IDF closes Palestinian school to make way for West Bank training zone

[cybrsage]

Still waiting for Lemon law to answer this question:

Do you want Israel to do nothing about illegally built settlements?

 

[Phokus]

Right of Eminent Domain...

Yeah, except a) You get fair market compensation by the government when they exercise that right, b) Palestinians aren't Israelis, the analogy doesn't work here, and c) Israel is using that "right" to cause further suffering to the Palestinians.

A better analogy would be if Mexico was being punished under Apartheid rule from the US and the US constantly stole Mexico's land in order to cause more suffering to them.

Closing down an elementary school? You Israeli apologists have no depths that you will sink to.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Before we move to plan B let us examine the assumption that pigs should fly. Suppose black people have to ride in the back of the bus in some country where all people are said to be equal. What would the logical next step be, that Blacks should not be, that Blacks can only drive cars with controls in the back seat? When you scrape away all the horse manure bigotry that surrounds the Palestinian Israeli issues, it a legitimate legal issue remains. Shouldn't a country do it's military training on land it owns and the ownership of which is legally settled?

Even if some colors of people are superior to others, practice democracy or go to church, have better government, are less hypocritical, etc, etc etc in all the often delusional superior ways the people tell themselves, does that give them the right to force inferior people to ride in the back of the bus? Don't you think that morally superior people are obliged to demonstrate it by acting toward the others as if they were just as superior? Otherwise, it would seem to me, that we are left always with the ends justify the means.

Twelve years? And we know that justice delayed is justice denied. Didn't Jesus come to tell the Jews they would not be saved by law alone?

The greatest force for good in the Jewish world is other Jews. They have a system of beliefs where some times in some places a sense of justice emerges which corresponds to our deepest humanity. It would be nice of plan B were to insure that the life experiences of Palestinians does the same.

There are no Jews and there are no Palestinians. We are all the same.

The mind that sees difference is a mind that divides. The mind that sees sameness is a mind that unites.

That last is the heart of the problem. In a world as it might be Israel could contract to it's original borders, but as Eagle Keeper has said Jordan took control of the area with no more authority than anyone else. The Ottoman Empire is gone. The people of Israel want their children to live unharmed. I have no doubt the Palestinians do as well. The problem is to determine what one has, what one values and what one is willing to surrender. A major players states as a core principle that it wants Jews dead. If that cannot be changed then Israel will not either. If someone feels that killing your children is their moral obligation and those threatened accept it then that is the day that pigs fly.

The Israeli's aren't the monsters that LL wants them to be and at heart neither are the Palestinians. There is evil in the world though as quaint as that concept may be. When the few are willing to see their own in a hopeless situation in order to have control and execute their own plans. I consider Hamas such an organization since they again have as their want the extermination of the Jews.

Israel will respond and not trust those who have this as a guiding philosophy and so nothing happens.

You and I and many others would see peace, but until that's wanted by the participants in question and a basis of trust is formed at the most basic level of "if you don't try to kill me I won't try to kill you" then we have what we see. If there are demons they aren't the people themselves, but those who would use them.

 

[Moonbeam]

The West Bank is land under Israel control. Jordan did not want it when they illegally took it.

Until the Palestinians get control from Israel - safety of the occupants of that land is the responsibility of Israel.


Tell that to the Arabs and Palestinians

Is being under Israeli control the same as having clear title to the land? Do you think it right to practice bombing on land you don't have clear title to regardless of who has responsibility there, and thus perhaps conveniently creating a safety issue that requires removal of people? I do not tell Arabs or Palestinians much of anything because I don't have any real contact with them. I merely suggest that Jews who do have contact tell them by how they treat them. I strive to treat all people alike in my life.

Yesterday I was in China Town to buy a cast iron wok and a Propane burner. When I entered the store there was a middle aged Chinese woman talking on the phone so I went and looked around. When she came to help me I asked a question about one of the woks and she became extremely angry telling me that she could speak English.

