"IDE and SCSI : RAID Shootout" - still true?

[ValuedCustomer]

This is an old article (Aug 2001) and I was wondering if it even applies these days. I'm considering going w/ a SCSI Raid setup and wondered if the knoweverything-types around here had any advice as to whether or not I'd just be wasting my $$.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

/re-engaging lurking device

 

[AdamRader]

Can't really say wether or not SCSI is worth it without knowing what you plan to do with the system. For most home/gaming/non-server types of applications, SCSI is merely a nice and expensive toy, vs. being truly noticeable and worthwhile... considering the cost.

If you're interested in gaming, for example, SCSI won't be worth it. If you're interested in running the drives to power a SQL database, they'd be worth it (and even then only if you're talking about some serious disk activity.)

Tell us more about your intentions and we can be more detailed and specific as to what might best suit your needs.

 

[ValuedCustomer]

I plan on using the system for gaming, low level video/music editing and the regular ole MS Office type stuff. The cost isn't really an issue; I've got about $1800 to spend on the box and I already have my DVD/CD burner and DVD/CD drives. I'm not gonna lie to ya, braggin' rights is a factor w/ this build.

what I'm lookin' at so far:
Adaptec 2100S SCSI
Hitachi/IBM 36GB 15,000RPM SCSI Hard Drive (x2)
VIKING 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 (x3)
ASUS "K8V SE Deluxe" K8T800
AMD Athlon 64 3000+
Albatron nVIDIA GeForce FX5700, 256MB DDR
ENERMAX Mid Tower Case With 400W PSU

$1350 at NewEgg (before tax)


It's overkill I know but I've always wanted to build something like this and I finally got the chance. Should I, or shouldn't I?

 

[AdamRader]

I personally wouldn't go that far overboard, but then again, i'm poor, sooooo.... =)

In all seriousness, for what you plan on doing, SCSI isn't going to help performance much, if any.. and almost certainly won't do so the the level that you would likely notice. With that kind of budget, you might be better of snagging a couple (or more) 74 GB Raptors. The cost/GB ratio is lower than SCSI, and you get the bragging rights of SATA instead of that 'ancient' stuff the old people call 'scuzzy.' =)

Check out http://storagereview.com/comparison.html too if you're interested in the performance aspect of your drive choice vs. some other options.

 

[AdamRader]

Another note... IDE RAID, specifically RAID 0, has been shown, proven, and hammered into the ground as being a waste... SCSI on the other handseems to have the RAID world locked down, at least in the enterprise. Not sure how well a RAID 0 setup would work using SCSI on a desktop/gaming rig.

 

[ValuedCustomer]

Thanks very much. - prolly some sound advice considering just the SCSI adapter alone retails for $275.. I still might do it though

 

[robcy]

If you want braggin'rights get a A64 3400+ or a FX-53 and get a 6800Ultra/GT. No one has said to me, "hey look at the awsome Raid array I have on my low level gaming PC". You would be better served by a better Video card, and CPU. And I seriously doubt that you would notice the difference between say 2 SATA Raptors 76gb (10K rpm) on Raid 0, and the Hitachi/IBM you are looking at. Oh, the Raptors are twice as big. $1,800 is a great budget to have (read: envy)

 

[dowxp]

not really sure what to say, since the cost of scsi raid array is insanely expensive. I run a fuji MAS and in my experience, i have never experienced 'hard drive' lag. But its all relative, to say the least, even though i only run a 1.92 p4 NW, i'm able to keep up load times with my friends 2.25? barton. i really can't remember his overclock though. oh well.

and it is only noticeable during load times, opening of programs. if you surf the net and open mp3's, then obviously you don't need it.

 

[dowxp]

erg, to answer the OP's question, a scsi raid array will surely rape anything provided you have a decent cpu. it will be light and day. it may or may not be loud depending on what hard drives you get.

 

[*kjm]

Now this would be bragging rights!!!!!

Iwill DK8N Dual AMD Opteron MB

 

[Lebeau]

there was a few post on here already on bench mark

that end user bench clearly shows basic scsi power

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=1360661

 

[Zepper]

For reliability and flexibility, SCSI still leads by a wide margin and some type of serial SCSI is in the wings...
.bh.

 

[Lonyo]

To be honest, 512MB RAM for video editing isn't much, nor is it braggable, and a 5700U definately isn't brag worthy.

Get rid of that SCSI crap And get yourself 1GB RAM and a 6800NU or 9800Pro (depending on if you want to spend $300 or $200)
SCSI isn't going to be worth it for gaming or editing combined with 512MB RAM and a 5700U.

