expanded version does not change the substance of what was released, it provides added details and color to what has been disclosed."



I'll say. Aren't there any reporters in the US who speak German (or Arabic, for that matter)? An article in USA Today of December 20, 2001 sheds some light on why the original translation might not be accurate: "The first translation was rushed in 12 hours, in a room in the Pentagon".

So why didn't the new US translation find the same discrepancies as the German translators did? Read the article in USA Today against the grain:

"Michael, who is originally Lebanese, translated the tape with Kassem Wahba, an Egyptian. Both men had difficulties with the Saudi dialect bin Laden and his guest use in the tape, Michael said."

Why can a Saudi translator not be found in a multicultural country like the US, especially with the close business relations between the US and Saudi Arabia? [George] Bush Sr. probably knows any number of them himself.

Of course, if we ever hear about the German analysis in the US press, the reactions will be that some will never believe that OBL is behind the attacks no matter what you tell them. But actually, Americans are just as stubborn in refusing to face facts.

One moderator on Fox News complained to his interviewee that the European media were focusing too much on civilian casualties in Afghanistan. (I wondered which European languages this moderator could speak; a few weeks later, he happened to say on his show that he had had "three years of German". This, he claimed, would allow him to "do the show in German.")

His interviewee responded that, yes, the Taliban were very savvy manipulators of the media. So there we have it: Europeans get their information straight from the Taliban Ministry of Propaganda.

Craig Morris is a translator living in Europe.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
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Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
German TV had the famous Osama video translated again by german and arab translators and it appeared that he did not say "I did it" but "it has been done", to put it briefly. Basically in his particular arab dialect the passive and active mode are very close, and the translators paid by the Pentagon systematically translated what Osama said in the active mode...to please their employer?
The conclusion of the translators paid by german TV: nothing in the famous video proves that Osama is guilty.
Now that is a big problem because it is totally illogic for a terrorist group to engineer such a huge act of terror and not to claim it did it. In their minds they should be proud of it and use it to bolster their cause in the minds of those this terror act pleased because they are happy to see US americans die and the USA attacked.
*sigh*, from the video transcript:

UBL: (...Inaudible...) "we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy,
who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that
would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all.
(...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas
in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the
plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for."

[....]

UBL: The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a
martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn?t know
anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not
reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.

Am I missing something? The transcript does not state either "I did it" or "it has been done". To the contrary, we find admissions alluding to the planning and preparation.

One more time for the tin-foil hat brigade:

(Transcript and annotations independently prepared by George Michael,
translator, Diplomatic Language Services; and Dr. Kassem M. Wahba, Arabic language
program coordinator, School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins
University
. They collaborated on their translation and compared it with translations done
by the U.S. government for consistency. There were no inconsistencies in the
translations
.)

Further comments from CNN

The tape was released by the Bush administration after it weighed concerns over protecting U.S. intelligence sources and methods against the goal of building the public case against bin Laden. Its delay was complicated by the poor audio quality of the tape.

The Bush administration called on four outside, non-government translators to review the tape, to counter possible claims that the White House had doctored it or provided an inaccurate translation.

The tape's release is central to informing people in the outside world who don't believe bin Laden was involved in the September 11 attacks, said Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Alabama, the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. "I don't know how they can be in denial after they see this tape," he said.

Raghida Dergham of the Arabic-language newspaper Al-Hayat said the tape is "a strong piece of evidence."

"It's not going to convince everyone. You will always have some skeptics out there. But it will strengthen the view of those who have thought all along that bin Laden and al Qaeda had been involved," Dergham said. "I think that the level of denial will decrease."
 

Nietzscheusw

Senior member
Dec 28, 2003
308
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And anyway how do you know it really was Bin Laden on this bad quality video and not just a man with a beard like his playing the part of Osama for the ISI/CIA?
First look at his page from CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/ret.bin.laden.videotape/index.html
Take a close look at the nose! Use a software to zoom in!
Now go to this page:
http://www.rense.com/general18/face.htm
If you believe your eyes then you cannot believe the US government and media infiltrated by the CIA as admitted by the director of the CIA in front of the Senator Church led committee.
WMD, Osama, JFK...how many more lies in US history? Pearl Harbour, Gulf of Tonkin,...
Reminds me of the Soviet Union...
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
And anyway how do you know it really was Bin Laden on this bad quality video and not just a man with a beard like his playing the part of Osama for the ISI/CIA?
And just what level of video quality do you actually expect from some "jihad" blabbering freak? Cinematic quality ala Hollywood?

