IF God did create us and the Earth...

TuffGuy

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
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Why in the heck did he bother creating the rest of the Universe and all those other planets and galaxies? And if so, what makes us think that he would only create us? What makes us soooo special that he would create the whole universe just for us. Isn't that kind of a waste? Wouldn't our galaxy (at most) suffice? And if he did create us in his image, why are so many people so f-ed up?

(yes, it's late)
 

Calundronius

Senior member
May 19, 2002
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Well, aren't you assuming that if God created us, he created only us and no other life anywhere? Couldn't it be that there is life elsewhere? (Maybe God thinks long-term, and wants us to spread out some, too.)

Also, "created us in His imagine" is usally taken to mean that we have free will, we can make our own choices in life and whatnot. Of course, free will is a paradox.

And finally, God, by definition, would be infinite, and we, who are not, could never hope to understand His will, since the finite cannot contain the infinite. That may sound like the ultimate cop-out, but hey... ::shrug::

And yes, it is late.
 

TNTrulez

Banned
Aug 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Calundronius
Well, aren't you assuming that if God created us, he created only us and no other life anywhere? Couldn't it be that there is life elsewhere?

Also, "created us in His imagine" is usally taken to mean that we have free will, we can make our own choices in life and whatnot. Of course, free will is a paradox.

And finally, God, by definition, would be infinite, and we, who are not, could never hope to understand His will, since the finite cannot contain the infinite. That may sound like the ultimate cop-out, but hey... ::shrug::

And yes, it is late.

Yes, that's the oldest cop-out in the book.
 

wfbberzerker

Lifer
Apr 12, 2001
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well, im going by the assumption that people wrote the old testament several thousand years ago. back then, we had no idea about other galaxies, let alone other planets in our galaxy. so, basically, if there is only the earth, then the creation story works quite nicely.
 

TuffGuy

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
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Nice copout.

But if it's his will and he has some master plan that we're not meant to understand, why even bother praying? Consider how many prayers all the billions of people that have lived and will live have. Do you honestly think that he's gonna take time out from his divine plan to grant one little prayer?
 

Gulzakar

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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OOOH, I want to be a captain of an intergalactic cruiser :)

I'm gonna name it, "The PornStar"
 

oblizue

Senior member
Jan 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: TuffGuy
Nice copout.

But if it's his will and he has some master plan that we're not meant to understand, why even bother praying? Consider how many prayers all the billions of people that have lived and will live have. Do you honestly think that he's gonna take time out from his divine plan to grant one little prayer?

I always thought a prayer was like "god, you ain't doin good enough for me, please give me blah blah" Kinda saying that god's all mighty plan really isn't the right plan.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
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I once heard a sort of collective solipsistic theory that the sheer power of belief is enough to mold reality. In other words, if enough people truly believe something, it has a tendency to become real. Applying this idea to an example: There was a time when the majority of humanity believed that the Earth was flat, and was the center of the universe. Perhaps it truly was, but at some point, new ideas gained a kind of "critical mass", and things changed. The earth became a sphere, and the Sun another, much larger sphere, and the two revolved around a central point.

Yeah, there's all kinds of holes in that idea, but what if... God really did create heaven and earth, but as we grow and mature as a species, belief in this fades, and the concept of God is no longer needed, so God no longer exists...

Weird.
 

Calundronius

Senior member
May 19, 2002
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Yeah, it is a cop-out...there are probably things God would want us to understand about him, but that we'd never be able to understand him as a whole. As for how we figure those things out, who knows? Introspection? Prayer? Holy Scripture? Your guess is as good as mine.

As for prayer, maybe God wants us to turn to him in times of need? The fact that we don't always get everything we ask for implies his help is not guaranteed, at least, not in the way we'd want. We couldn't learn about sacrifice and bravery and hope and all that if we didn't have bad aspects in life. Maybe by experiencing love, hope, and kidness we are, in a way, learning about God. Which is, maybe, the best reason for why He would have made us: to do the one thing He can't, which is learn. God already knows all, so we get the one thing He can't do...not in the way we do, anway. The fact that not all of us turn out good could be a sign that we do have free will after all.

But I've always been bothered by "Why didn't God do this or that or whatever?" because I don't really think God owes us anything...if He did create us, then we're in debt to Him forever, simply because we owe him our existance.

I don't know any of this is the least bit true or right, these are just some ideas to think about.

But I'm tired and don't feel like arguing (and this will turn into arguement, I bet), so I guess that means I'm copping-out of my cop-out.

::yawn::

G'night everyone. :)
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
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well if god doesn't answer the prayers of those facing genocide like in the holocaust, i don't think he's answering any.
 

