If God exists, does he baffle himself?

[Dessicant]

Love and you won't have any doubt and thus no questions.

This is incorrect. Love must be attached to value. Love must not, and really cannot, be granted indiscriminately.

In other words, love is NOT the answer, but simply a decision on what to value highly.

 

[inachu]

GOD has infinite complete knowledge and wisdom of any and all things.
He sees all and knows all.

Because we are his dreams.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

GOD has infinite complete knowledge and wisdom of any and all things.
He sees all and knows all.

Because we are his dreams.

Gasoline grows down purple monkey dishwasher.

 

[inachu]

Discussion thread?

What's really baffling is that God has a penis. I suspect that if such a being existed it would be baffled by that too.

GOD has everything and anything ever thought of. GOD can be anything at any time at any moment

 

[IronWing]

GOD has everything and anything ever thought of. GOD can be anything at any time at any moment

My sock puppet can eat your sock puppet for lunch. Please define "everything", "anything", "ever", "any time", and "any". Thanks.

 

[sm625]

You seem to have trouble comprehending the meaning of the phrase "infinite knowledge".

 

[IronWing]

You seem to have trouble comprehending the meaning of the phrase "infinite knowledge".

That one too.

 

[Vdubchaos]

"If God exists, he has to be a man. Only man can fuck thing up like this"

George Carlin

 

[moonbogg]

"If God exists, he has to be a man. Only man can fuck thing up like this"

George Carlin

There is but three. They are he, they are she, and then there is me. Perhaps the me includes all three. I'm not saying I am a tranny. I'm saying god is literally everything or nothing.

 

[SMOGZINN]

There is but three. They are he, they are she, and then there is me. Perhaps the me includes all three. I'm not saying I am a tranny. I'm saying god is literally everything or nothing.

So you are saying god is a hermaphrodite?

 

[moonbogg]

So you are saying god is a hermaphrodite?

In effect, yes, I suppose I would have to be saying that (if god exists).
​

 

[Ventanni]

None of this makes sense to me. It doesn't matter how amazing God is or isn't. The fact of the matter is, God is impossible just like anything else should be impossible. Existence makes no sense at all. It makes no sense because there can be no beginning. It has to have eternal properties to make sense, and that leads to acceptance of eternity.
God would have no answer with regard to his own existence. He would be no different from me contemplating my existence, or the existence of anything else. He would be forced into a position of acceptance without explanation. That's what the most fundamental foundation of reality must come to. Acceptance takes over where explanation necessarily must stop.

Unfortunately you're trying to fit God into a human definition of reality and rules, and you can't. Now, I'm not going to be one of those people that just says, "God is so complex you can't even understand it," because your first instinctive reaction is going to be, "Try me!" But you start to get a better picture of God when you realize that time, yes, time is a created thing, because for humans there has to be a beginning and an end. For all things in this universe, there has to be a beginning and an end. But when you exist outside the "establishment of time", then it starts to make a bit more sense.

And you know what, I don't have to understand exactly what God is to see the fruit and effects of His work in my own life. I've seen marriages rekindled. I've seen people literally healed (yep, I've seen it with my own eyes on multiple occasions now). And I've seen people forgive what they once thought was unforgivable and begin to heal in their own hearts. People get so caught up on arguments like this, using them as a barrier to their own faith, that they forget to open up their eyes and see what God is doing already in their own lives. Once you let go and let God work, you'll see it, and once you do, there's no question who it is.

I say this respectfully, but if you want to keep on asking the same ole tired questions wondering who God is on a message board, then by all means, keep doing so. But if you actually want to find out who God is and stop wasting your time, then open up His Word. Watch Him work. Watch His effect on your life after you give yours to Him.

But if we continue trying to fit God into our own definition of reality, then we're going to be here for a long, long, long time and never move and inch.

 

[moonbogg]

Unfortunately you're trying to fit God into a human definition of reality and rules, and you can't. Now, I'm not going to be one of those people that just says, "God is so complex you can't even understand it," because your first instinctive reaction is going to be, "Try me!" But you start to get a better picture of God when you realize that time, yes, time is a created thing, because for humans there has to be a beginning and an end. For all things in this universe, there has to be a beginning and an end. But when you exist outside the "establishment of time", then it starts to make a bit more sense.

And you know what, I don't have to understand exactly what God is to see the fruit and effects of His work in my own life. I've seen marriages rekindled. I've seen people literally healed (yep, I've seen it with my own eyes on multiple occasions now). And I've seen people forgive what they once thought was unforgivable and begin to heal in their own hearts. People get so caught up on arguments like this, using them as a barrier to their own faith, that they forget to open up their eyes and see what God is doing already in their own lives. Once you let go and let God work, you'll see it, and once you do, there's no question who it is.

