Ideas on education reform?

[cKGunslinger]

With my daughter just finishing up another school year, I've once again begun to think about our American school systems and how little they've changed over the years and what kind of things should we consider improving upon.

What about this whole 9-month on, 3-month off calendar? I'm not sure of its origins, but I'd be willing to bet it was agriculture-related. I know I was always "burned-out" at the end of spring, waiting for my 3-month vacation, during which, I typically forgot a good third of what I learned during the school year. What about a year-round school calendar, with frequent breaks, much like a quarter system at some universities? Do any other countries hae a similar system with good results?

What about you guys? I know some of you are probably recently out of school, so you may be a little closer to the subject. (You don't have to admit such, if you don't prefer.)

What kind of specific changes would you like to see in American Education? School uniforms? Shorter/longer hours per day? More/less than 13-years required? More/less level-based seggregation? Better teachers? Better parents? More/less testing and evaluation?

 

[shrumpage]

parental involment.

less tv at home.

no "zero tolerance" polcies - give administrators the ability to handle situations as they see fit.

a required personal finance class for highschoolers.

 

[kogase]

Year round school with frequent breaks is a must in my opinion. More rigorous courses. No more pandering to the lowest common denominator. Kids who fail can take a basic level competency course in order to pass highschool, but kids who don't won't have to sit through mind numbing tripe just so the parents of the stupid kids can feel good.

 

[Czar]

Iceland has the same 3 month brake system, kinda like it since during the summer time kids can work or go to seminars, or other activities. Another plus is that when families go on vacation they have a 3 month peroid to take their vacation, with 1 month summer brake it means that families will be forced to take their vacation around the same time, putting a strain on other parts of the economy.

Denmark on the other hand has a different system, 6 weeks vacation during the summer and then a long winter and easter brakes, and some more. In many ways it is a better system, but for kids who need to work they usualy have to work with school. But denmark solves this differently as to pay students to go to school.

Both systems work fine I think.

For all systems, iceland, denmark and the US I think they could do with alot more after school activities.


edt.
and to show how important the 3 months were to me before I got old enough to actually realise time, I thought that the summer brake was half of the year, was so sad to find out it was only 3 months

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

many districts have year round schooling.

School reform is a huge topic... there are many books written on how to implement different types of reform efforts every month.

 

[Genx87]

Not really sure but what I remembered the most out of hgihschool was an economic\math class I took. I was a Junior and it really sold me on early investment.

My ignorant belief is they should teach the basics up through 8th grade and then work more on life skills in the last 4 years. Maybe even get some of these kids into our college system as early as 15 years old and let them take general eds.

The system is basically redundant and doesnt model anything you find in the real world.
One thing about College I noticed compared to Highschool is the difference in approach to learning and the goals associated.

While 80% of the stuff I learned in College is now useless to me it did indoctrinate me into a way of thinking and approaching issues. Something that lacks in the K-12 programs around this country.

I have heard Europe does basics until 8-9th grade then lets you do internships and apprenticeships(sp) until you graduate.

To me that seems more useful down the road than sitting in the same history class for 12 years listening to a teacher yap and dreaming about getting out of class early.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
With my daughter just finishing up another school year, I've once again begun to think about our American school systems and how little they've changed over the years and what kind of things should we consider improving upon.

What about this whole 9-month on, 3-month off calendar? I'm not sure of its origins, but I'd be willing to bet it was agriculture-related. I know I was always "burned-out" at the end of spring, waiting for my 3-month vacation, during which, I typically forgot a good third of what I learned during the school year. What about a year-round school calendar, with frequent breaks, much like a quarter system at some universities? Do any other countries hae a similar system with good results?

What about you guys? I know some of you are probably recently out of school, so you may be a little closer to the subject. (You don't have to admit such, if you don't prefer.)

What kind of specific changes would you like to see in American Education? School uniforms? Shorter/longer hours per day? More/less than 13-years required? More/less level-based seggregation? Better teachers? Better parents? More/less testing and evaluation?

