If computers, cars, etc. have designers why not the universe?

[Dr. Zaus]

So, who is right and who wrong?

Everyone, and every idea is wrong at some level (this sentence included).

 

[AnonymouseUser]

You see, I have already addressed this point AnonymouseUser. Yes, there was a level of caricature which turned into hyperbole and then out-right silly ness. But this started after the eye-witnesses died and couldn't keep the story in check any longer.

At the time eye-witnesses agreeing together about what happened was the definition of rigorous documentation.

So yes, what you are talking about did happen: But it seems historically unlikely that pre 100AD documents contain this to an extensive degree because, otherwise, the stories would, could and should have been much more fantastic and divergent.

I should note that I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, so I know all too well about defending the Bible and my beliefs (if only I could take all that back, sheesh). Once I really started to examine facts, though, all bets were off.

What's really interesting as well, is that the JW's very much realize that Christianity is based on sun worship, yet they pretend Christianity was usurped later, rather than that being the original story. It really all makes sense once you look at it as an unbiased researcher. Christianity was just another step in the evolution of religion from polytheism to monotheism.

 

[moonbogg]

I don't buy the whole "christianity = sunworship" thing. It was just pulled from the ass of scribes and well intentioned, but mistaken ancient people. I worked with some JWs and they were the most stuck-up people i've ever met. They wouldn't talk to people who weren't JW and would just ingore them (unless they were knocking on their door)

 

[AnonymouseUser]

I don't buy the whole "christianity = sunworship" thing. It was just pulled from the ass of scribes and well intentioned, but mistaken ancient people. I worked with some JWs and they were the most stuck-up people i've ever met. They wouldn't talk to people who weren't JW and would just ingore them (unless they were knocking on their door)

Of course they don't want you talking to others, they don't want you thinking "outside the box."

As for sun worship, deny it all you want but it's the truth.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Because its necessary for us to exist at all.

It shouldn't be if god is all powerful and created the universe and the rules on which it works. He then could have created one that did not necessitate evil.

 

[momeNt]

It shouldn't be if god is all powerful and created the universe and the rules on which it works. He then could have created one that did not necessitate evil.

Maybe we don't even know what evil is. We simply are, and all we do is God's good. Boy you don't even want to know what God's evil is.

 

[sandorski]

Maybe we don't even know what evil is. We simply are, and all we do is God's good. Boy you don't even want to know what God's evil is.

But we do know it. It's in the Bible.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I should note that I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, so I know all too well about defending the Bible and my beliefs (if only I could take all that back, sheesh). Once I really started to examine facts, though, all bets were off.

What's really interesting as well, is that the JW's very much realize that Christianity is based on sun worship, yet they pretend Christianity was usurped later, rather than that being the original story. It really all makes sense once you look at it as an unbiased researcher. Christianity was just another step in the evolution of religion from polytheism to monotheism.

So the JWs have a problem... They translate text inconsistently inorder to attain an effect they set-out to find before they started the translation. It's just strait-up lies that passed for knowledge before we had an internet to check facts.

I don't know what box they've put you in; but failing to recognize that we've got some of the strongest possible historical evidence for the existence of Jesus is the intelectual equivalent of that JW simply refusing to recognize that the watchtower group translates the same word different ways.

That Jesus historically existed has been well hashed out on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

after that we get what we can establish bout the life of Jesus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus#Two_basic_historical_facts


It takes a much stronger mind to recognize the best available facts and create a world-view around them than it does to choose a world view and then attach yourself to bits of information that are in-line with that world view.

 

[Arkitech]

So, who is right and who wrong?

There is no right or wrong in this case. Before the other portions of the bible were completed the Israelites read and studied the Torah. As other writing were completed eventually the bible was formed as we know it.

 

[IronWing]

No gods: no problems
One god: one psychopath
Two gods: one passive aggressive wimp, one psychopath
More than two gods: soap opera, no problems

 

[AnonymouseUser]

So the JWs have a problem... They translate text inconsistently inorder to attain an effect they set-out to find before they started the translation. It's just strait-up lies that passed for knowledge before we had an internet to check facts.