I say this respectfully, but if you want to keep on asking the same ole tired questions wondering who God is on a message board, then by all means, keep doing so. But if you actually want to find out who God is and stop wasting your time, then open up His Word. Watch Him work. Watch His effect on your life after you give yours to Him.

But if we continue trying to fit God into our own definition of reality, then we're going to be here for a long, long, long time and never move and inch.

Actually, trying to reconcile your God with reality is what causes the most stunted growth and pain in this world. I appreciate your input, but you sound like a pretender to me. You pretend to know God without doing any thinking. If something doesn't make sense, just ignore it and kick that confirmation bias into full gear and never look back.

 

[sandorski]

Unfortunately you're trying to fit God into a human definition of reality and rules, and you can't. Now, I'm not going to be one of those people that just says, "God is so complex you can't even understand it," because your first instinctive reaction is going to be, "Try me!" But you start to get a better picture of God when you realize that time, yes, time is a created thing, because for humans there has to be a beginning and an end. For all things in this universe, there has to be a beginning and an end. But when you exist outside the "establishment of time", then it starts to make a bit more sense.

And you know what, I don't have to understand exactly what God is to see the fruit and effects of His work in my own life. I've seen marriages rekindled. I've seen people literally healed (yep, I've seen it with my own eyes on multiple occasions now). And I've seen people forgive what they once thought was unforgivable and begin to heal in their own hearts. People get so caught up on arguments like this, using them as a barrier to their own faith, that they forget to open up their eyes and see what God is doing already in their own lives. Once you let go and let God work, you'll see it, and once you do, there's no question who it is.

I say this respectfully, but if you want to keep on asking the same ole tired questions wondering who God is on a message board, then by all means, keep doing so. But if you actually want to find out who God is and stop wasting your time, then open up His Word. Watch Him work. Watch His effect on your life after you give yours to Him.

But if we continue trying to fit God into our own definition of reality, then we're going to be here for a long, long, long time and never move and inch.

Everything about gods are Human. Until people start asking reasonable questions, then suddenly Mysticism is born.

 

[Caravaggio]

Firstly, congratulations on having such a strong faith. It seems to work well for you. Good.

Unfortunately you're trying to fit God into a human definition of reality and rules, and you can't.

But we are all humans and our realities and rules are obviously human. There is not another form of reality we can all simply plug into. There are many interpretations of reality but the ones discussed here are all the products of the human mind.

Now, I'm not going to be one of those people that just says, "God is so complex you can't even understand it,"

Actually that is more or less what you are saying. You ask us, in essence, just to "seek and we will find". Which was the recipe that worked for you. Many congratulations.[/QUOTE]

....because for humans there has to be a beginning and an end. For all things in this universe, there has to be a beginning and an end.

Yes, there has to be causation and stuff happens, and it happens in a particular order. Early stuff causes later stuff. Without time we are stuffed.

But when you exist outside the "establishment of time", then it starts to make a bit more sense.

I disagree. It would all get very weird without time.

And you know what, I don't have to understand exactly what God is to see the fruit and effects of His work in my own life. I've seen marriages rekindled. I've seen people literally healed (yep, I've seen it with my own eyes on multiple occasions now). And I've seen people forgive what they once thought was unforgivable and begin to heal in their own hearts. People get so caught up on arguments like this, using them as a barrier to their own faith, that they forget to open up their eyes and see what God is doing already in their own lives. Once you let go and let God work, you'll see it, and once you do, there's no question who it is.

I too have seen healing, love, forgiveness. They are great. Let's have more of that please. I have also seen illness, pain and death. But life contains those too, surely?
To lump nice things together and to call them 'God' while everything unpleasant is un-Godly, is a childlike (or at least Maimonides-like) dichotomy.

I say this respectfully

I was listening respectfully.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Unfortunately you're trying to fit God into a human definition of reality and rules, and you can't.

Says who? You? On what basis?

{snip}

...for humans there has to be a beginning and an end.

Speak for yourself. I'm under no such illusion.

For all things in this universe, there has to be a beginning and an end.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know much about thermodynamics?

But when you exist outside the "establishment of time", then it starts to make a bit more sense.

Please show us how the idea of "outside the establishment of time" makes any sense whatsoever. Not every concatenation of English words must represent a real phenomenon.