All the small towns around here have very little christmas vacation, storm days, etc and start earlier then the bigger towns so that their kids can be out of school in time to help plant, etc. I don't see how they could go full time year around without creating an undue hardship for their famalies. Planting time just can't be scheduled, all you can do is get your crops in as fast as you can. If you don't, you'll be out of business very soon.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: shrumpage
parental involment.

less tv at home.

no "zero tolerance" polcies - give administrators the ability to handle situations as they see fit.

a required personal finance class for highschoolers.

Parental involvement is a great idea, but I'm not sure how you'd be able to "force" people to be good parents. Maybe set goals for parental involvement at the beginning of the school year and base a portion of the student's grade on that involvement?

You can't really regulate "less TV" at the educational level.

i agree that "zero tolerance" policies probably do more harm than good, but the flip side of that is that you need to make sure you have competent and logical school administrators if you are going to leave things to their discretion.

Yes, more personal finance education would be a great idea. I place a small part of blame for my financial situation of the fact that "honor students" in my high school did not have to take the basic finances course offered. It's obviously no excuse now, but it sure would have been handier to me starting out in life than advanced trigonometry.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: shrumpage
parental involment.

less tv at home.

no "zero tolerance" polcies - give administrators the ability to handle situations as they see fit.

a required personal finance class for highschoolers.

Good luck with the parental involvement. Here in Tennessee we have a problem with kids entering kindergarten that can't count to ten or know any of thier colors. The solution is to spend lots of taxpayer money for pre-k schools. That way parents won't have to spend any time with thier kids at all. They can now ship them off to school at 4 years of age.

And those are all good points, but I would like to add a couple of items. One, stop dumbing down the classes. Secondly, let schools hand out F's again. Sure there is parental involvement now, but only when lazy johnny is too stupid to pass basic math and gets an F so the parents complain. So they raise the grade to a C after the parents bitch and all is good with the world.

 

[zendari]

Being a year out of high school this is what I say:

Limited federal involvement
Year round schooling
Removal of foreign language requirement
Mandatory 5 days of physical education/health in the winter
In the later years, lack of attendance requirement
Mandatory personal finance class
Stricter standards. Hold kids back if necessary.
More classes concerning the world around them today, ie current events. I see too many people who are "book smart" but don't have a clue about the real world. My younger sister is in the top 5 GPA wise in her class but doesn't know who the Vice President is. :roll:

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: kogase
Year round school with frequent breaks is a must in my opinion. More rigorous courses. No more pandering to the lowest common denominator. Kids who fail can take a basic level competency course in order to pass highschool, but kids who don't won't have to sit through mind numbing tripe just so the parents of the stupid kids can feel good.

Yeah, I personally think that we need more of a branching structure in the system. The idea of failing students being forced to simply repeat the exact same courses again is rediculous. Isn't that the definition of insanity - doing the same thing twice and expecting different results?

I put a lot of the blame on the whole "Don't make my child feel like a dummy" mentality a lot of parent and educators have. Of course we don't want to tell kids they are stupid, but we need to recognize that many kids learn at different rates and via different methods and need to cater a bit more to those needs. If that means separating students into different class settings, so be it.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
With my daughter just finishing up another school year, I've once again begun to think about our American school systems and how little they've changed over the years and what kind of things should we consider improving upon.

What about this whole 9-month on, 3-month off calendar? I'm not sure of its origins, but I'd be willing to bet it was agriculture-related. I know I was always "burned-out" at the end of spring, waiting for my 3-month vacation, during which, I typically forgot a good third of what I learned during the school year. What about a year-round school calendar, with frequent breaks, much like a quarter system at some universities? Do any other countries hae a similar system with good results?

What about you guys? I know some of you are probably recently out of school, so you may be a little closer to the subject. (You don't have to admit such, if you don't prefer.)

