I'd like you all to have a look at this

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
-snip-
We need to follow that big rule of debating: attack the idea not the person.

:thumbsup:

Fern

What a stupid idea.

indeed .. it is currently out-of-synch with the atmosphere of P&N and although it might be an alien concept, it has worked well through-out all of nature for encounters - including who eats who

Be that as it may, my point was that attacking an idea can be done as absurdly as attacking a person. A rational argument should, I think, come with some kind of support.

isn't that what i said?



fangs and claws are "good enough" as support for an argument - in nature with 'animals' - often one runs with the other following to make its 'points'

the rationality in each encounter is predetermined in each case by circumstances that largely dictate the responses of the possible interaction and also results of the encounter, if there is one.

 

[Braznor]

Sticking to facts and not cussing too much should be good enough.

 

[Deudalus]

This is in short why this forum is not intelligent or knowledgeable. This is a certain mod on the boards and this is his intelligent and knowledgeable posts:

"The one lesson we should take from the Bushwhackos is, if you don't want the kind of damage that happens when you put liars in charge of the nation, don't elect known liars."

"For the good of the the party, hell! How about, for the good of the NATION? The lesson from destruction the Bushwhackos have done has to tell you, just say NO MORE KNOWN LIARS!"

"Feeble ones, too. AtHillary the Hun is the one who should take the hike."

"Turds have more common sense than Michelle Malkin. She's one of the dumbest anal right wing mouthpieces on the planet to the point of making a strong case to promote retroactive birth control.

Citing anything she says as a reason for doing anything, anytime, anywhere, loses the argument before it starts."

"He's also a traitor, a murderer, a torturer a liar, and an ebarrassment to the United States of America.
If you mean you support torture, such world scale stupidity is the reason your Torturer In Chief and his gang are war criminals. I hope they all are tried and convicted for their crimes and given lifetime vacations at the beautiful downtown Guantanamo Hilton with free daily passes for the exciting waterboard ride."

"Good thinking. Let's blow away more human beings to satisfy your blood lust, instead of dealing with it in an intelligent, reasonable way. Your Traitor In Chief would be proud."

"Why do you give a sh8?

And he's YOUR President. I was smart enough not to vote for him, and I don't accept brain dead murderers, traitors and torturers like George W. Bush as MY President."

I'm posting this just as an example of the pathetic crap we have to deal with to get to actual discussion. If he were the only one then it wouldn't be an issue, but the rest of the peanut gallery continually spams threads with this same BS throughout the day. The fact the this guy is a "senior mod" should tell you something.

As an aside through I'm really not making this post ot bash him, I'm making this post because you guys asked me for example of why this isn't a "knowledgeable and intelligent forum" and how it could be better.

Well, as a start if you aren't going to stop people from making blatant trolling posts then you shouldn't stop people from making blatantly trolling threads.


As an example why don't one of you make a thread dealing with a controversial issue like Iraq, the geneva convention, or torturing people. Make a well written post filling with with your opinions backed up with intelligent insight and such and see how long it takes this "senior mod" and the rest of the peanut gallery to fill 90% of the thread with one sentence or even short phrase replies filled with annoying catch phrases and retarded slogans.

If you truly want a knowledgeable and intelligent forum then you need to start with the mods making troll and flame bait posts and then continue with the other members as well.


I don't care if someone wants to argue that the sky is green and grass is blue as long as they can back it up. Its when a moderator and many members entire purpose here is apparently to post "OMG TRAITOR IN CHIEF LOLZ" that things get seriously retarded.

 

[1EZduzit]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've had my view changed by disscussion here and it's probably even fewer times that anything I've posted has caused someone else to change their mind.

I think the main function of a forum like this is to see exactly what other viewpoints are out there. As such as long as someone doesn't go over the top with personal insults, I let everything else just slide off my back like water on a duck.

Edit: grammer - spelling

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I can count on one had the number of times I've had my view changed by disscussion here and it's probably even fewer time anything I've posted has caused someone else to change their mind.

I think the main function of a forum like this is to see exactly what viewpoints are out there. As such as long as someone doesn't go over the top with personal insults, I let everything else will just slide off my back like water on a duck.