Yes, the JW translate text inconsistently because they want to believe that the sun god worship isn't really a part of Christianity, but no matter how you wash it it's there. They don't want to worship the sun, directly or indirectly, and they don't like to be associated with all the other "Christians" that "defiled" the name of Christianity over the centuries.

Personally, I can't say I blame them. There are many Christians, past and present, who do the same by pretending those former Christians that performed horrific acts in the name of Christianity weren't true Christians.

I don't know what box they've put you in; but failing to recognize that we've got some of the strongest possible historical evidence for the existence of Jesus is the intelectual equivalent of that JW simply refusing to recognize that the watchtower group translates the same word different ways.

That Jesus historically existed has been well hashed out on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

after that we get what we can establish bout the life of Jesus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus#Two_basic_historical_facts


It takes a much stronger mind to recognize the best available facts and create a world-view around them than it does to choose a world view and then attach yourself to bits of information that are in-line with that world view.

I'm not in any box since I've broken free from the mental prison that is religion and can see religion for what it truly is. There is no proof that Jesus lived, only people who, for whatever reason, believe he did.

If you truly believe that a woman was "divinely" impregnated by a ghost in the sky so she could give birth to himself so he could die for us and be resurrected to return to heaven to live with himself then you've got some serious issues. Hell, you'd probably even believe that a snake actually spoke to a woman in a mythical garden somewhere, that a man parted an ocean by waving his staff, that a river was turned to wine, that a man named Noah collected two of every animal and kept them all on a boat for 40 days 190 days, etc, etc. I mean come on, everyone knows the story of the flood is just a rehash of an older myth.

 

[sandorski]

Every group interprets the Bible inconsistently. That's why there are 1000's of Christian Denominations with their own doctrines.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

There is no right or wrong in this case. Before the other portions of the bible were completed the Israelites read and studied the Torah. As other writing were completed eventually the bible was formed as we know it.

There is indeed right and wrong.

The coming of the Messiah is VERY specific, it's one of the prophesies that isn't vague and can be interpreted to fit no matter how much Christians want it to.

According to the prophesies regarding the coming of the Messiah written IN THE TORAH Jesus CANNOT have been the Messiah because he did not fulfill them.

Christians get around this by claiming that Jesus will fulfill them when he returns but there is nothing about that in the prophesies. It's just made up since the prophesies weren't fulfilled.

Just so you know it, there isn't a religious Jew that believes that crap because it goes against the most important prophecy in the Torah. Christianity may be many things but a continuation of Judaism it is NOT.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

So the JWs have a problem... They translate text inconsistently inorder to attain an effect they set-out to find before they started the translation. It's just strait-up lies that passed for knowledge before we had an internet to check facts.

I don't know what box they've put you in; but failing to recognize that we've got some of the strongest possible historical evidence for the existence of Jesus is the intelectual equivalent of that JW simply refusing to recognize that the watchtower group translates the same word different ways.

That Jesus historically existed has been well hashed out on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

after that we get what we can establish bout the life of Jesus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus#Two_basic_historical_facts


It takes a much stronger mind to recognize the best available facts and create a world-view around them than it does to choose a world view and then attach yourself to bits of information that are in-line with that world view.

Yesterday i was out walking and raised a dead cat.

Now, it can be verified that i was out walking yesterday so obviously my story is true?

I'm of the opinion that historical Jesus existed (however, carpenter living and then dying isn't much of a story). The Messiah claims were quite frequent at the time though, there is more truth in "The life of Brian" than there ever was in the Bible.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

AnonymouseUser:

Your "opinion" is based off of factually incorrect information.

Your perspective was laid out well by the first Zeitgeist movie and is well refuted here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFI6m6Icav4

Yesterday i was out walking and raised a dead cat.

Now, it can be verified that i was out walking yesterday so obviously my story is true?

It's a matter of collecting the inter-observer agreements regarding what Jesus said, said he did, and was seen doing.

If I was coming from your perspective, I would take each of those kinds of description of the life of Jesus with differing levels of "probable" veracity.