What kind of specific changes would you like to see in American Education? School uniforms? Shorter/longer hours per day? More/less than 13-years required? More/less level-based seggregation? Better teachers? Better parents? More/less testing and evaluation?

All the small towns around here have very little christmas vacation, storm days, etc and start earlier then the bigger towns so that their kids can be out of school in time to help plant, etc. I don't see how they could go full time year around without creating an undue hardship for their famalies. Planting time just can't be scheduled, all you can do is get your crops in as fast as you can. If you don't, you'll be out of business very soon.

Is that still the case? I know there are many areas that are still heavily agricultural, but are the 5-13 year old children so very critical to the business? Maybe a year-round system for elementary school, and longer summer breaks for high-schoolers? Those that don't participate in the family planting can have choices of voluntary summer school for advanced studies or internships, etc?

 

[dmcowen674]

What's with all this education reform talk crap?

I thought NCLB fixed everything and education is perfect now?

 

[Mr Duck]

How about completely ending state run education? All education should be privately ran and than there could be compitition for the schools themselves to do the best job so that they reap the benefits of freedom and capitalism. The state can still set the same "high" standards that they have today( it surprises me when I see someone around eighteen or nineteen and how much trouble they have reading a newspaper). Each parent would be responseable for their own children and their education while people without children do not have to pay for others. Education could for instance, could maybe become a benefit that a job offers an employee kind of like a health package or 401. In my opinion I think it is obvious that our schools are lacking in quality, but I also believe that the state is inept in its own institution and its answer of dumping more tax dollars into it is insane. The dollars do not go to the students but pay off too many people and school boards before it makes it to the students.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
What's with all this education reform talk crap?

I thought NCLB fixed everything and education is perfect now?

Anyway, do any of you guys have any personal experience with non-standard school policies? Communitees that have implemented large reform with good results?

If I had the money, I think I'd start a small charter school with some very non-standard techniques. Over the course of a few years, you'd be able to see what works and what doesn't and be able to evolve the structure. I think that's one of the biggest problems with most public schools - they are "stuck" in their current mode and refuse to adapt and experiment.

Of course, most can't afford to experiement, because of the possibility of failure, which means problems from the federal level. No, it's much too vital to simply make sure kids can pass that standardized test that means the school is working correctly and can continue to receive funding. :roll:

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
What kind of specific changes would you like to see in American Education? School uniforms? Shorter/longer hours per day? More/less than 13-years required? More/less level-based seggregation? Better teachers? Better parents? More/less testing and evaluation?

School uniforms with no symbols. There is too much "social" in American school. You hav e a bizarre class system with jocks, nerds, etc that don't exist in other countries (maybe Canada)... Not to mention gang problems. School uniforms could help with this and take away from the distractions.

More discipline. No talking in class unless called upon. Again, this relates to the social environment. Kids cna socialize outside of class. There should be no distractions.

Full year around but with a couple month long vacations. No reason to have the whole summer off now that we aren't on farms.

Same amount of time required, but pack more in. Other countries are usually ahead by one year compared to us at the same age. Kids can handle a bit more homework.

Pay enough so that you have good teachers.

Less money on fancy computers, sports equipment. Spend money on basic facilities (paint, etc) and books. Teach the basics, you don't really need a rocket to teach physics.

Do not pass people that don't make the grade. The real outliers should be tested for mental deficiencies. Have some remedial class for those with serious problems that will shoot for making them basica functioning citizens (reading, writing).

Don't segregate levels until high school except as mentioned above. However, don't slow down for anyone. Add extra classes for slowpolks if necessary. In high school, you can have varying levels.

More traditional logic courses. Every high schooler should be able to spot logical fallacies and identify them by name.

None of these should be federally mandated however logic.

(Yes I know there are typos and I am writing about education.)

