If computers, cars, etc. have designers why not the universe?

[BoomerD]

Obviously any talk of God in this forum is subject to ridicule. However you have to admit that if houses, automobiles and computers all have designers which are less complex than say DNA, the human brain and molecules. Isn't there a slight possibility that there may be a designer behind those things as well?


Can universal laws come about from chaos?

Can order be birthed from disorder?

The universe is governed by very precise laws, is it possible that it all happened by pure coincidence or chance?

Where did this "creator" come from? Where was "he" before he created all this? What did "he" use for building materials? Where did he build all this? (what was here first?)

 

[moonbogg]

If the universe was designed, it was designed to look exactly like it would if it wasn't designed. So this is a pointless discussion without more information. Oh, but I suppose you have that information and it was beamed into your head by god.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Where did this "creator" come from? Where was "he" before he created all this? What did "he" use for building materials? Where did he build all this? (what was here first?)

Its pretty obvious, it was all built on his work bench.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Where did this "creator" come from? Where was "he" before he created all this? What did "he" use for building materials? Where did he build all this? (what was here first?)

temporarality makes no sense form God's perspective.

 

[BoomerD]

temporarality makes no sense form God's perspective.

So...just make up shit when you have no real answer? Gotcha.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

So...just make up shit when you have no real answer? Gotcha.

You got a better answer?

The definition of God, as per the bible, is "the beginning and end" I have derived from this that God is a-temporal.

 

[lxskllr]

You got a better answer?

The definition of God, as per the bible, is "the beginning and end" I have derived from this that God is a-temporal.

God is clearly a donut.

 

[Ichinisan]

God is clearly a donut.

...one with infinite dimensions.

 

[SSSnail]

You can call a flying spaghetti monster the masterful toe fungus of all inherent reality or attribute it to butter cup of the power puff girls. However if a nike gym shoe or a j crew sweater needs a designer, is it really such a stretch of imagination to believe that a complex being such as a human or the law of gravity would not also need a designer?

I agreed with you, that we human probably have a designer, and it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

BTW, don't tell anyone this, but, I designed your god.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

God is clearly a donut.

Kindof:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/before-big-bang.htm


In an infinite number of universes an infinite number of potentials exist and the stable potential, one with a God unifying and stabilizing existence, seems an evolutionary possibility given the morass.

From our perspective the God that controls all stability in all universes would be dictator of 'good', and 'true' because that's how the universe was created.

We can tell that we do not exist in a good universe because the nature of this universe is toward decay; that said, a good God should know what happened in all of the unstable universes and thus be able to re-create the stable "good" parts of us. And may even be the basic-cause of the stability in all chaotic universes.

Lots of guesses here; but what I'm saying is that science has, far from dismissing the case for God, only added to the beauty for those with faith.

Clearly folks that need solipsistic arguments to defend their faith... well they may be good targets for atheists.

Obviously the above is the coolest of stories...




bro

 

[Red Squirrel]

It only makes sense that the universe and everything as we know it has a designer. I pity the fool who think otherwise.

If you put enough monkeys and typewriters in a room they might eventually write a novel, but if there are no monkeys and no typewriters and just an empty room, that room will stay empty forever no matter how much time you throw at it. Especially if this room is actually a vacuum with not a single particle.

 

[gorobei]

hmmmm order, complexity, but no actual willful designer involved in creation process.

Bismuth crystal says i can do this all by myself.

(mostly posting to up Bismuth's PR quotient. such a bad ass metal, way cooler than Mercury's attention whoring punk ass.)

 

[theevilsharpie]

If you put enough monkeys and typewriters in a room they might eventually write a novel, but if there are no monkeys and no typewriters and just an empty room, that room will stay empty forever no matter how much time you throw at it. Especially if this room is actually a vacuum with not a single particle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

 

[Timorous]

If you invoke a creator you bring up the obvious question of where did this creator come from and that ultimately leads to a turtles all the way down argument (infinite recursion).

One assumption that is made when you invoke a creator is that there was a state prior to the creation of the universe. There was a time before T=0 but I do not see that actually being true. Time and space are linked as Einstein has shown, we know this is true because GPS works. Without space there is no time and without time there is no space so anything before time is by default before space and such a concept is miles beyond anything we can currently grasp.

A second assumption that is made is that nothingness is a stable state of existence. We know that particles pop into existence for very brief periods so why are we assuming that a state of nothing is the default state. If you look at entropy then that always increases in a closed system. The universe as a whole is a closed system and as such entropy will increase. A state of nothingness would arguably be a state where entropy is 0 and for it to increase something must happen.

Of course a creator is a possibility but we have no reason to believe that a creator is the only possible option and without any evidence for any of the options at this time it is a bit of a pointless topic until we get some evidence. I am not saying that the search for evidence itself is pointless though and I do think that is a rather important area of research.

 

[ch33zw1z]

OK, I'll play. The Flying Spaghetti Monster designed all this. That right there, is just as valid as any of your God designed theories.

I recently joined the Church of FSM Saints, and was baptized in his saucy goodness. I felt intertwined in his warm, noodlely embrace. Since then, I've been trying to spread the good word.

 

[Braznor]

Good work, OP.

Keep questioning. That's the true scientific spirit. Never accept blindly the advise or reasoning of your predecessors, regardless he/she be a priest or scientist.

 

[sdifox]

Obviously any talk of God in this forum is subject to ridicule. However you have to admit that if houses, automobiles and computers all have designers which are less complex than say DNA, the human brain and molecules. Isn't there a slight possibility that there may be a designer behind those things as well?


Can universal laws come about from chaos?

Can order be birthed from disorder?