Reminds me of the Soviet Union...
I don't recall the United States building walls to contain its citizenry, complete with machineguns installed in towers along hundreds of kilometers of border. However, I do recall patrolling the damned thing.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
And anyway how do you know it really was Bin Laden on this bad quality video and not just a man with a beard like his playing the part of Osama for the ISI/CIA?
First look at his page from CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/ret.bin.laden.videotape/index.html
Take a close look at the nose! Use a software to zoom in!
Now go to this page:
http://www.rense.com/general18/face.htm
If you believe your eyes then you cannot believe the US government and media infiltrated by the CIA as admitted by the director of the CIA in front of the Senator Church led committee.
WMD, Osama, JFK...how many more lies in US history? Pearl Harbour, Gulf of Tonkin,...
Reminds me of the Soviet Union...

rolleye.gif


Were you on the grassy knoll?
Get a grip - everything isn't a conspiracy.

CkG
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
Why do you refuse to believe your eyes?
The issue isn't my refusal to believe my eyes. The issue is rather about your refusal to believe my eyes.
 

Nietzscheusw

Senior member
Dec 28, 2003
308
0
0
You are in denial.
But your denial cannot erase the reality of these pictures.
They are two different men.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
You are in denial.
But your denial cannot erase the reality of these pictures.
They are two different men.
When qualified analysis, aside from that of a dubious nutcase contained in your beloved "rense.com", opines on the differences between both pictures (nevermind lighting conditions, film quality, angle of exposure, etc.), I might entertain further investigation.

Until then, however, please enjoy your self-induced exercise at straw grasping.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
You are in denial.
But your denial cannot erase the reality of these pictures.
They are two different men.

So, if what you say is true and it really is two different people, what should be done? Are you just bleating "CONSPIRACY" for fun? because you can't help your disorder? or do you actually have a plan/point to all this? Right now I think most of us are leaning towards the second one;)
Basically - if true - what next?

CkG
 

Nietzscheusw

Senior member
Dec 28, 2003
308
0
0
First I don't love rense.com. There is a lot of crap on that site.
But these pictures...the first one comes from the video and CNN.
The second one is the real Bin Laden...you may find many similar pictures of him on google.
On 9-11 the government and the mass-media shouted "Bin Laden". The government then said it had all the proofs but could not show them because they were secret. Then came the "miracle video".
Last year the government and the media shouted "WMD".
I see a pattern.
Now what you ask. Well, you can try to investigate by yourself. US history and how it is full of official truths that turned out to be official lies (the same happens in every country).
You can also watch some videos about 9-11:
ed2k://|file|The.Truth.And.Lies.Of.9-11.VHS.XviD.avi|738377728|25CD222950134EE6CBC9C97AE27070B4|/
ed2k://|file|9-11.conspiracy.-.Daniel.Hopsicker.-.Mohamed.Atta.and.the.Venice.Flying.Circus.(german.subtitles).mpeg|776886812|3A9AB8C7594AAB6E8FC5907B586F327E|/
ed2k://|file|9-11.Painful.Deceptions.-.Analysis.of.the.Pentagon.Fireball.and.of.the.World.Trade.Center.controlled.demolition.(2.Towers.-.WTC.1.&.2.-.and.Building.7].wmv|26959404|5FAF5C5041EEDDA8A4EC0FC46070E6A0|/
ed2k://|file|Aftermath.-.Unanswered.Questions.From.9-11.-.Part.1.mov|22066033|B48BC46DD12AF1F50719E465A4986DF3|/
ed2k://|file|Aftermath.-.Unanswered.Questions.From.9-11.-.Part.2.mov|13607302|FBBEC9DCB52FFD0AD6F6325BC53B3418|/
ed2k://|file|Aftermath.-.Unanswered.Questions.From.9-11.-.Part.3.mov|7127398|68C8C9131B1C98B013C15C20896831B0|/
ed2k://|file|Aftermath.-.Unanswered.Questions.From.9-11.-.Part.4.mov|6670240|E6CD4657C9F807FE010FD49A97F7FCE4|/
ed2k://|file|Aftermath.-.Unanswered.Questions.from.9-11.INTRO_divx.avi|36906294|D1DF01043483D4D5CD3F41B2F8113172|/
ed2k://|file|Michel.Chossudovsky.-.The.Truth.Behind.911.mov|43860091|5E60C290C46C9C6FFF0E2B6D6ED7114F|/

Maybe these independant investigators are more honest than Bush and Powell.
You should try and find out.
Unless you want to keep on believing the deceptive mass-media.
Basically it is simple matter of curiosity.