I 100% agree and its common sense that tells you that anyone who is active enough in politics to come to a board like this probably already has very strong opinions on issues and isn't likely to change on any of them.

At the very least this board won't change their views, things in their lives will change their views.

That said, I just wish the ignore function worked on this board because it would serve 2 purposes:

1: It would allow those of us who are here for debate and intellectual conversation to skip over those posts that are simply troll and flame bait.

and

2: It would possibly give those people who post nothing but trolling and flame bait posts a reason to put a bit more content in their posts, otherwise they are going to wind up ignored by so many people that their cute catch phrases will never be seen because they are ignored by so many.

My 2 cents.

 

[Rio Rebel]

As an aside through I'm really not making this post ot bash him, I'm making this post because you guys asked me for example of why this isn't a "knowledgeable and intelligent forum" and how it could be better.

No offense, Deudalus, but you've gotten so caught up in your own point that you have lost sight of the intention of this thread. This thread wasn't started so that you could tell us how to improve the forums. This thread was started to try to get some people's attention to hopefully make a commitment for more civil and rational discourse. Unfortunately, several members have turned it into another opportunity to argue their viewpoint.

Can we get back to the OP's point? Are you willing to make an effort to make this forum more civil?

 

[Dari]

As the author of that thread, I feel like I have to chime in. Being in university for the past 9 years of my life, I find it disgusting that people can talk politics in such an apolitical way.
"Want to discuss the current carnage in Darfur, Tom?"
"Sure, we can do it over lunch"

"Susie, what's your opinion on the assassination of MLK?"
"I can't talk right now. How about tea?"
"Sure"

Anyone that wants to have a civil conversation on irrational, savage events, is more than welcomed to. But they are experiencing the events in a detached sort of way. It isn't fair to those who are experiencing it first hand. You want first hand? You'll get it from me. I made the title repeat exactly what Buchanan was saying and people are appalled? This is who he is and if you are offended by his message, rebuke him, not me. This is reality and to sanitize events is to dumb it down.

You need to internalize the emotion of what's going on before you start to have a rational discussion of it (if that's even possible). Otherwise, you'll miss the actors' true intentions.
For many bigots, you can rightly ignore them, but for those that carry around a blowhorn, you have to let others know exactly what they're thinking. Hopefully, this will lead to disgust. But to discuss a bigot's view as if it deserves to be on a pedistal is wrong.

This is politics. If you can't stand the heat...

 

[Rio Rebel]

Originally posted by: Dari
As the author of that thread, I feel like I have to chime in. Being in university for the past 9 years of my life, I find it disgusting that people can talk politics in such an apolitical way.
"Want to discuss the current carnage in Darfur, Tom?"
"Sure, we can do it over lunch"

"Susie, what's your opinion on the assassination of MLK?"
"I can't talk right now. How about tea?"
"Sure"

Anyone that wants to have a civil conversation on irrational, savage events, is more than welcomed to. But they are experiencing the events in a detached sort of way. It isn't fair to those who are experiencing it first hand. You want first hand? You'll get it from me. I made the title repeat exactly what Buchanan was saying and people are appalled? This is who he is and if you are offended by his message, rebuke him, not me. This is reality and to sanitize events is to dumb it down.

You need to internalize the emotion of what's going on before you start to have a rational discussion of it (if that's even possible). Otherwise, you'll miss the actors' true intentions.
For many bigots, you can rightly ignore them, but for those that carry around a blowhorn, you have to let others know exactly what they're thinking. Hopefully, this will lead to disgust. But to discuss a bigot's view as if it deserves to be on a pedistal is wrong.

This is politics. If you can't stand the heat...

If you want to play gadfly, that's fine. But you'll play it within the rules of the forums, which look out for everyone, not just you.

Thread titles are more visible, and consequently more subject to scrutiny. Just because you like "in-your-face" politics doesn't mean everyone should be subject to offensive remarks. And when you titled that thread the way you did, you WEREN'T quoting Pat Buchanan, you were paraphrasing his remarks to draw an emotional response.