Now, since her English and her race were of total irrelevance to me, this came as something of a surprise, trying to figure out what had happened to set this anger off. Hehehehe. I told her her English was far from my mind and apologized for whatever I had done to give her that impression. She referred to some sort of hesitation I had seemed to have in my speech. Perhaps she mistook my incapacity to speak English well regarding details I wished to learn about woks looked like parody.

But the fact that I had responded with politeness instead of affront had us soon the best of buddies. I didn't react with resentment that she had seen in me something that wasn't there. We reached our true commonality. I wanted to buy and she wanted to sell.

 

[Moonbeam]

That last is the heart of the problem. In a world as it might be Israel could contract to it's original borders, but as Eagle Keeper has said Jordan took control of the area with no more authority than anyone else. The Ottoman Empire is gone. The people of Israel want their children to live unharmed. I have no doubt the Palestinians do as well. The problem is to determine what one has, what one values and what one is willing to surrender. A major players states as a core principle that it wants Jews dead. If that cannot be changed then Israel will not either. If someone feels that killing your children is their moral obligation and those threatened accept it then that is the day that pigs fly.

The Israeli's aren't the monsters that LL wants them to be and at heart neither are the Palestinians. There is evil in the world though as quaint as that concept may be. When the few are willing to see their own in a hopeless situation in order to have control and execute their own plans. I consider Hamas such an organization since they again have as their want the extermination of the Jews.

Israel will respond and not trust those who have this as a guiding philosophy and so nothing happens.

You and I and many others would see peace, but until that's wanted by the participants in question and a basis of trust is formed at the most basic level of "if you don't try to kill me I won't try to kill you" then we have what we see. If there are demons they aren't the people themselves, but those who would use them.

The question is, do you kill the children of folk who want to kill your children or do you treat them as you want your own children treated. If the ends do not justify the means then somebody will have to demonstrate that in action. It is always the obligation for the more conscious party to lead. I believe that just like in the US, there are sane and insane Jews in Israel. Israel, like every nation, has two options, to evolve morally or to sink to the level of their opposition. I see much there by way of an eye for an eye as well as complete and total religious fanaticism, the products of hate and fear. If you are morally superior you not only have to act like it, you have to really believe it, feel in your bones that the ends do not justify the means.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The question is, do you kill the children of folk who want to kill your children or do you treat them as you want your own children treated. If the ends do not justify the means then somebody will have to demonstrate that in action. It is always the obligation for the more conscious party to lead. I believe that just like in the US, there are sane and insane Jews in Israel. Israel, like every nation, has two options, to evolve morally or to sink to the level of their opposition. I see much there by way of an eye for an eye as well as complete and total religious fanaticism, the products of hate and fear. If you are morally superior you not only have to act like it, you have to really believe it, feel in your bones that the ends do not justify the means.

I'd not kill their children, but neither would I let them kill mine. Are there those in Israel who suffer from hate or grief or hate born of the latter? Since they are everywhere I'd say yes. Are those who would use the situation for profit or power or prestige? Again, yes. On the whole I'd say that the Israeli's do not want to see the Palestinians dead as some would seem to indicate. They could have done so already.

Nevertheless, one can only work with what is. If the Palestinians want preconditions, then let them present them. The Israeli's can have one too. Give up as a basic premise the extermination of the Jews. If that isn't possible then meet with Abbas and talk, and if he has reasonable ideas then go with them, however the specter of genocidal thinking will forever haunt the Jewish people when dealing with those who would commit it. That's not all of the Palestinians, nor all of their leaders, but a significant part of the latter.

When dealing with an imperfect world and people trust is hard to come by. That needs to be gained and that's a damned scarce thing indeed in the ME.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Yeah, except a) You get fair market compensation by the government when they exercise that right, b) Palestinians aren't Israelis, the analogy doesn't work here, and c) Israel is using that "right" to cause further suffering to the Palestinians.

A better analogy would be if Mexico was being punished under Apartheid rule from the US and the US constantly stole Mexico's land in order to cause more suffering to them.