(Obviously pick up some cheap SATA or PATA IDE drives instead of the SCSI as well)

 

[Lebeau]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
To be honest, 512MB RAM for video editing isn't much, nor is it braggable, and a 5700U definately isn't brag worthy.

Get rid of that SCSI crap And get yourself 1GB RAM and a 6800NU or 9800Pro (depending on if you want to spend $300 or $200)
SCSI isn't going to be worth it for gaming or editing combined with 512MB RAM and a 5700U.

totally.. scsi is good for servers with multi user request.. for home users, its just bragging rights

 

[*kjm]

He did say 512 X 3.

 

[Markfw]

One serious deficieny with that system in using a SCSI raid array; bandwidth ! That why I wen from a Athlon3000+ and a K8v to a Tyan Thunder dual Opteron board, not for the dual cpu's (even though I have alwways wanted a dually), but for a 64bit PCI-X 133 mhz slot ! My transfers went from 60k to 195k on the same card and SCSI drives ! I love SCSI, but if you don't do it right, you are wasting your money. I hate to say it, but with your budget, a single 15k MAS SCSI drive is about all you could fit in your budget. They will leave the Raptor in the dust, and but you will pay ! $519 for the 73 gig MAS drive, and you will need a controller. You can get a decent U160 controller (your stuck to 133 mps bandwith anyway) for $32.

And to the comment that for a single user, its bragging rights, NO, it does make a difference. A single 15k 3.6 ms access Fujitsu MAS drive will murder a Raptor. However, a 6800GT and 1-2 gig of memory will suit a gamer much better. If both fit in the budget, great, otherwise I agree that the 6800GT is probablt a better use for the money.

And one more plus for SCSI, they live almost forever, and have a 5 year warranty.

 

[Markfw]

Nobody willing to debate me ?

 

[ValuedCustomer]

No debate from me.. 'too busy takin' notes. -- I'm glad I didn't knee-jerk -- Everyone's given me a lot of great input to think about.

at this point:
* I'll take the upgrade vid-card advice (any realistic ($200 or under) advice
* definitely considering Raptors as an alternative
* sticking w/ my original THREE sticks of 512 RAM

developing..

 

[*kjm]

Not me. I was saying the same thing as you I just didn?t have the time to make my point so clear

 

[Markfw]

Where is shuttleteam, I mean sharkeeper ? SCSI rules, one or many !!

 

[MichaelD]

School is in session. *bell rings*


SCSI is not for the non believer, nor faint of wallet. SCSI ain't cheap. But then, was the prettiest girl you ever dated cheap? Nope. You went broke making her giggle, but oh.....oh....was it WORTH IT!!

Of course it was.


OK, that's ball-clutching-basics of it. But there's a lot more.

Up until recently, only SCSI drives had a 5-year warranty; Seagate recently changed that by offering 5-year warranties on their IDE drives. This is very different than ALL other IDE drive manufacturers. 5 years is "unheard of" AFA warranties go on IDE drives.

Until now, such warranties were only the norm on SCSI drives. What does that tell you about SCSI drives? Right. They are built w/premium parts. Do they fail? Of course. Anything mechanical will fail eventually; but SCSI drives are built to much higher specifications that IDE drives are. Better parts=longer life=less warranty claims. It's a win-win situation, both for the customer and the manufacturer.

Then there's also the SCSI-stronghold; Command Queing. This lets the SCSI controller prioritize I/O requests resulting in smooth, freeze-free performance. I.E. I can run a SAV scan on my array while surfing the net, while ripping a CD while emailing; all with little or no slowdown in performance.

There's a reason why Enterprise-level (not the "Star Ship" BTW....) servers use SCSI drives. You guys figure it out.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer
No debate from me.. 'too busy takin' notes. -- I'm glad I didn't knee-jerk -- Everyone's given me a lot of great input to think about.

at this point:
* I'll take the upgrade vid-card advice (any realistic ($200 or under) advice
* definitely considering Raptors as an alternative
* sticking w/ my original THREE sticks of 512 RAM

developing..

Don't get 3 sticks of ram. Get 2x1024 or even 1x1024 now and more later. A64's have (or had when I built) this quirk where if you use 3 sticks of double sided ram they run at like half speed or something. I had 3x512 of some decent pc3200 ram in my A64-3200 rig using a shuttle NF3-150 board and I could only get them to run @ pc1600 speeds. With one or two sticks, it's not an issue.

However, if you're talking $1800, why don't you go socket 939 or 940 and go w/ some higher end CPU's? or, get a real video card? You're talking $200 as being "realistic" yet you were willing to drop $500+ on a SCSI set up? Pick up a minimum of a Radeon 9800pro, preferably something of the new gen vid cards (x800 or 6800's)