if i replace 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets in old house (but not wiring)...

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
29,391
2,737
126
replace all 2 prongs with 3prong gfci's.

theres still no ground, but the person is effectively protected from shock/electricution.

this sounds too simple.
whats the down side?

what happens with modern appliances (ie: toaster) that has a 3prong plug but theres no ground in the gfci?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,555
30,775
146
nothing happens. it just isn't grounded.

I did this in a previous place where the outlets were essentially built on top of a slab (room was a converted garage), so there was no real crawlspace to access the wiring and run a ground (also no place outside to make a ground).

I plugged my home theater junk into such outlets without any problem for ~1 year. :\
 

ScottSwing

Banned
Jun 13, 2010
447
0
0
Anything large, metal, and connected to electronics is grounded, so you might ground it by accident.
 

Tsaico

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2000
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Also, many of the boxes you mount to, even the older ones, are metal, so you shoud be able to ground against the box itself. One thing you can do is take a testing light/plug and put one end into the hot side (the shorter one), then the other side to the screw that holds the plug in place. If it lights, then you know you are grounded. You can also buy a tester that just plugs into the socket for $5 at home depot. If it doesn't light, then I would suggest you contact a licensed electrician to correct the issue, or just use the GFCI plugs as you mentioned. They will cut power at the plug if there is a short, so while not the 100%, it will still keep a shock from happening should you short something.
 

bobdole369

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2004
4,504
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but the person is effectively protected from shock/electricution.

It is this part that is false.

The only thing you gain is that the new outlets have a wider plug, so its not possible to plug in a new polarized plug in backwards, subjecting the metal case of the device plugged in to the hot side.
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
9,118
767
126
Sounds like you should be ok, but make sure to mark the outlets as not grounded.

Replacing Receptacles to Meet the NEC

The NEC requires receptacles installed on 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits to be of the grounding-type and it requires the grounding contacts of those receptacles to be effectively grounded to the branch circuit equipment grounding conductor [210-7]. However, the Code allows the installation of any of the following installations when replacing a 2-wire nongrounding-type receptacle where no ground exists in the outlet box [210-7(d)(3)], Figure 9/10:

(a) Replace the 2-wire receptacle with another 2-wire receptacle.

(b) Replace the 2-wire receptacle with a GFCI-type receptacle and marked the receptacle with the words “No Equipment Ground.”


(c) Replace the 2-wire receptacle with a grounding-type receptacle where protected by a GFCI protection device (circuit breaker or receptacle). Since the grounding terminals for the receptacles are not grounded, the receptacles must be marked with the words “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.”

A grounding-type receptacle that is GFCI protected without an equipment grounding conductor is a safer installation than a grounding-type receptacle with an equipment grounding conductor (if GFCI protection is not provided). This is because the GFCI protection device will clear a ground-fault when the fault-current is 5 milliamperes (+ or – 1 milliampere), which is less than the current level necessary to cause serious electric shock or electrocution, Figure 10/11.

A grounding-type receptacle without a ground is a safe installation as long as the GFCI protection circuitry within the device has not failed from shorts and voltage transients. To insure proper GFCI protection, test the GFCI monthly in accordance with the manufactures instructions and if the GFCI test does not operate properly, replace the GFCI protection device.

Author’s Comment: The equipment grounding conductor serves no purpose in the operation of a GFCI protection device, and therefore it has no effect on the function of the GFCI test-button.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/All-HTML/HTML/GFCI-Receptacles-Without-Ground~19991230.php
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
Agree. Either do the update properly or do not do it at all.
Even a GFCI outlet needs a ground to work properly.
And in an old home, if some homeowner / diyer does not
know what they are doing, it is easy to mix up the hot wire
and the neutral wire. (presuming the original electrician did it correct)

Rule of thumb:
Black wire on the Receptacle Brass color Screw (narrow slot)
White wire on the Silver color Screw (wide slot)
Ground wire (green in color or bare if Romex) to the Green screw of outlet / switch

Remember:
An incorrectly wired outlet is just as bad, if not worse, than not upgrading at all. When in doubt, call in a licensed electrician.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
29,391
2,737
126
it's against code and illegal

why is it against code?

it seems so simple and cost effective a fix for older houses?

in fact, why even have a ground wire in outlets in a house?
just use gfci to protect you, and protect you better than a 3 prong outlet with ground. :eek:

you say it's more expensive. but you also dont have to pull a ground wire, plus the labor to make a pigtail, and screw the ground onto both the box, and receptacle?

hm.. isnt it current code that every new house have every outlet be gfci? (arc fault in bedroom)
thus you have gfci anyway. elminate the green wire to receptacles???
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,022
16,413
136
nothing happens. it just isn't grounded.

I did this in a previous place where the outlets were essentially built on top of a slab (room was a converted garage), so there was no real crawlspace to access the wiring and run a ground (also no place outside to make a ground).