Omegachi

Diamond Member
Mar 27, 2001
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why would god create us anyways? is it because he is lonely? does he think that we are a part of his game or something? like simcity, simearth, or black and white? just watch us and punish and reward us whenever he sees fit?

so many questions, and i have no chance of getting an answer...

thats why i choose not to believe in him. I believe in myself, and my own perception of reality. don't believe anything about a higher being, because my perception of reality tells me that it doesn't exist.
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
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hehe sim earth:) i wonder when maxis will get around to that game:)

yea he's probably up there clicking on the natural disasters menu all the time... that sadistic f*ck!
 

luvya

Banned
Nov 19, 2001
3,161
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The nature is the God. That's what God really is. So we are trying to explain why the nature create us and the earth instead of something someone superficial...
If god is all powerful, all knowing and all perfect, then God lacks imperfection. So the conclusion..there is no God.
The ability to learn....mmmmmmmmm, I don't know about that. Since God is all knowing, he must know how to learn right? And just because he is all knowing doesn't mean he lacks the ability to learn just that he never have to learn..
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Calundronius
Yeah, it is a cop-out...there are probably things God would want us to understand about him, but that we'd never be able to understand him as a whole. As for how we figure those things out, who knows? Introspection? Prayer? Holy Scripture? Your guess is as good as mine.

As for prayer, maybe God wants us to turn to him in times of need? The fact that we don't always get everything we ask for implies his help is not guaranteed, at least, not in the way we'd want. We couldn't learn about sacrifice and bravery and hope and all that if we didn't have bad aspects in life. Maybe by experiencing love, hope, and kidness we are, in a way, learning about God. Which is, maybe, the best reason for why He would have made us: to do the one thing He can't, which is learn. God already knows all, so we get the one thing He can't do...not in the way we do, anway. The fact that not all of us turn out good could be a sign that we do have free will after all.

But I've always been bothered by "Why didn't God do this or that or whatever?" because I don't really think God owes us anything...if He did create us, then we're in debt to Him forever, simply because we owe him our existance.

I don't know any of this is the least bit true or right, these are just some ideas to think about.

But I'm tired and don't feel like arguing (and this will turn into arguement, I bet), so I guess that means I'm copping-out of my cop-out.

::yawn::

G'night everyone. :)

God is our dealer, he wants us to depend on him.

If he exists, knows what we feel/think, give a damn about it, and wants us to do stuff, he should also know how to get us to do it, and should also know that I will not take his existance for granted, nor take for granted that a 'holy' book which brought forth so much evil (inquisition, crusades, witchhunts, republicans) is a book given by him rather than written by the devil (or simply by men). If he exists and wants me to believe he knows what to do to get me to believe in him.

To say that he wants us to pray for the simple reason of wanting to know that we believe in him would indicate that he doesn't have a clue on what we think or feel otherwise, and therefor is about as powerful as any dictator or big software company, and cares about people as much as they do too if he wouldn't help a good person without prayers. If you are a bad person and pray it doesn't make you a good person, if you are a good person and don't pray you are still a good person.


Or, to explain it a bit shorter: NART
 

TuffGuy

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
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What does prayer accomplish? If everything in our lives is a part of his DIVINE plan, and he's gonna do whatever he wants to, what makes you think that he would answer even a few prayers and alter his DIVINE plan? We live an ant's life.

As for the learning statement, how is that different from us training dogs, monkeys, or parrots?
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: TuffGuy
What does prayer accomplish? If everything in our lives is a part of his DIVINE plan, and he's gonna do whatever he wants to, what makes you think that he would answer even a few prayers and alter his DIVINE plan? We live an ant's life.

As for the learning statement, how is that different from us training dogs, monkeys, or parrots?

Other animals have an instict for survival of the species, humans have that too but have just enough brains to think a bit more and start murdering and raping eachother. To keep the species alive anyway people have to rationalize a purpose for living, to feel important enough to keep themselves and those they like alive. So they invented a god.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Anybody who spend a moment applying their intelligence to the absurdities inplied in the common notions of God realizes just that, the connon notions of God are absurd. Most people probably don't bring much crytical analysis to the table on that score and the ones who do are so tickled with their deconstruction they get all puffed up with pride in disbelief. A third factor is that some people have personal encounters with something that makes them different. The change is of such a nature as to produce conviction. The revolution in viewpoint they experience is of such a good quality, in other words, that there isn't any chance they could be mistakened about it. So we always find a few people who know there is a God in a way (their conduct) that is impressive. But we find a few people like that everywhere and throughout time. One conclusion that can explain this is that what these people are hitting on is something universal in its effect, but cultural in what it's called. Looking at it from a scientific point of view and with the benefit of psychoanalysis as a duplicative trigger it can be discovered that what is happening is that a subumrged inner potential is being triggered in all these cases. I call that, our true nature. It may be God and it is us, but it certainly isn't us as we are, only us as we might become. So while everything about religion is completely ridiculous, everything about religion has as basis in fact. There is a heaven and hell, but most people are not conscious that they actually are in hell already. You go to heaven when you awaken to who you really are. It's just that much more inwardly satisfying and right. Miracles are possible because you operate in a completely unsuspected and invisible dimension to the rest of us. You are born again when you die because that's what it takes for the change to happen. You become immortal because time stops. Being here, takes place in the eternal now.
 