I'm of the opinion that historical Jesus existed (however, carpenter living and then dying isn't much of a story). The Messiah claims were quite frequent at the time though, there is more truth in "The life of Brian" than there ever was in the Bible.

Now, this is a reasoned opinion.

Don't deny facts; accept then and build a world view based on them.

I, though, disagree with you, JoS, for a number of reasons; but I entirely respect the perspective.

Just so you know it, there isn't a religious Jew that believes that crap because it goes against the most important prophecy in the Torah. Christianity may be many things but a continuation of Judaism it is NOT.

I know a number of Messianic jews that believe in Jesus.

Every group interprets the Bible inconsistently. That's why there are 1000's of Christian Denominations with their own doctrines.

There's a factual difference between translating a word one way here and another a few paragraphs down vs. typical disagreements over the meaning of those translated words.

Catholics and Pentecostals are fairly far apart in how they interpret the bible; but neither of them agree with the JW mis-translation of the bible (nor does any atheist scholar looking at it).

 

[sdifox]

There is no right or wrong in this case. Before the other portions of the bible were completed the Israelites read and studied the Torah. As other writing were completed eventually the bible was formed as we know it.

Pork.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Pork.

This is why Christians can eat pork :

9 Around noon the next day, while Cornelius’ men were on their way and coming close to Joppa, Peter went on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted to eat. While the food was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw the sky open and something like a large linen sheet being lowered by its four corners to the ground. 12 In the sheet were all kinds of four-footed animals, reptiles, and birds.

13 A voice told him, “Get up, Peter! Kill these animals, and eat them.”

14 Peter answered, “I can’t do that, Lord! I’ve never eaten anything that is impure or unclean.”

15 A voice spoke to him a second time, “Don’t say that the things which God has made clean are impure.”

 

[sdifox]

This is why Christians can eat pork :

So the Jews got it wrong then...:awe:

 

[Dr. Zaus]

So the Jews got it wrong then...:awe:

:awe:
Any religion that precludes bacon is against my religion.

 

[AnonymouseUser]

Your perspective was laid out well by the first Zeitgeist movie and is well refuted here:

Actually, it just gave me a different perspective about the sun worship, not any new ideas.

So I take it you do actually believe in talking snakes and donkeys, people raising the dead, people turning into salt, fiery pits of everlasting torture, a flood that wiped out nearly all living creatures, virgin births, 1,000 year old men, bears mauling 42 children for mocking a bald man, etc, etc? Did you actually think about these things or do you just believe them because they are written in a book and someone said it was all true?

So how did you come to the realization that Christianity was the correct religion? Did you research several religions first, or just the one? Or maybe you were just born to parents who were Christians (what luck!)? But how do you know you are in the correct sect of Christianity? Same research as before? Are you sure you read the correct translation of the Bible, or did you read the Greek and Hebrew translations? Do history books corroborate all of the stories of the Bible? Surely you take it all serious enough to do your due diligence.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Those are some good, sincere, questions.

++ respect for you

So I take it you do actually believe in talking snakes and donkeys, people raising the dead, people turning into salt,

I believe these are stories told for a reason and they should be understood from the stylistics they were written in.

fiery pits of everlasting torture,

This one is just bullshit created by Dante.

a flood that wiped out nearly all living creatures,

There's a BIG difference between 'world' (old world, new world, Arab world etc.) as written the bible and 'entire earth'. If I'm to take this story factually then it must have happend on a different "spiritual level" than what we call reality: same with the story of adam and eve. That or a useful story about how to live your life picked up by the local population and reified in the torra.

virgin birth

I accept this on faith. I agree this part is irrational and I've got no excuse for it except that I believe it because of what I've read of Jesus' teachings and my experiences (ie family not crack addicts, visions I've had etc) with faith in Christ.

Did you actually think about these things or do you just believe them because they are written in a book and someone said it was all true?

Of course I think about them; like you (and nearly everyone else on this forum) i'm a smart, deep thinking, knowledgeable person.

So how did you come to the realization that Christianity was the correct religion?