Closing down an elementary school? You Israeli apologists have no depths that you will sink to.

But you refuse to look at why it was closed - Safety.

Or are you like LL and want these children to be in harms way. :\

 

[Lemon law]

Still waiting for Lemon law to answer this question:

Do you want Israel to do nothing about illegally built settlements?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I want Israel to tear them down, when did you get confused on that position.

 

[Oyeve]

Shows you that Israel is truely a free country and they have civil rights, etc. Their freedom of the Press is alive and well, and they are a flourishing democracy.

Unlike their neighbors...

Bullshit, non-israelis are kicked out or harrassed in israel all the time. Espcially near the westbank.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yeah, except a) You get fair market compensation by the government when they exercise that right,

Don't bet the farm on that. "Fair market" is what the government tells you what it is. Someone I know in MD had hundreds of acres taken from them for pennies on the dollar. "fair market" wasn't what the owners could have sold it for.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Is being under Israeli control the same as having clear title to the land? Do you think it right to practice bombing on land you don't have clear title to regardless of who has responsibility there, and thus perhaps conveniently creating a safety issue that requires removal of people? I do not tell Arabs or Palestinians much of anything because I don't have any real contact with them. I merely suggest that Jews who do have contact tell them by how they treat them. I strive to treat all people alike in my life.

No one has clear title to the land.


There is no Palestinian state to be responsible for it.
Jordan which CONQUERED it lost it and does not ask for it back;
Israel which gained control of it from Jordan is the defacto steward until some other country obtains claim.

these people have known for 12+ years that the land was intended for other purposes. That waited around until the end and the end has come. Now everyone wants to feel sorry.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I want Israel to tear them down, when did you get confused on that position.

You want the Israeli's subjugated or exterminated. How dare those 6 million exist there.

 

[Dari]

They have known about this for 12 years.

The implementation was placed on hold due to appeals.

No civilized country allows people to live in a Active Fire zone.
The Palestinians moved into one after it was declared.
And they need to be removed for their safety.

Or do you want them to become martyrs when a live shell hits.
Kill the children for a political statement.
Many Palestinian militants think that is OK; I thought some here were above such.

They lived there the whole time. The government wanted to kick them out. Interestingly, illegal Jewish settlements also expanded into that same area (with the active fire zone) and the Israeli government does nothing to the Jews. Only the Arabs...

 

[JEDIYoda]

Bullshit, non-israelis are kicked out or harrassed in israel all the time. Espcially near the westbank.

whats your point??
Non - american citizens ---Hispanics are kicked out or harrassed all the time......

Thats Israels right to decide who lives in her country...or an I missing something...

 

[Lemon law]

IMHO, Haybasusa's main delusions are contined to his final Statement of " You and I and many others would see peace, but until that's wanted by the participants in question and a basis of trust is formed at the most basic level of "if you don't try to kill me I won't try to kill you" then we have what we see. If there are demons they aren't the people themselves, but those who would use them."

But that definition Haybasusa, peace settlements between human's would always be impossible. Israelis are not of a single mind and neither are Palestinians. Nor is temporary possession of something permanent. As Israel's only claim to the disputed territories is that they are the occupying military power. And its maybe unique in world history to have a military occupation last 44 years. IMHO, its long past time to demand Israel get out of are disputed territory and, if nothing else let the UN or a multinational force manage the disputed territories.

But in terms of making peace between two broad groups, it must be based on fairness, and is never possible when one group, namely the current Israeli government is stuck in lala land extremism. To make peace you need moderates, and Abbas is certainly far better than Netanyuhu, But I have always said, there are plenty of men and women in Israel who are moderates and able to negotiate in good faith, but just not quite enough to form a Israeli majority. As for Hamas, they are just the opposite side of the coin from Netanyuhu.

Or we could talk about our Uncle Sammies success in military occupations. In Vietnam we built big old military bases, bombed the crap out of it and surrounding countries, and what do we have to show for it today? Exactly nothing.

