If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why does he allow suffering?

[Wahsapa]

Originally posted by: biostud666

Originally posted by: Wahsapa

Originally posted by: mobobuff

Originally posted by: biostud666

Originally posted by: mobobuff

Originally posted by: biostud666
Because God doesn't interfere with his creation. (If you believe in such things)

So why do people pray?

Because they believe

Believe what?

that there is a god... why else would they be praying?

and if he answers prays(see miracle) then again, why does he allow suffering

with no suffering no-one would pray

im sure they would pray for things like a new house, a new car, to be better off, even though they arnt suffering.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Wahsapa

Originally posted by: biostud666

Originally posted by: Wahsapa

Originally posted by: mobobuff

Originally posted by: biostud666

Originally posted by: mobobuff

Originally posted by: biostud666
Because God doesn't interfere with his creation. (If you believe in such things)

So why do people pray?

Because they believe

Believe what?

that there is a god... why else would they be praying?

and if he answers prays(see miracle) then again, why does he allow suffering

with no suffering no-one would pray

im sure they would pray for things like a new house, a new car, to be better off, even though they arnt suffering.

They would be "suffering" because they don't have what they think will make them happy.

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: EGGO
Didn't want to go into a religious debate in another forum, but might as well let you guys see what we do over at infidels.org =0)

God himself created man and woman and placed them in a garden, in "his own image", but got righteously angry at them when they ate, against his wish, and after being tempted by a talking serpent that god himself had somehow allowed to slither about in the garden, a tasty, beautiful fruit, though he himself had placed it there but neglected to instill in his creations the knowledge of good and evil so that they would know it was wrong to eat it. Being omniscient, of course, he knew all this before he started, but was apparently unable to do anything about it because he had planned it this way from the beginning, and apparently god cannot change anything he already knows, in spite of the fact that he's omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.

Later, God himself impregnated a virgin so that he himself could be born a human, a ManGod. This was necessary, apparently, because only his own ManGod blood could appease himself and deliver humans, who he created, and who he knew would muck things up by eating the fruit, from his own righteous anger.

Of course, he waited several thousand years to implement this divine plan, in the meantime taking the righteous action of drowning every creature on the planet except a few he could stuff on a boat. Not to mention handing down a Law that served to further condemn every one of us, and in which Law he himself had them frequently sacrifice animals to appease himself, though he knew the blood of animals didn't really appease himself.

Much later, god, in a garden, prayed to himself to "take this cup" away from himself, though he himself knew that he himself had planned the coming events from the beginning and knew that not even he himself could save himself, even though he was god and omnipotent, omniscient, etc. Accepting this, he said, in effect, "Not my will, but my will."

God then sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself. (or had himself sacrificed; not much of a distinction between the two, really) Before dying, he himself asked he himself why he had forsaken himself.

He himself, being dead, then raised himself from the dead less than 40 hours later, though he himself had said he'd be dead for three days and three nights, which he could do because he was still alive, and later he himself pulled himself up into heaven where he himself apparently already was, and where he himself is described as now sitting at the right hand of himself.

He himself then sent himself (or a ghost of himself, if you please) back to earth to be a comfort to us, though he himself is still sitting at the right hand of himself.

And, glory hallelujah, he himself promised that he himself will return someday, though he himself is already here, and will still be there, to snatch up those who believe the god blood sacrifice story he himself told us, and kill the rest of us who don't believe the god blood sacrifice story, no matter how nice we were otherwise. But, since killing us isn't enough to appease his righteousness, he himself will then judge us, though according to ManGod he himself will also not judge us, and being a god of love will cast most of us into hell for an eternity of suffering. He has to, of course, because he is a righteous, just god, and can't figure out a way to save anyone who hasn't been redeemed by god-blood, even though he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, and loves us all.

I've been over to infidels.org and they have some of the worst logic/reasoning, misinformation and lack of knowledge to date. I've debated religion with people and have had some very good/intellectual debates. The MAJOR problem with alot of posts/info at infidels.org seems to be assumption. They take theological issues/debates/arguments and do very little research on the things they attack. They assume something means one thing and refuse to acknowledge or even research the original meanings/point of views,etc.

If you're going to believe in a Faith such as Christianity - you should have SOME knowledge of the basics and continue to learn and debate. (needs to happen much more than it is) On the FLIP SIDE if you're going to ATTACK religion the most basic thing you need to do is know what you are talking about (which rarely seems to happen - example infidels.org)

 

[Xionide]

The OP should be liquidated.

 

[mobobuff]

Hmm. I guess religion is vague when it wants to be.

Dostoevsky's The Grand Inquisitor. Good read.

 

[Kadarin]

Who we are is defined by our suffering; to take away the suffering of life would destroy who we are as humans.