It's the right religion for me because I'm a Christian and I'm happy with who I am and where Christ being in my life is bringing me. As I've said, if you are happy with who you are then stick with it! If you unahppy then I know of a way to change it (and I'm accepting of anyone of any other path that may want to make the same offer)

Did you research several religions first, or just the one?

I've experienced this one and it's worked out rather well so far.

Or maybe you were just born to parents who were Christians (what luck!)?

I was born to crack addicts (just pot heads when I was born...) that used the name of Jesus and the ideas of Salvation and Forgiveness to justify being abusive and neglectful of us.

As I said previously; people that ascribe to the 'religion' of Christianity without having ever needed Jesus are the backbone of evil in our society.

But how do you know you are in the correct sect of Christianity?

I'm probably not a 'baptist' any more because their hate for homosexuals and belief in eternal damnation don't fit my religious perspective any longer... also I don't have 10% extra cash lying around. So I've not been to church for a while. I should probably find some folks that agree with me.

Are you sure you read the correct translation of the Bible, or did you read the Greek and Hebrew translations?

When it matters I delve deeply; I don't speak hebrew or greek but I know a few people that do. I usually read multiple translations to try and triangulate on a meaning that's meaningful to me. There are also a number of concordances that try to locate the words/verses in their proper historical meaning/context.

Do history books corroborate all of the stories of the Bible?

You'll have to be a little more specific on this one. The 'history of the bible' shows often dwell on a few rogue scholar's perspectives and should be taken with the same salt-lick that the 'ancient aliens' shows should be taken with.

Surely you take it all serious enough to do your due diligence.

More work than most companies undertake when conducting M&As!

 

[Retro Rob]

I once hired a guy to build be a nice, 30,000 sq ft home... my dream home.

So, I picked him up in my car and drove him to the plot of land I had bought. He said "sure, I can put a home here for you for a price of $$$". I said "ok" and that I would provide him with the needed directions/blueprints and a supply. He was elated!

He came back a couple days later with his team of guys ready to get started. I had all the permits and everything. He then asked: "ok, where are the supplies?". I then handed him and his team a hammer and screw driver apiece, a bag of cement, and pack of nuts/bolts/nails and told them to get to work.

He was baffled and said "we can't build you a house.. you haven't given us what we need". I told him to look around himself and look at the things around us. Those came from nothing, and so can this house. I gave him something, though.. enough to get the job done. Needless to say he quit and they left.

Better still, I stopped him and offered to give him all the supplies. Even some of the cosmetics like a flat-screen, furniture, computer, outdoor pool material, paint, enough concrete, etc. We came back and piled all of this stuff on the foundation. I ended up firing him because all I needed was a nuclear explosion and out would come a well-built, strong house. After all, our human civilization was made this way -- the right chemicals, and a well-timed explosion... who needs a freaking contractor???

Needless to say, all I got was a pile of fire and rubble.... ... not my dream home.

 

[pmv]

More to the point. if computers and cars have warranties why can't I RTMA the universe?

This one's faulty.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I once hired a guy to build be a nice, 30,000 sq ft home... my dream home.

So, I picked him up in my car and drove him to the plot of land I had bought. He said "sure, I can put a home here for you for a price of $$$". I said "ok" and that I would provide him with the needed directions/blueprints and a supply. He was elated!

He came back a couple days later with his team of guys ready to get started. I had all the permits and everything. He then asked: "ok, where are the supplies?". I then handed him and his team a hammer and screw driver apiece, a bag of cement, and pack of nuts/bolts/nails and told them to get to work.

He was baffled and said "we can't build you a house.. you haven't given us what we need". I told him to look around himself and look at the things around us. Those came from nothing, and so can this house. I gave him something, though.. enough to get the job done. Needless to say he quit and they left.

Better still, I stopped him and offered to give him all the supplies. Even some of the cosmetics like a flat-screen, furniture, computer, outdoor pool material, paint, enough concrete, etc. We came back and piled all of this stuff on the foundation. I ended up firing him because all I needed was a nuclear explosion and out would come a well-built, strong house. After all, our human civilization was made this way -- the right chemicals, and a well-timed explosion... who needs a freaking contractor???

Needless to say, all I got was a pile of fire and rubble.... ... not my dream home.

