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If entropy is supposed to increase, why did we end up here?

BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76
Here, being the state of the universe as we know it.

Doesn't it seem like entropy has decreased?
 

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,777
3
81
perhaps as the universe gets larger and spreads out further the order that was once there gets more and more distorted
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Universally entropy increases. Locally it does not necessarily increase.

Is that good enough for you?
 

BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76
Originally posted by: bersl2
Because you fundamentally misunderstand the Second Law of Thermodynamics. :p
I assumed this to be the most likely scenario :)

I've just always equated entropy with the example that I read in Steven Hawkings book A brief History of Time, where he says that a mug goes from a low entropy state (a mug) to a high entropy state (a broken mug), and not the reverse.

How did we go from a cosmic explosion (a high entropy state) to what we see now (specifically life) which *appears* to be a very ordered and somewhat predictable low entropy state?
 

Leeroy

Member
Jun 26, 2006
162
0
0
Entropy
Trash Talk
Harm me with harmony.
Doomsday, drop a load on 'em.

Verse 1
Entropy, how can I explain it? I'll take it frame by frame it,
to have you all jumping, shouting saying it.
Let's just say that it's a measure of disorder,
in a system that is closed, like with a border.
It's sorta, like a, well a measurement of randomness,
proposed in 1850 by a German, but wait I digress.
"What the fvck is entropy?", I here the people still exclaiming,
it seems I gotta start the explaining.

You ever drop an egg and on the floor you see it break?
You go and get a mop so you can clean up your mistake.
But did you ever stop to ponder why we know it's true,
if you drop a broken egg you will not get an egg that's new.

That's entropy or E-N-T-R-O to the P to the Y,
the reason why the sun will one day all burn out and die.
Order from disorder is a scientific rarity,
allow me to explain it with a little bit more clarity.
Did I say rarity? I meant impossibility,
at least in a closed system there will always be more entropy.
That's entropy and I hope that you're all down with it,
if you are here's your membership.

Chorus
You down with entropy?
Yeah, you know me! (x3)
Who's down with entropy?
Every last homey!

Verse 2
Defining entropy as disorder's not complete,
'cause disorder as a definition doesn't cover heat.
So my first definition I would now like to withdraw,
and offer one that fits thermodynamics second law.
First we need to understand that entropy is energy,
energy that can't be used to state it more specifically.
In a closed system entropy always goes up,
that's the second law, now you know what's up.

You can't win, you can't break even, you can't leave the game,
'cause entropy will take it all 'though it seems a shame.
The second law, as we now know, is quite clear to state,
that entropy must increase and not dissipate.

Creationists always try to use the second law,
to disprove evolution, but their theory has a flaw.
The second law is quite precise about where it applies,
only in a closed system must the entropy count rise.
The earth's not a closed system' it's powered by the sun,
so fvck the damn creationists, Doomsday get my gun!
That, in a nutshell, is what entropy's about,
you're now down with a discount.

Chorus

Trash Talk
Hit it!
Doomsday, kick it in!
 

Shawn

Lifer
Apr 20, 2003
32,237
52
91
Originally posted by: BigToque
How did we go from a cosmic explosion (a high entropy state) to what we see now (specifically life) which *appears* to be a very ordered and somewhat predictable low entropy state?
the big bang would not have been a high entropy state. it would have started out at virtually zero entropy then continuously increasing ever since. eventually the universe will reach its maximum entropy and pretty much everything will end as there will no longer be any "usable" energy.
 

BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76
Originally posted by: Shawn
Originally posted by: BigToque
How did we go from a cosmic explosion (a high entropy state) to what we see now (specifically life) which *appears* to be a very ordered and somewhat predictable low entropy state?
the big bang would not have been a high entropy state. it would have started out at virtually zero entropy then continuously increasing ever since. eventually the universe will reach its maximum entropy and pretty much everything will end as there will no longer be any usable energy.
Well, I assumed that the moment 'before" the big bang would have been zero entropy. That said, what I see around me doesn't seem to be very high in entropy.
 

Shawn

Lifer
Apr 20, 2003
32,237
52
91
Originally posted by: BigToque
Originally posted by: Shawn
Originally posted by: BigToque
How did we go from a cosmic explosion (a high entropy state) to what we see now (specifically life) which *appears* to be a very ordered and somewhat predictable low entropy state?
the big bang would not have been a high entropy state. it would have started out at virtually zero entropy then continuously increasing ever since. eventually the universe will reach its maximum entropy and pretty much everything will end as there will no longer be any usable energy.
Well, I assumed that the moment 'before" the big bang would have been zero entropy. That said, what I see around me doesn't seem to be very high in entropy.
because what you see now is very small as far as the universe is concerned. all the stars in the sky are converting usable energy to non-usable energy (heat). eventually all of the energy will be used up and the stars will die.
 

phisrow

Golden Member
Sep 6, 2004
1,399
0
0
Locally we can get away with all kinds of things because we have a supply of outside energy(the sun may be the geek's natural foe; but it is a good power source.)

It's something like air conditioning. There is no way that running a bunch of motors and things can make a closed system colder; but it is quite possible to pump heat out of a given small system, as long as one accepts that the system as a whole will get warmer.
 

Itchrelief

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2005
1,399
0
71
Originally posted by: BigToque
That said, what I see around me doesn't seem to be very high in entropy.
You confuse rate of change of a value with the value itself.

As I understand it, entropy is always increasing, but that does not necessarily mean that at any arbitrary moment, any arbitrary system has a huge entropy. Just that at some time after that moment, if an energy exchange process has taken place, entropy has increased.

Let's say your car is accelerating (velocity is increasing), starting from rest. A very short time after the start of its accelerating, its velocity is still increasing, but the value of velocity is not necessarily huge.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Originally posted by: phisrow
Locally we can get away with all kinds of things because we have a supply of outside energy(the sun may be the geek's natural foe; but it is a good power source.)

It's something like air conditioning. There is no way that running a bunch of motors and things can make a closed system colder; but it is quite possible to pump heat out of a given small system, as long as one accepts that the system as a whole will get warmer.
Air conditioning directly causes global warming!
 

bleeb

Lifer
Feb 3, 2000
10,868
0
0
Entropy is more of the nature of things in the natural world. However, you the system can be changed to decrease the entropy.... basically what humans do to survive.
 

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