I did not read the thread, but I noticed the above from LordMagnusKain's original post.

That sentence is circular, and means NOTHING.

 

[VirginiaDonkey]

I believe.......
I believe it's time for a beer 🙂

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: VirginiaDonkey
I believe.......
I believe it's time for a beer 🙂

:beer:😀

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: mobobuff
Been reading some Dan Brown lately?

Never heard of him.

Who we are is defined by our suffering; to take away the suffering of life would destroy who we are as humans.

I did not read the thread, but I noticed the above from LordMagnusKain's original post.

That sentence is circular, and means NOTHING.

if your going to attack someone?s logic your going to have to point out ware it becomes self-defining or at very least attack the given.. Or do you think I?m trying to argue for the existence of God with it?I was simply arguing for the possibility of a benevolent God.

Originally posted by: mobobuff

Originally posted by: biostud666
Because God doesn't interfere with his creation. (If you believe in such things)

So why do people pray?

I?ve heard it said: prayer doesn?t change God to your will, but helps change human will to that of God?s.

But I believe it?s because, like any other human action, it has some sort of consequence, and following after the heart of what?s good is almost always going to bring about the best consequence.

do you honestly not even see how you trampled beliefs which don't coincide with your own?

how does my observation that many don?t believe in God because they feel pain, thus blame their creator, if there is one, and thus conclude there isn?t one trample on someone?s fiath?

Yet you can in good conscience tell me that I believe the way I do for a single, petty reason

no, I wasn?t saying anything is the only reason. I didn?t try to mock your situation. I?m sorry to see that you thought I was.

I was just trying to ask why you must misconstrue what others think of God in order to mock the idea. But you amswered and can see the basic positive influence of the human need for faith in the Creator, so why mock such a powerfully good influence for individuals in an intellectually dishonest manner? Because you don?t like how some church?s have done things? Well nether do I, that?s why I?m a protestant. It doesn't mean I?m going to be dishonest and mock the idea of the pope by saying " they think a man knows everything God thinks, and do what this god/man says because he's got a funny hat, and if they don't they get sent to be spanked in purgatory!", i don't belive it and

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: VirginiaDonkey
I believe.......
I believe it's time for a beer 🙂

:beer:😀

:wine:

 

[Davegod75]

Question- Why does God allow bad things to happen to people?

Answer- This is a complex question that has given people problems for many of years. You have only to look at the Bible and turn to the book of Job to see that this is true. We tend to think that if God is all good and He is all powerful and He loves man, it just follows that He would not let anything bad happen to us. This, however, does not take into account the whole story. It completely skips the part about God originally providing a perfect world where there was no suffering. He created man so that he was capable of love, but not forced to love, not even the one who created him. It is similar to a father who has a child that he loves dearly and wants to have that child's love in return but only the child can give that love. In other words God gave us the freedom to love Him (or not), otherwise, of what value would our love be? .

Now, if we have the freedom to do what we want we can use it to do good things or bad things, right? You may say, "Well He could have made us so we could be a little bad but not too bad so that we could not hurt each other" But what kind of freedom would that be? You are either free or you are not. You can't be a little bit free just like you can't be a little bit pregnant. That means we can be rude. We can be mean. We can be deceitful. We can be vicious and we can be outright maniacal, it is just a matter of degree. If this is allowed then it just stands to reason that on the other side of the coin there will be those that are mistreated, abused, tortured, and even brutally murdered by those that choose to use their freedom in that way.

Here again we are not considering the whole story. Just because you have the freedom to do something it doesn't mean that you have to do it. It is like the American flag, you CAN burn it if you want, but people don't do it because they choose not to out of love and respect for the country for which it stands. Also there are consequences of doing things that keep people from doing them. You might not be able to live with your conscience. You might be ostracized by your community.. You might even be imprisoned or killed, but you will not be prevented by God because he has given you a freedom and the ability to choose what is right. You may not always do it but that is not His fault.

You may say "Well I can understand about human caused suffering but what about natural disasters over which man has no control. Where can we find the answer to a question as big as that? If you read the book of Job you will find that God gives Job no explanation for the terrible things that have happened to him and God himself says he likes Job so what can we conclude? Well first, we have to look at what God does tell Job after he pleads for an answer. God takes Job through a series of questions about creating this or that and asks Job what he would do. It becomes painfully clear to Job that he is talking to the God that created everything and he is so humbled that he falls down and begs God's forgiveness for questioning Him.

The point may be that we simply are not grand enough to understand God's plan. Sometimes when I am feeling excessively self assured, I like to take a minute and try to imagine the scale of God. Let's see, I will live for maybe 80 years if I am lucky. All of mankind has been on the earth for maybe 10,000 years. The universe is some 12 billion years old and God was there long long before it happened not only that, he dreamed it up and controls its demise. Now what is it that I have done in my life that makes me think I am worthy of being noticed by God?