I plugged my home theater junk into such outlets without any problem for ~1 year. :\

Over three years here, with a 65" TV, PS3, DVR, and receiver plugged into it.

I should note that I only did this with one outlet, I'm not sure what happens if you do multiple outlets the same way on the same line.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
why? whats the point of marking the outlets as not grounded?

gfci protects you so whats the warning that its not grounded intended for?

GFCI protects you, but it can also fail (electro-mechanically), a ground is 'just there', even if it isn't 'intelligent'.

It's kind of like the difference between a sump pump, and a house that doesn't leak.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
Agree. Either do the update properly or do not do it at all.
Even a GFCI outlet needs a ground to work properly.
And in an old home, if some homeowner / diyer does not
know what they are doing, it is easy to mix up the hot wire
and the neutral wire. (presuming the original electrician did it correct)

Rule of thumb:
Black wire on the Receptacle Brass color Screw (narrow slot)
White wire on the Silver color Screw (wide slot)
Ground wire (green in color or bare if Romex) to the Green screw of outlet / switch

Remember:
An incorrectly wired outlet is just as bad, if not worse, than not upgrading at all. When in doubt, call in a licensed electrician.
If you had said "works best" I would have agreed, but a gfci will work without a ground just fine.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
why is it against code?

it seems so simple and cost effective a fix for older houses?

in fact, why even have a ground wire in outlets in a house?
just use gfci to protect you, and protect you better than a 3 prong outlet with ground. :eek:

you say it's more expensive. but you also dont have to pull a ground wire, plus the labor to make a pigtail, and screw the ground onto both the box, and receptacle?

hm.. isnt it current code that every new house have every outlet be gfci? (arc fault in bedroom)
thus you have gfci anyway. elminate the green wire to receptacles???
It's not really a "fix."
Having an outlet with the ground jack present is assumed to be properly grounded. If it's not grounded correctly, it's basically advertising a safety feature that's not there. I doubt you'd be allowed to put an "airbag" label on the steering wheel of your car if there wasn't an airbag in there somewhere

On a per-outlet basis, assuming new construction, you're going to have to run wires anyway, and a regular outlet is something like $1, vs $20+ for a decent GFCI outlet. And even so, the GFCI outlet still isn't grounded, though it does offer some protection. (You do still need to label it clearly as being ungrounded.)


As I understand it, you also need a ground wire for things like surge protectors to work properly.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
it's against code and illegal

Actually, no.

GFCI protecting 3 prong outlets that are lacking a real ground is the way to do it, if you cannot reasonably ground them properly.

What would be wrong is to put in 3 prongs, with no ground, and no GFCI. The GFCI gives the shock protection as it would trip before you get shocked.

Obviously, the best is to ground them properly, as for some equipment not having a ground can be a problem.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Neutral is grounded.
Though it is not a substitute for a proper, dedicated ground line.

A ground line should not be energized under normal circumstances.
The neutral line exists to serve as a return path from the hot wire, or something like that.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
Though it is not a substitute for a proper, dedicated ground line.

A ground line should not be energized under normal circumstances.
The neutral line exists to serve as a return path from the hot wire, or something like that.

Correct. And if you connect the ground to the neutral at the outlet, then it's possible that a person could provide a better, or at least parallel path to ground.
 

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
3
0
Correct. And if you connect the ground to the neutral at the outlet, then it's possible that a person could provide a better, or at least parallel path to ground.

Right. Don't ever do this, its against good judgment and the NEC.
 

Wyndru

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2009
7,318
4
76
Also, many of the boxes you mount to, even the older ones, are metal, so you shoud be able to ground against the box itself. One thing you can do is take a testing light/plug and put one end into the hot side (the shorter one), then the other side to the screw that holds the plug in place. If it lights, then you know you are grounded. You can also buy a tester that just plugs into the socket for $5 at home depot. If it doesn't light, then I would suggest you contact a licensed electrician to correct the issue, or just use the GFCI plugs as you mentioned. They will cut power at the plug if there is a short, so while not the 100%, it will still keep a shock from happening should you short something.

Yup, this is how I did my whole house, and I tested them and they are all grounded. I forgot exactly how I did it, but I remember connecting pieces of bare copper wire from the outlet ground to the box.
 
Nov 5, 2001
18,366
3
0
Also, many of the boxes you mount to, even the older ones, are metal, so you shoud be able to ground against the box itself. One thing you can do is take a testing light/plug and put one end into the hot side (the shorter one), then the other side to the screw that holds the plug in place. If it lights, then you know you are grounded. You can also buy a tester that just plugs into the socket for $5 at home depot. If it doesn't light, then I would suggest you contact a licensed electrician to correct the issue, or just use the GFCI plugs as you mentioned. They will cut power at the plug if there is a short, so while not the 100%, it will still keep a shock from happening should you short something.

while the boxes may be metal, that does you no good unless there is a ground wire pulled box to box or it's on conduit. Braided insulation wiring in old homes and 2 wire romex in newer homes provide no continuous ground.
 