I have no problem discussing politics as emotionally as you want to get, but I have no intention of backing off when your statements are offensive to minorities. There are responsible ways to make your point, and that wasn't one of them.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel

Originally posted by: Dari
As the author of that thread, I feel like I have to chime in. Being in university for the past 9 years of my life, I find it disgusting that people can talk politics in such an apolitical way.
"Want to discuss the current carnage in Darfur, Tom?"
"Sure, we can do it over lunch"

"Susie, what's your opinion on the assassination of MLK?"
"I can't talk right now. How about tea?"
"Sure"

Anyone that wants to have a civil conversation on irrational, savage events, is more than welcomed to. But they are experiencing the events in a detached sort of way. It isn't fair to those who are experiencing it first hand. You want first hand? You'll get it from me. I made the title repeat exactly what Buchanan was saying and people are appalled? This is who he is and if you are offended by his message, rebuke him, not me. This is reality and to sanitize events is to dumb it down.

You need to internalize the emotion of what's going on before you start to have a rational discussion of it (if that's even possible). Otherwise, you'll miss the actors' true intentions.
For many bigots, you can rightly ignore them, but for those that carry around a blowhorn, you have to let others know exactly what they're thinking. Hopefully, this will lead to disgust. But to discuss a bigot's view as if it deserves to be on a pedistal is wrong.

This is politics. If you can't stand the heat...

If you want to play gadfly, that's fine. But you'll play it within the rules of the forums, which look out for everyone, not just you.

Thread titles are more visible, and consequently more subject to scrutiny. Just because you like "in-your-face" politics doesn't mean everyone should be subject to offensive remarks. And when you titled that thread the way you did, you WEREN'T quoting Pat Buchanan, you were paraphrasing his remarks to draw an emotional response.

I have no problem discussing politics as emotionally as you want to get, but I have no intention of backing off when your statements are offensive to minorities. There are responsible ways to make your point, and that wasn't one of them.

Buchanan's entire article was offensive. To have a civil debate about his points is insane. I was paraphrasing him to elicit the same emotion any minority would've felt.

Do you really think it's fair for AAs if we had a discussion where we debated Buchanan's many points? No. They were bigoted remarks and people need to see them as such.

I apologize if I broke any forum rules, but I will never apologize for not glossing over his offensive remarks. This is what he meant and there's no need to shy away from it. Worse, this is how many in this country feel so why dance around the subject?

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
No offense, Deudalus, but you've gotten so caught up in your own point that you have lost sight of the intention of this thread. This thread wasn't started so that you could tell us how to improve the forums. This thread was started to try to get some people's attention to hopefully make a commitment for more civil and rational discourse. Unfortunately, several members have turned it into another opportunity to argue their viewpoint.

Can we get back to the OP's point? Are you willing to make an effort to make this forum more civil?

Well, no offense back to you Rio but I guess you missed this post from one of your mods directed to me specifically:

Fair enough. Can you name a political forum on the net that you consider better?

Spurred by Rio's impassioned and deeply principled attempt to guide that recent racism thread toward the "light", HayaRider is asking us all to answer the call here.

In order to keep the flow, we mods have backed so far off in P&N that it does have an over-the-top lack of civility to it that turns many newcomers off.

It's been famously said many times that if we were to strictly enforce the "no personal attacks" rule here, there'd soon be no one left to post.

And, as a poster myself, I DO know how hard it is not to let your passion get the better of yourself. Simply put, it's not easy.

I hope every poster here appreciates how much free rein we've given them. We truly want this forum to succeed.

But with great freedom comes great responsibility, or something like that, so we are asking everyone to at least pause and consider doing just a bit of self-moderating, so we can together take this forum to the next level of discourse.

Obviously I'm willing to make an effort to make this forum more civil because I'm taking the time to give my point of view in this thread as to how to make it more civil.


If you want to make this forum more civil I'll give you 2 very simple ways of doing so:

1: If you disagree with many of the people here on an issue you are ridiculed, chastized, and called all of the "pet names of the week" from the like-minded peanut gallery.

Now I don't mind being called an idiot if you can give me some intellectual data proving (or at least attempting to prove) that I am an idiot but that is never offered here. You simply have people calling you "Bushwacko" or "Hippie" or any of a number of other names in a one sentence reply that contains nothing but a flame. No information, no point, no debate, just childish banter and thats it.