And you know what, I don't have to understand exactly what God is to see the fruit and effects of His work in my own life. I've seen marriages rekindled. I've seen people literally healed (yep, I've seen it with my own eyes on multiple occasions now). And I've seen people forgive what they once thought was unforgivable and begin to heal in their own hearts. People get so caught up on arguments like this, using them as a barrier to their own faith, that they forget to open up their eyes and see what God is doing already in their own lives. Once you let go and let God work, you'll see it, and once you do, there's no question who it is.

Seems painfully obvious that you had already decided that a God existed and interpreted your experiences through the lens of that presupposition. This does not make for reliable evidence of the truth of your presupposition.

I say this respectfully, but if you want to keep on asking the same ole tired questions wondering who God is on a message board, then by all means, keep doing so.

We keep asking them because they have yet to be met with good answers.

But if you actually want to find out who God is and stop wasting your time, then open up His Word. Watch Him work. Watch His effect on your life after you give yours to Him.

This is what passes for Christian "reasoning." it only reveals the fact that you have never even attempted to independently rationalize your belief in your god. You don't even seem to know how.

 

[Ventanni]

Actually, trying to reconcile your God with reality is what causes the most stunted growth and pain in this world. I appreciate your input, but you sound like a pretender to me. You pretend to know God without doing any thinking. If something doesn't make sense, just ignore it and kick that confirmation bias into full gear and never look back.

I'm no pretender. In fact, I once cursed His name and ridiculed others for believing in Him. Just because I'm a Christian and walk with God doesn't mean I bury my head in a sand. I choose this life and the lifestyle that it brings because of my experience. I'm telling you because I actually know Him (heaven forbid!) and that the process in which you're going about it isn't going to get you anywhere. For every post you make about who and what and why God doesn't fit into the realm of human reasoning, you could just be opening up the Bible and talking to Him yourself.

Also, you realize the very fact you created this post is because you're trying to reconcile God with reality. How much growth in your faith has that gotten you? How long have you been asking the same questions, Moonbogg?

 

[Ventanni]

Says who? You? On what basis?

{snip}


Speak for yourself. I'm under no such illusion.


Wanna know how I can tell you don't know much about thermodynamics?


Please show us how the idea of "outside the establishment of time" makes any sense whatsoever. Not every concatenation of English words must represent a real phenomenon.


Seems painfully obvious that you had already decided that a God existed and interpreted your experiences through the lens of that presupposition. This does not make for reliable evidence of the truth of your presupposition.


We keep asking them because they have yet to be met with good answers.


This is what passes for Christian "reasoning." it only reveals the fact that you have never even attempted to independently rationalize your belief in your god. You don't even seem to know how.

Cerpin, you are an extraordinary intelligent human being. Just because you and I disagree doesn't mean I dismiss that. You are, and I want you to know that. But I know you well enough and have read enough of your posts to understand that even if I showed you physical proof and evidence of God's existence, that you probably still wouldn't believe. The Pharisees watched Jesus heal the sick, raise the dead, give hope to the hopeless, and all that fun stuff, and they still didn't believe. Why? Because they chose not to.

You choose not to believe in God, and therefore, you will not know Him. And that's on you, man.

 

[moonbogg]

I'm no pretender. In fact, I once cursed His name and ridiculed others for believing in Him. Just because I'm a Christian and walk with God doesn't mean I bury my head in a sand. I choose this life and the lifestyle that it brings because of my experience. I'm telling you because I actually know Him (heaven forbid!) and that the process in which you're going about it isn't going to get you anywhere. For every post you make about who and what and why God doesn't fit into the realm of human reasoning, you could just be opening up the Bible and talking to Him yourself.

Also, you realize the very fact you created this post is because you're trying to reconcile God with reality. How much growth in your faith has that gotten you? How long have you been asking the same questions, Moonbogg?

I am unable to choose my beliefs.

 

[sandorski]

Cerpin, you are an extraordinary intelligent human being. Just because you and I disagree doesn't mean I dismiss that. You are, and I want you to know that. But I know you well enough and have read enough of your posts to understand that even if I showed you physical proof and evidence of God's existence, that you probably still wouldn't believe. The Pharisees watched Jesus heal the sick, raise the dead, give hope to the hopeless, and all that fun stuff, and they still didn't believe. Why? Because they chose not to.

You choose not to believe in God, and therefore, you will not know Him. And that's on you, man.

The old song and dance of I can't show you anything, so I'll just dismiss you because you would reject it even if I could.