We can say the same about Iraq, except unlike Vietnam, the puppet government we formed told the USA to get the hell out and now, in less than 9 years, we are out with, yet again, nothing to show for it. We can talk about Afghanistan also, but by 2014 the USA is likely to be out, mission unaccomplished, botched, and with nothing to show for it.

Israel on the other hand was granted its 1948 borders by the UN, and still struggles to find acceptance from its surrounding nations. But Israel might find peace and acceptance with a Palestinian State. But the longer Israel refuses to get out disputed territories, the more enemies Israel makes, not only in the mid-east but internationally.
But maybe there is a plan B since pigs can't fly, and that is to push all Israeli Jews into the sea. A plan I certainly don't want, but if Israel does not straighten up its act, in the fullness of time and population advantages of Arabs who outnumber Israelis 50 to one, if likely to eventually happen.

Or we can look at the world, Vietnamese control has changed many times, the same can be said of Kuwait, Finland, Latvia, and Estonia. England, France, Spain, Portugal, and Germany, had many colonies all lost today. And now we are living in a post colonial world, and only Israel seems to think they are entitled.

 

[EagleKeeper]

They lived there the whole time. The government wanted to kick them out. Interestingly, illegal Jewish settlements also expanded into that same area (with the active fire zone) and the Israeli government does nothing to the Jews. Only the Arabs...

The Palestinians were advised 12 years ago that this would happen.

The government makes it choices.

What the status is of the three outputs who knows.
If there was anything available; they may not chose to report it.

 

[cybrsage]

Yeah, except a) You get fair market compensation by the government when they exercise that right,

Not always. It is not a requirement to get fair market compensation. If you refuse their offer, they take the land and you get nothing.

b) Palestinians aren't Israelis, the analogy doesn't work here, and c) Israel is using that "right" to cause further suffering to the Palestinians.

Their nation of origin is irrelevant to the issue. Who controls the land is what is relevant.

A better analogy would be if Mexico was being punished under Apartheid rule from the US and the US constantly stole Mexico's land in order to cause more suffering to them.

You have just shown you are simply a liberal talking point repeating machine. You have no clue what apartheid is.

Closing down an elementary school? You Israeli apologists have no depths that you will sink to.

You would rather the school be in operation while a live fire exercise is happening? Only a monster would want that.

 

[cybrsage]

They lived there the whole time. The government wanted to kick them out. Interestingly, illegal Jewish settlements also expanded into that same area (with the active fire zone) and the Israeli government does nothing to the Jews. Only the Arabs...

Links please.

 

[cybrsage]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I want Israel to tear them down, when did you get confused on that position.

Then why are you complaining about Israel saying they are going to tear down these illegal settelements?

 

[Dari]

The Palestinians were advised 12 years ago that this would happen.

The government makes it choices.

What the status is of the three outputs who knows.
If there was anything available; they may not chose to report it.

You keep missing the point. They LIVED there. The government told them this was going to happen. They SUED. The government kept postponing its response (or something). Then the government finally decided to do things the hard way. It is most likely violating court orders by confiscating vehicles and demolishing property in order to forcibly remove these people. In the meantime, Jewish settlers are allowed to move near the firing zone and do as they please without incurring the same response.

 

[kylebisme]

Links please.

It's in the OP.

 

[Dari]

Links please.

It's in the article:

Dror Etkes, who has monitored West Bank settlement activity for years, told Haaretz that three settlement outposts had recently expanded into the live-fire zone: Avigail, Mitzpeh Yair and Havat Ma'on. "But as far as I know, there are no restrictions on their movement in the area, and none of their vehicles have been confiscated," he said. "I also don't know of any active army exercise area within this live-fire zone. In most of it, there never were any exercises."

Funny how the Israeli government is kicking out the Arabs (for their own safety, of course) but the Jewish settlements are allowed to move in unhindered. I am being impartial by assuming that they are illegal. If they are legal settlement that are allowed to expand into this area then it reeks of extreme bias and refutes what you and other defenders here are saying...