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
Actually, no.

GFCI protecting 3 prong outlets that are lacking a real ground is the way to do it, if you cannot reasonably ground them properly.

What would be wrong is to put in 3 prongs, with no ground, and no GFCI. The GFCI gives the shock protection as it would trip before you get shocked.

Obviously, the best is to ground them properly, as for some equipment not having a ground can be a problem.
it's still against code to have a three prong outlet without the proper thrid conductor in place. Call any inspector in your area or the fire department (if they know) and they'll tell you it's a big no-no.
Though it is not a substitute for a proper, dedicated ground line.

A ground line should not be energized under normal circumstances.
The neutral line exists to serve as a return path from the hot wire, or something like that.

exactly ^
 

NL5

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2003
3,286
12
81
So much misinformation it ain't even funny.

The NEC (although not the current code cycle) was quoted - use that as your best guide, otherwise hire a competent electrician.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,434
343
126
Here's the functional difference. In a proper 3-prong grounded outlet, the Ground line is connected by a bare copper wire in the cable to a Ground point in the Breaker Panel. This line has NO other purpose and should NEVER have any current running through it except in abnormal emergency conditions. The Breaker Panel Ground is connected by heavy cable to a true Earth Ground in the form of an existing buried water pipe in the ground or, preferably (required in some areas) a dedicated Ground rod buried in the ground. It is truly at zero volts potential compared to the earth at all times.

In a device plugged into a Grounded outlet with proper wiring, the Ground lead in the device's cord is connected to the exterior chassis of the device, and likely also to some portion of the internal chassis. The effect is that any conductive portion of the device that is normally accessible is always Grounded. The Hot and Neutral lines of the power supply are connected only to active circuit elements in the device. In the event of a malfunction that allows a supply voltage to contact the exposed surface, two things happen simultaneously. One is that the connection provides a VERY low-resistance current path from the Hot lead to Ground, allowing a very heavy current to flow through that circuit. The current normally is so large that the breaker supplying the Hot lead is overloaded and trips, stopping all current flow and removing the voltage. The second effect is that, because the Ground lead has such low resistance, the voltage present on the device's exterior surface that you might be touching, compared to true Ground, is so small that you could not be injured by en electrical shock during the brief period it takes for the breaker to trip. In this way a malfunction cannot present a danger of electrocution even if you are holding the device when it happens.

There is a less-significant factor from a safety standpoint, but significant for proper function of certain types of devices. If the exterior of the device's case is Grounded, it becomes a very effective barrier to penetration of electromagnetic noise signals from outside, and also a limiter on how much noise from inside the case will be broadcast out to the surroundings.

A GFCI works in a very different manner, and it works with NO Ground if none is available. Now, any GFCI WILL have a third Ground terminal and hole, and it really ought to be used with a Grounded cable supply so you have the Ground function, too. But even without that, the GFCI function will work. What a GFCI unit does is constantly compare the currents flowing through the Hot and Neutral lines to the device plugged into it. In any proper circuit operation they should be exactly the same - what goes out must come in. BUT if there is an imbalance exceeding some specified limit (I think it may be 5 mA, not sure), it is assumed that current is leaking someplace it should not go - quite possibly into YOU! - and the GFCI trips the circuit off. That is, it disconnects at least the Hot lead so the device plugged in has NO voltage supply from there. A GFCI mounted in an outlet box does not overload the breaker in the panel and trip it. It does NOT provide any true Ground connection to the outer surface / chassis of the device plugged into it. It cannot provide any electrical noise protection. But it can provide protection against most causes of electrical shock to users of the device.

So they operate on different principles. A Grounded outlet guarantees a zero-voltage exposed surface via a safe current conduction path that is sufficient to trip the supply breaker. A GFGI checks for current balance and switches itself off if it thinks there is a leak. Both can prevent accidental electrocution in most cases of equipment malfunction. But since a GFCI mounted in a box with no Ground lead in its supply cable cannot actually provide a Ground, that fixture MUST be labeled as having no Ground so that users are not misguided by making faulty assumptions.

By the way, about assuming a metal box in the wall is Grounded - definitely NOT. It is true that some wiring systems use conduit or BX cable (with the spiral metal casing) that contains only the Hot and Neutral wires, and relies on the metal cable case to be the Ground lead. In those systems the outlet box may well be adequately Grounded, depending on how well the installation was done. But it is much more common in houses with 2-slot outlets to find that the supply cabling does NOT have any Grounding conductor - it is strictly two current carriers and non-conducting insulation. Testing is required to verify whether any Ground is available at an outlet box. Even the test recommended above - place a test lamp from Hot to metal box and see if it lights - is not good enough. In that test you will get a light even if the Ground connection quality is too poor to provide adequate safety. A much more sensitive test is really necessary, and that usually will need a qualified electrician to do.