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Mr Duck
How about completely ending state run education? All education should be privately ran and than there could be compitition for the schools themselves to do the best job so that they reap the benefits of freedom and capitalism. The state can still set the same "high" standards that they have today( it surprises me when I see someone around eighteen or nineteen and how much trouble they have reading a newspaper). Each parent would be responseable for their own children and their education while people without children do not have to pay for others. Education could for instance, could maybe become a benefit that a job offers an employee kind of like a health package or 401. In my opinion I think it is obvious that our schools are lacking in quality, but I also believe that the state is inept in its own institution and its answer of dumping more tax dollars into it is insane. The dollars do not go to the students but pay off too many people and school boards before it makes it to the students.

School privatization is something to consider. The capitalist and libertarian in me wants to think that this is a good idea, but the parent and realist in me has too many reservations.

First, I'm not even sure what kind of profits could be made with a private institution on a large scale. Sure it seems to work on a small scale, but in those instances, many schools get to be selective about which studetns are allowed to attend. How would this scale to allow *all" children to attend school?

Second, an educated workforce is a benefit to *all" members of society, so the idea of "I don't want my taxes to pay for your kids" is not a strong argument. You take expand upon that such that "I don't want my children paying for your retirement," or "I don't want my taxes paying for your roads," etc. It utimately becomes, "I don't want to pay any taxes that don't benefit me directly." If that's the case, what's the point of paying taxes or of the Federal Government at all? No, I'm all for a smaller government, but I do see the benefit of "having" a government and of paying taxes for the good of society as a whole.

Third, I'm still not convinced the profit motivation will be best for the students. I love capitalism and the free-market, but I recognize that there are often both winners and losers in that system, and wouldn't want to take the chance of the students ever being the losers. It's too imporant to the nation as a whole.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
With my daughter just finishing up another school year, I've once again begun to think about our American school systems and how little they've changed over the years and what kind of things should we consider improving upon.

What about this whole 9-month on, 3-month off calendar? I'm not sure of its origins, but I'd be willing to bet it was agriculture-related. I know I was always "burned-out" at the end of spring, waiting for my 3-month vacation, during which, I typically forgot a good third of what I learned during the school year. What about a year-round school calendar, with frequent breaks, much like a quarter system at some universities? Do any other countries hae a similar system with good results?

What about you guys? I know some of you are probably recently out of school, so you may be a little closer to the subject. (You don't have to admit such, if you don't prefer.)

What kind of specific changes would you like to see in American Education? School uniforms? Shorter/longer hours per day? More/less than 13-years required? More/less level-based seggregation? Better teachers? Better parents? More/less testing and evaluation?

All the small towns around here have very little christmas vacation, storm days, etc and start earlier then the bigger towns so that their kids can be out of school in time to help plant, etc. I don't see how they could go full time year around without creating an undue hardship for their famalies. Planting time just can't be scheduled, all you can do is get your crops in as fast as you can. If you don't, you'll be out of business very soon.

Is that still the case? I know there are many areas that are still heavily agricultural, but are the 5-13 year old children so very critical to the business? Maybe a year-round system for elementary school, and longer summer breaks for high-schoolers? Those that don't participate in the family planting can have choices of voluntary summer school for advanced studies or internships, etc?

On the average family farm, everyone has chores to do. When it is planting time, the workload doubles and everyone has to pitch in and do their part. I'd say that most farm kids 8 or older contribute in a significant way, even if it's just helping to watch the younger children.

It has changed though. When I was 8, I was putting in 15 hour days (and longer) driving a tractor. The equipment of today is so much larger and more complex that kids aren't trusted with it until they are around 12, give or take a little.

There is such a difference in different farms that it's next to impossible to just set an age at which kids are needed for the farming operation. I think the only vialble option to increase the length of school in rural areas would be to have school half the time.

Another problem with year long schooling is when do the kids who work summers to save up for college get a chance to do that?

 

[Amplifier]

As long as the teachers union exists very little will change.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

On the average family farm, everyone has chores to do. When it is planting time, the workload doubles and everyone has to pitch in and do their part. I'd say that most farm kids 8 or older contribute in a significant way, even if it's just helping to watch the younger children.