 

[EagleKeeper]

IMHO, Haybasusa's main delusions are contined to his final Statement of " You and I and many others would see peace, but until that's wanted by the participants in question and a basis of trust is formed at the most basic level of "if you don't try to kill me I won't try to kill you" then we have what we see. If there are demons they aren't the people themselves, but those who would use them."

But that definition Haybasusa, peace settlements between human's would always be impossible. Israelis are not of a single mind and neither are Palestinians. Nor is temporary possession of something permanent. As Israel's only claim to the disputed territories is that they are the occupying military power. And its maybe unique in world history to have a military occupation last 44 years. IMHO, its long past time to demand Israel get out of are disputed territory and, if nothing else let the UN or a multinational force manage the disputed territories.

But in terms of making peace between two broad groups, it must be based on fairness, and is never possible when one group, namely the current Israeli government is stuck in lala land extremism. To make peace you need moderates, and Abbas is certainly far better than Netanyuhu, But I have always said, there are plenty of men and women in Israel who are moderates and able to negotiate in good faith, but just not quite enough to form a Israeli majority. As for Hamas, they are just the opposite side of the coin from Netanyuhu.

Or we could talk about our Uncle Sammies success in military occupations. In Vietnam we built big old military bases, bombed the crap out of it and surrounding countries, and what do we have to show for it today? Exactly nothing.

We can say the same about Iraq, except unlike Vietnam, the puppet government we formed told the USA to get the hell out and now, in less than 9 years, we are out with, yet again, nothing to show for it. We can talk about Afghanistan also, but by 2014 the USA is likely to be out, mission unaccomplished, botched, and with nothing to show for it.

Israel on the other hand was granted its 1948 borders by the UN, and still struggles to find acceptance from its surrounding nations. But Israel might find peace and acceptance with a Palestinian State. But the longer Israel refuses to get out disputed territories, the more enemies Israel makes, not only in the mid-east but internationally.
But maybe there is a plan B since pigs can't fly, and that is to push all Israeli Jews into the sea. A plan I certainly don't want, but if Israel does not straighten up its act, in the fullness of time and population advantages of Arabs who outnumber Israelis 50 to one, if likely to eventually happen.

Or we can look at the world, Vietnamese control has changed many times, the same can be said of Kuwait, Finland, Latvia, and Estonia. England, France, Spain, Portugal, and Germany, had many colonies all lost today. And now we are living in a post colonial world, and only Israel seems to think they are entitled.

You keep forgetting that Abbas does not have the authority to speak for the Palestinians.

Anything he signs with Israel is not going to fly with Hamas.
And Hamas at this point is the elected government of the Palestinians

Has anyone asked the UN if they want the headache.

They can not even handle Gaza or Lebanon until Israel cleaned out the rats. And the UN is still in bed with Hezbollah.

You trust them to act as an impartial body.

Israel was granted it's borders i '48; completely ignored by the Arabs & Palestinians. So let the Arabs & Palestinians experience tit for tat; the borders are being ignored by Israel.
The UN did not do anything the first time around; or the second or the third time those borders were violated by the Arabs.

As soon as the Palestinians agree to peace and security for Israel; then the UN can roll in and setup a buffer zone.

 

[cybrsage]

It's in the OP.

Quote it please, I cannot find it in the link.

EDIT: Are you talking about the three settlements without confiscation yet? That is because they need to take them to court first. The current confiscations are from the ones already taken to court 12 years ago. Newly expanded settlements will be taken to court once this one is finished...only a fool would take new settlements to court while the first one is still being played out.

Since Israel already removes illegal Jewish settlements you can rest assured they will do it here as well.

 

[Oyeve]

whats your point??
Non - american citizens ---Hispanics are kicked out or harrassed all the time......

Thats Israels right to decide who lives in her country...or an I missing something...

My point is that israelis are assholes like everyone else and should not be treated special, as in other countries, especially the us, spouting to leave them be when in reality the world is pretty much sick of them and their bullshit. And when I say kicked out and harrased I meant tourists, not non-nationals.