As Mother Theresa once said "The most miserable of lives will seem of no more consequence that one night in a cheap hotel when compared with the wonders of eternity in heaven"

Maybe each of us are given a life and in that life there are things to deal with which may be very difficult. But suppose after that life we come into a place that fulfills our every need that makes us feel totally useful and completely loved. How long do you think that we will dwell on the life we led before we came? Maybe 10 years, 1000 years, 1 million years, 10 billion years? That's o.k. whatever it takes we have the time. The point is that at some point even the worst life will pale in comparison to the wonder of the place we enjoy and it may be so good that it only takes a fraction of a second.

The scale of God is so great that we cannot understand His plan. He could not explain it to us because we are so tiny and it is so grand, but we can look around and realize that the one who made all the wonders that we can see deserves our trust in what we can't see.

 

[Nikamichi]

Originally posted by: ggavinmoss
Because you touch yourself.

-geoff

😀

 

[Nocturnal]

Originally posted by: Davegod75
Question- Why does God allow bad things to happen to people?

Answer- This is a complex question that has given people problems for many of years. You have only to look at the Bible and turn to the book of Job to see that this is true. We tend to think that if God is all good and He is all powerful and He loves man, it just follows that He would not let anything bad happen to us. This, however, does not take into account the whole story. It completely skips the part about God originally providing a perfect world where there was no suffering. He created man so that he was capable of love, but not forced to love, not even the one who created him. It is similar to a father who has a child that he loves dearly and wants to have that child's love in return but only the child can give that love. In other words God gave us the freedom to love Him (or not), otherwise, of what value would our love be? .

Now, if we have the freedom to do what we want we can use it to do good things or bad things, right? You may say, "Well He could have made us so we could be a little bad but not too bad so that we could not hurt each other" But what kind of freedom would that be? You are either free or you are not. You can't be a little bit free just like you can't be a little bit pregnant. That means we can be rude. We can be mean. We can be deceitful. We can be vicious and we can be outright maniacal, it is just a matter of degree. If this is allowed then it just stands to reason that on the other side of the coin there will be those that are mistreated, abused, tortured, and even brutally murdered by those that choose to use their freedom in that way.

Here again we are not considering the whole story. Just because you have the freedom to do something it doesn't mean that you have to do it. It is like the American flag, you CAN burn it if you want, but people don't do it because they choose not to out of love and respect for the country for which it stands. Also there are consequences of doing things that keep people from doing them. You might not be able to live with your conscience. You might be ostracized by your community.. You might even be imprisoned or killed, but you will not be prevented by God because he has given you a freedom and the ability to choose what is right. You may not always do it but that is not His fault.

You may say "Well I can understand about human caused suffering but what about natural disasters over which man has no control. Where can we find the answer to a question as big as that? If you read the book of Job you will find that God gives Job no explanation for the terrible things that have happened to him and God himself says he likes Job so what can we conclude? Well first, we have to look at what God does tell Job after he pleads for an answer. God takes Job through a series of questions about creating this or that and asks Job what he would do. It becomes painfully clear to Job that he is talking to the God that created everything and he is so humbled that he falls down and begs God's forgiveness for questioning Him.

The point may be that we simply are not grand enough to understand God's plan. Sometimes when I am feeling excessively self assured, I like to take a minute and try to imagine the scale of God. Let's see, I will live for maybe 80 years if I am lucky. All of mankind has been on the earth for maybe 10,000 years. The universe is some 12 billion years old and God was there long long before it happened not only that, he dreamed it up and controls its demise. Now what is it that I have done in my life that makes me think I am worthy of being noticed by God?

As Mother Theresa once said "The most miserable of lives will seem of no more consequence that one night in a cheap hotel when compared with the wonders of eternity in heaven"

Maybe each of us are given a life and in that life there are things to deal with which may be very difficult. But suppose after that life we come into a place that fulfills our every need that makes us feel totally useful and completely loved. How long do you think that we will dwell on the life we led before we came? Maybe 10 years, 1000 years, 1 million years, 10 billion years? That's o.k. whatever it takes we have the time. The point is that at some point even the worst life will pale in comparison to the wonder of the place we enjoy and it may be so good that it only takes a fraction of a second.

The scale of God is so great that we cannot understand His plan. He could not explain it to us because we are so tiny and it is so grand, but we can look around and realize that the one who made all the wonders that we can see deserves our trust in what we can't see.

Amen. And with that said I'm going to thoroughly read the entire book of Job tonight when I return home from work. Amen again. God bless you brother.