It has changed though. When I was 8, I was putting in 15 hour days (and longer) driving a tractor. The equipment of today is so much larger and more complex that kids aren't trusted with it until they are around 12, give or take a little.

There is such a difference in different farms that it's next to impossible to just set an age at which kids are needed for the farming operation. I think the only vialble option to increase the length of school in rural areas would be to have school half the time.

Another problem with year long schooling is when do the kids who work summers to save up for college get a chance to do that?

Hmm.. I don't know the answer then. I though most of American was past this point, with modern agriculture methods and the relative abundance of cheap labor. Yeah, I always helped my dad during the summer, but I was typically paid a small sum, and I was never so vital that our family would starve/be poor without my help.

And as for saving money for college, if these kids are too busy working on the family farm to go to school, how would they have time to have a job?

When I was in high school, I only went until 1:00pm duing my senior year, so that I could work part-time after school. I assume something like this would still exist in a year-round system. Maybe even something more substantial, like a 3-day school week, where the other 2 days were spent interning or co-oping?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Amplifier
As long as the teachers union exists very little will change.

I'm not so sure it should change. Anybody who thinks you don't learn just because you aren't "in school" doesn't have a real firm grip on reality IMO. Let the people who want to send there kids to a summer school. Nobody is stopping them. It just doesn't work for everbody.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Amplifier
As long as the teachers union exists very little will change.

Yeah, let's pay teachers the same as waiters and see what happens.

 

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Amplifier
As long as the teachers union exists very little will change.

I'm not so sure it should change. Anybody who thinks you don't learn just because you aren't "in school" doesn't have a real firm grip on reality IMO. Let the people who want to send there kids to a summer school. Nobody is stopping them. It just doesn't work for everbody.

Don't read too much into what I said. I wasn't making a stance one way or the other.

I did imply that the teachers union is very resistant to any change though.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

On the average family farm, everyone has chores to do. When it is planting time, the workload doubles and everyone has to pitch in and do their part. I'd say that most farm kids 8 or older contribute in a significant way, even if it's just helping to watch the younger children.

It has changed though. When I was 8, I was putting in 15 hour days (and longer) driving a tractor. The equipment of today is so much larger and more complex that kids aren't trusted with it until they are around 12, give or take a little.

There is such a difference in different farms that it's next to impossible to just set an age at which kids are needed for the farming operation. I think the only vialble option to increase the length of school in rural areas would be to have school half the time.

Another problem with year long schooling is when do the kids who work summers to save up for college get a chance to do that?

Hmm.. I don't know the answer then. I though most of American was past this point, with modern agriculture methods and the relative abundance of cheap labor. Yeah, I always helped my dad during the summer, but I was typically paid a small sum, and I was never so vital that our family would starve/be poor without my help.

I think most farms could manage around it most of the time, but i know many farmers who need that help at planting time. Everybody in the area needs help at the exact same time and we just don't have the people in the area to hire, especially qualified people for a 3 week job.

And as for saving money for college, if these kids are too busy working on the family farm to go to school, how would they have time to have a job?

I was thinking of town kids who get full time summer jobs

When I was in high school, I only went until 1:00pm duing my senior year, so that I could work part-time after school. I assume something like this would still exist in a year-round system. Maybe even something more substantial, like a 3-day school week, where the other 2 days were spent interning or co-oping?

In farming, you need to make hay when the sun shines.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Personally, there needs to be more emphasis on math and science. The average person on the street doesn't know the basics of chemistry, physics and biology. Plus, the numbers of Americans enrolled in Engineering and Science has been dropping steadily. America will experience a brain drain of proportions similar to other countries in the past unless we can start training our own in these areas.

Also, there honestly needs to be less emphasis on business/finanical careers. Kids are so damned enamoured with money that it forces them into fairly "useless" careers (what does an investment banker give to society compared to a doctor?). Most of the kids I knew in high school are now business types. And this was from the advanced/honors classes in a school that emphasized the sciences. Money comes with any higher-up job, and good money at that.