The universe is governed by very precise laws, is it possible that it all happened by pure coincidence or chance?

Time. You are comparing billions to thousands of years.

 

[TheShiz]

I often get letters, quite frequently, from people who say how they like the programmes a lot, but I never give credit to the almighty power that created nature. To which I reply and say, "Well, it's funny that the people, when they say that this is evidence of the Almighty, always quote beautiful things. They always quote orchids and hummingbirds and butterflies and roses." But I always have to think too of a little boy sitting on the banks of a river in west Africa who has a worm boring through his eyeball, turning him blind before he's five years old. And I reply and say, "Well, presumably the God you speak about created the worm as well," and now, I find that baffling to credit a merciful God with that action. And therefore it seems to me safer to show things that I know to be truth, truthful and factual, and allow people to make up their own minds about the moralities of this thing, or indeed the theology of this thing.

- David Attenborough

 

[Lonyo]

Obviously any talk of God in this forum is subject to ridicule. However you have to admit that if houses, automobiles and computers all have designers which are less complex than say DNA, the human brain and molecules. Isn't there a slight possibility that there may be a designer behind those things as well?


Can universal laws come about from chaos?

Can order be birthed from disorder?

The universe is governed by very precise laws, is it possible that it all happened by pure coincidence or chance?

The universe is governed by precise laws because the universe came about due to those precise laws.

The laws were there, and the universe formed around them, so of course the universe is governed by those laws, because those laws caused it to exist in the way it is.
To use the fact that everything "fits" around us and the way the universe is is thinking about it from the wrong direction. We fit in with our environment, we exist in the way we are because of the environment which led to us existing, the environment wasn't created in order for us to exist.
We fit in with it, it doesn't fit around us.

The randomness and chaos which happened caused us to come about. It is the monkey/typewriter thing, only we are the end product, and people look at it from the other direction, as though we had the end product and were trying to recreate Shakespeare. No, Shakespeare was created by those monkeys with typewriters, and that's why we are.
Try it again, and next time one small variation may mean that no, we don't exist, or we don't exist as we currently are.
That chaos CAUSED us, we weren't guaranteed to exist and the chaos just happened to be organised so we could exist. The chaos happened to organise itself so that the conditions were there which allowed us to then eventually exist.

Turn your viewpoint around and think about things the other way. We come from the conditions, so of course the conditions fit everything perfectly. If the conditions were different, the end product would be different, and we wouldn't be here to even think about it...

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

The laws were there, and the universe formed around them, so of course the universe is governed by those laws, because those laws caused it to exist in the way it is.
To use the fact that everything "fits" around us and the way the universe is is thinking about it from the wrong direction. We fit in with our environment, we exist in the way we are because of the environment which led to us existing, the environment wasn't created in order for us to exist.
We fit in with it, it doesn't fit around us.

Turn your viewpoint around and think about things the other way. We come from the conditions, so of course the conditions fit everything perfectly. If the conditions were different, the end product would be different, and we wouldn't be here to even think about it...

People that believe soundly in god usually have a very self-centered view. Asking them to understand it from a different perspective is useless. Obviously, this universe was "created" for them.

Why does god get a free pass on being designed? Surely, something so complex must have a designer if the logic of the OP applies, but he magically doesn't. Why? Just because basically. It's an easy out to explain things. You'd think anyone looking back on the history of human knowledge watching the gaps from which god can exist as the cause of things shrink they would smarten up a little.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Silly monkeys.

Everybody just baselessly assumes that the universe has a beginning, and then you're so mystified about how all that is could seemingly pop into existence.

When you see the sun rise over the horizon, is it reasonable to believe that it is popping into existence from nothingness every morning? When you can no longer see the sun, do you believe that it has ceased to exist?

There is another horizon that you don't hear about much: an event horizon. An event horizon encircles a singularity like that at the center of black holes and at the center of the big bang. We cannot see the universe beyond the event horizon like we cannot see the sun beyond the earth's horizon. Why then do we assume on the case of the universe that it is popping into existence whereas the sun exists even when we cannot see it? Because you like how nearly it fits with your theological narrative?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The universe is governed by precise laws because the universe came about due to those precise laws.

Wrong. We have abstracted certain regularities from the behavior of the universe, and we describe them as physical laws and principles. There are no little physics fairies constantly policing the universe to make sure it abides by the laws we interpreted from our observations.

Don't confuse the map with the territory.

 

[DrPizza]

Obviously any talk of God in this forum is subject to ridicule. However you have to admit that if houses, automobiles and computers all have designers which are less complex than say DNA, the human brain and molecules. Isn't there a slight possibility that there may be a designer behind those things as well?


Can universal laws come about from chaos?

Can order be birthed from disorder?

The universe is governed by very precise laws, is it possible that it all happened by pure coincidence or chance?

So in other words you have no original thoughts or viewpoints to offer.


Thanks for playing. The exist is right to your left. Have a good day sir!

You should have replied to the OP with that. It would have been the perfect first reply.

 

[Lonyo]

Wrong. We have abstracted certain regularities from the behavior of the universe, and we describe them as physical laws and principles. There are no little physics fairies constantly policing the universe to make sure it abides by the laws we interpreted from our observations.

Don't confuse the map with the territory.

Tell it to the OP, not to me.
My point is that the particular laws or rules or whatever else, however you describe it, is irrelevant. We are here because of them, not despite them

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Tell it to the OP, not to me.
My point is that the particular laws or rules or whatever else, however you describe it, is irrelevant. We are here because of them, not despite them

No, you still have it backwards. The laws are here because of the universe, not the other way around. The land does not exist because someone drew a map of it.