Good job sounding ignorant as hell buddy.

Evolution by selection is a lab-experimental fact. The only question left is "can nature select?"; seems fairly reasonable to argue it can.

 

[AnonymouseUser]

Those are some good, sincere, questions.

++ respect for you

Thanks, and thanks also for answering these questions honestly.

I believe these are stories told for a reason and they should be understood from the stylistics they were written in.

Yet many are taught and do believe that these are all true stories. If you don't believe some stories of the Bible, how can you believe all of them?

This one is just bullshit created by Dante.

Ahh, glad to know you know the truth about that. :thumbsup:

There's a BIG difference between 'world' (old world, new world, Arab world etc.) as written the bible and 'entire earth'. If I'm to take this story factually then it must have happend on a different "spiritual level" than what we call reality: same with the story of adam and eve. That or a useful story about how to live your life picked up by the local population and reified in the torra.

How do you know which was truly intended, though? Are you sure you're not just attempting to rationalize parts that don't make any sense, in order to make it more palatable and believable to your own conscience? It is a very tall tale, yet many are taught this story as if it were all factual and true.

I accept this on faith. I agree this part is irrational and I've got no excuse for it except that I believe it because of what I've read of Jesus' teachings and my experiences (ie family not crack addicts, visions I've had etc) with faith in Christ.


Of course I think about them; like you (and nearly everyone else on this forum) i'm a smart, deep thinking, knowledgeable person.

Well I was raised in an environment where you were told to never question the Bible, so I and many other children never gave it much thought. Thankfully I did open my mind and begin to think for myself, though it was much later than it should have been. Still, I think it's very wrong to teach children such stories as if they were real.

It's the right religion for me because I'm a Christian and I'm happy with who I am and where Christ being in my life is bringing me. As I've said, if you are happy with who you are then stick with it! If you unahppy then I know of a way to change it (and I'm accepting of anyone of any other path that may want to make the same offer)

I've experienced this one and it's worked out rather well so far.

Well if it works for you then I'm not going to argue against it. Religion is, in my opinion, mostly just philosophical, and when used correctly can be a powerful tool to keep people level-headed and out of trouble. However, it can also create powerful evil and cause massive amounts of damage to people and entire families. I would love to see more groups and gatherings dealing with life choices and morality without involving religion or a belief in a deity. Some parents and children need all the help they can get.

I was born to crack addicts (just pot heads when I was born...) that used the name of Jesus and the ideas of Salvation and Forgiveness to justify being abusive and neglectful of us.

Sorry to hear about your parents, and glad you've managed to stay level-headed and sober given the life you were born into.

As I said previously; people that ascribe to the 'religion' of Christianity without having ever needed Jesus are the backbone of evil in our society.

Yep, as I touched on earlier, belief in a deity that you believe is the ultimate authority and who will forgive you simply because of that belief can be and is the root of untold evil in some people.

I'm probably not a 'baptist' any more because their hate for homosexuals and belief in eternal damnation don't fit my religious perspective any longer... also I don't have 10% extra cash lying around. So I've not been to church for a while. I should probably find some folks that agree with me.

This is a typical reaction when someone's choice of religion deviates from their own views, and why we have so many different sects within Christianity and other religions. That begs the question, though: Does religion shape us, or do we shape religion?

When it matters I delve deeply; I don't speak hebrew or greek but I know a few people that do. I usually read multiple translations to try and triangulate on a meaning that's meaningful to me. There are also a number of concordances that try to locate the words/verses in their proper historical meaning/context.

At least you try, which is more than can be said for most people.

You'll have to be a little more specific on this one. The 'history of the bible' shows often dwell on a few rogue scholar's perspectives and should be taken with the same salt-lick that the 'ancient aliens' shows should be taken with.

Well, given the importance and scope of many of the events, one would think there would be many different records of each and every one of them, yet there isn't much at all (if any) historical records of most. Even the first-hand accounts of Jesus weren't penned until some 40 years after Jesus' death. Seems awful suspicious to me.

More work than most companies undertake when conducting M&As!

I wouldn't doubt it!