The problem isn't that we would simply reject any Evidence, it's that you have none to show.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Cerpin, you are an extraordinary intelligent human being. Just because you and I disagree doesn't mean I dismiss that. You are, and I want you to know that.

I thank you for the compliment, sincerely. I feel I should add that a good many of my arguments are not strictly my original thoughts, but rather reflect a thorough repository of sound arguments that I have collected through years of examining various claims and evidence surrounding beliefs in gods, and vetting them through the course of online debates in the company of some extraordinarily knowledgeable peers.

But I know you well enough and have read enough of your posts to understand that even if I showed you physical proof and evidence of God's existence, that you probably still wouldn't believe.

Here is a key difference between you an I, and an opportunity for me to return a compliment of sorts.

I wouldn't bother arguing these topics of I didn't think the arguments I offer were persuasive. Implicit in my belief in their persuasiveness, however, is a fundamental belief that you and other readers-along are intelligent enough to comprehend my arguments and realize those various fallacies and errors in fact that I attempt to reveal in the claims I rebut.

So, maybe you will and maybe you won't convince me, but it seems to me if you really thought you had persuasive arguments and/or evidence, you wouldn't hesitate to submit them on the chance that they'd convince someone else and withstand scrutiny.

The Pharisees watched Jesus heal the sick, raise the dead, give hope to the hopeless, and all that fun stuff, and they still didn't believe. Why? Because they chose not to.

Correction: some ancient author(s) claimed that the Pharisees watched Jesus heal the sick, etc. Authors have claimed many fanciful and outlandish things in many ancient and contemporary writings. Your selected text does not enjoy a default assumption of veracity simply because it holds special meaning to you.

You choose not to believe in God, and therefore, you will not know Him. And that's on you, man.

I do not choose to believe or disbelieve in the existence of objective things. Such beliefs are the result of cognitive functions, not volitional ones.

 

[Moonbeam]

Caravaggio:
But we are all humans and our realities and rules are obviously human. There is not another form of reality we can all simply plug into. There are many interpretations of reality but the ones discussed here are all the products of the human mind.

M: They are all the products of human thought. There is one reality when one unplugs from these. It is love.

C: I disagree. It would all get very weird without time.

M: Imagine that love is the flow of the wave of time that stops when you ride it.

Time is when one is divided into the observer and the clock.



C: I too have seen healing, love, forgiveness. They are great. Let's have more of that please. I have also seen illness, pain and death. But life contains those too, surely?
To lump nice things together and to call them 'God' while everything unpleasant is un-Godly, is a childlike (or at least Maimonides-like) dichotomy.

M: Yes, if there were good and evil, but there is only love. When you love questinns and everything else disappear.

 

[Moonbeam]

I am unable to choose my beliefs.

Me either. I simply can't take the existence of God on faith. But you have asked a question. Do you know why? What do you feel? Why do you question or seek? I sought because love had no meaning and that left me shipwrecked in despair. It's all well and good to seek, but it's better, I think, to seek with need.

I think that God isn't a person or something out there, but the state of awareness, a sudden realization that requires energy and preparation to attain. It is like a spark that jumps when there is an emotional charge. It requires need. Seeking works because seeking can be a product of need, but seeking without need doesn't do much, I think.

 

[Retro Rob]

But I know you well enough and have read enough of your posts to understand that even if I showed you physical proof and evidence of God's existence, that you probably still wouldn't believe.

Everyone has their own standard of evidence. Some people are more easily to convince than others.

That being said, there is really no such thing as a "bad" argument for the existence of God because that really depends on the listener. There are arguments that I've found good and sound, that others have panned and visa-versa.

I think the degree of evidence someone is willing to accept, depends on how much or how less one buys into the existence of a god/God.

 

[Caravaggio]

=Moonbeam
M: Imagine that love is the flow of the wave of time that stops when you ride it.

Time is when one is divided into the observer and the clock.

Alas, my attempts at surfing never produced that moment. The wave would either break before I reached it or was so strong it bowled me over after a few seconds. My surfing consisted mostly of being pushed long after the wave had broken. But hey, that's fun too.

The poem below is part of a work by Andrew Motion, it is called:-

Lazarus

I slipped back over the border.
I fell down into the pure dark with no dreaming.
Then I came home again.

Wherever I go now-
to market in the village,
or brushing through the fields at harvest-
I like to imagine
I leave swirling trails of light.

and yet, in confidence
I am mostly worn through
by the terms of my existence.

They require me to raise my
voice
every single day
And declare that I am happy.

Motion is an atheist who is inspired by Jesus and attends church often. As I do.