TuffGuy

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
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Wow. You said so much yet you said so little. Are you that afraid of death that you have to imagine a life after this one? Is your life so crappy that you have to believe in a place like heaven to help get you through the day?

Do you honestly think that all the mistakes you make, a lot of them repeatedly, will be forgiven if you go to confession? Do you think it's right that rapists, murderers, liars, and other sinners are "forgiven" if they find God?

And do you honestly believe that if God has a DIVINE plan already in place, he will take time out of his busy schedule to humor some silly little prayers?
 

snooker

Platinum Member
Apr 13, 2001
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I prayed daily as a kid to god because my parents made me, and would you know, not one of my prayers was ever answered. When I grew up I realised, why thank someone for the food in front of me, when it was me that worked to earn the money to buy the food to eat, not some devine power.


It is only a matter of time before we find intelligent life elsewhere out there in space (Or they find us). Once that happens, what will happen with 'We are the only ones here' theory that goes along with just about every religion?


Also, if there was 1 greater power, why would there be soooo many different religions in the world?

Each religion's 'bible' that the religion is based around is only a book, someone wrote at one point in time.


Until I see proof there is a higher power, I believe in myself only. (And even then I may see them as another species from another world somewhere out there not some higher power)

I make my own decisions, good or bad, and when something goes right, I say to myself "good job" as well as say that to whomever helped in whatever it is I am happy for.


IMO
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Have you been watching Contact again?

The Bible doesn't say anything about life on other planets. From all the seti-related evidence I've seen, the odds that 1. there is intelligent life out there 2. at this point in time and 3. that is close enough to Earth for there to be some sort of contact with are extremely slim. But it is entirely possible that God made life apart from earth. The Bible talks about the angels who were created outside "human time."

The Bible only worries about the people and problems on this planet. God must have given his other creations their own instruction book.
 

UberDave

Platinum Member
Apr 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: TuffGuy
Why in the heck did he bother creating the rest of the Universe and all those other planets and galaxies? And if so, what makes us think that he would only create us? What makes us soooo special that he would create the whole universe just for us. Isn't that kind of a waste? Wouldn't our galaxy (at most) suffice? And if he did create us in his image, why are so many people so f-ed up?

(yes, it's late)


To confuse all of us, of course.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
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Originally posted by: Stark
Have you been watching Contact again?

The Bible doesn't say anything about life on other planets. From all the seti-related evidence I've seen, the odds that 1. there is intelligent life out there 2. at this point in time and 3. that is close enough to Earth for there to be some sort of contact with are extremely slim. But it is entirely possible that God made life apart from earth. The Bible talks about the angels who were created outside "human time."

The Bible only worries about the people and problems on this planet. God must have given his other creations their own instruction book.

Too bad you still need to believe in a farce to have a reason to live.
 

Killbat

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: Stark
Have you been watching Contact again?

The Bible doesn't say anything about life on other planets. From all the seti-related evidence I've seen, the odds that 1. there is intelligent life out there 2. at this point in time and 3. that is close enough to Earth for there to be some sort of contact with are extremely slim. But it is entirely possible that God made life apart from earth. The Bible talks about the angels who were created outside "human time."

The Bible only worries about the people and problems on this planet. God must have given his other creations their own instruction book.

Too bad you still need to believe in a farce to have a reason to live.

That was totally uncalled for.

Anyway, the whole alien lifeforms and God thing... I've never really heard it discussed deeply. Probably because AFAIK none of the popular religions' texts address the issue, for reasons stated earlier in this thread, I presume. (People all those years ago were unaware of other worlds, therefore references to them, even by God himself, would be useless and misunderstood.)
And I don't think the issue will be addressed seriously, by the higher-ups of certain organized religion, until we actually find life thriving on another planet, especially intelligent life.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,801
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Wait till they've landed and tell us they came to bring us the good news, that only by believing in Om$%&&#@jaku56rebus can we be saved.