If someone posts a personal attack that has no substance or "meat" attached to it then you should delete it and warn them. If they keep it up, give them a week long ban.

Everyone who posts here is either attempting to make the debate more intelligent or less so and it isn't hard to figure out who is doing which.

2: Allow us to ignore people. The ignore function from what I can see doesn't even work on these forums which is sad because we have no means to disregard those people who are just here to cause drama.

 

[Deudalus]

Here's Jpeyton's response in full to someone's very valid point in the 5 year incarceration thread:

Al Capwned x100.

BA should have just avoided this thread, like the other apologists.

I'll keep updating this if you don't mind so you can start to see how annoying these are and how ridiculously badly we need the ability to ignore these people.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that both Harvey and Jpeyton are mods here on Anand's and they are two of the worst people about doing things like this.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Deudalus, I don't know how you interpreted previous comments as asking you for your list of posts that annoy you, but it is NOT the point of this thread. Perknose was not asking you to hijack this thread with your running list of examples of the types of comments you don't like.

Please don't keep doing this. It's not relevant to the discussion, and the discussion is an important one.

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Deudalus, I don't know how you interpreted previous comments as asking you for your list of posts that annoy you, but it is NOT the point of this thread. Perknose was not asking you to hijack this thread with your running list of examples of the types of comments you don't like.

Please don't keep doing this. It's not relevant to the discussion, and the discussion is an important one.

The post was asking how can we make the boards more civil and in general improve the boards was it not?

Look, I don't know you and I don't dislike you and I'm not trying to argue with you.


If all the discussion was about was to make topic titles less sensationalistic and crazy then that could simply be done with a locked sticky post requiring that people stop making threads with crazy titles in them.

The other mods chimed in with a call to arms to make the boards more civil via self moderation here:

Spurred by Rio's impassioned and deeply principled attempt to guide that recent racism thread toward the "light", HayaRider is asking us all to answer the call here.

In order to keep the flow, we mods have backed so far off in P&N that it does have an over-the-top lack of civility to it that turns many newcomers off.

It's been famously said many times that if we were to strictly enforce the "no personal attacks" rule here, there'd soon be no one left to post.

And, as a poster myself, I DO know how hard it is not to let your passion get the better of yourself. Simply put, it's not easy.

I hope every poster here appreciates how much free rein we've given them. We truly want this forum to succeed.

But with great freedom comes great responsibility, or something like that, so we are asking everyone to at least pause and consider doing just a bit of self-moderating, so we can together take this forum to the next level of discourse.

I'm not saying I'm not guilty of the same things that I'm accusing Harvey and Jpeyton of because occasionally I am, but that doesn't change the fact that it is posts like that the drag this forum down.

They do this because the people that were trying to have civil, intelligent debate can no longer do so because they have to sift through too many one liners and other ridiculous flame posts to find any real content.

 

[superstition]

We need to realize that we are all being played in some wrestle-mania type stage show and we are falling for it. There really is very little difference between the left and right....I don't think that there is a single person that posts here that is solidly on the left on every issue nor is there anyone that is solidly right on any issue.

Were you reading this?

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Dari
Buchanan's entire article was offensive. To have a civil debate about his points is insane. I was paraphrasing him to elicit the same emotion any minority would've felt.

Do you really think it's fair for AAs if we had a discussion where we debated Buchanan's many points? No. They were bigoted remarks and people need to see them as such.

I apologize if I broke any forum rules, but I will never apologize for not glossing over his offensive remarks. This is what he meant and there's no need to shy away from it. Worse, this is how many in this country feel so why dance around the subject?

1. It is YOUR view that his comments were bigoted, which is fine that is why we are here to share our personal views. But there are others who would disagree with your view.

2. You should have not started the thread with a title that was offensive in itself. At least Buchanan had some context to what he was saying, your title had no context and seemed to be only meant to offend or gather attention to it.

3. This isn't the thread to talk about other threads

 

[Mail5398]

Darn it. I read the topic too fast. I thought it was about self masturbation not self moderation.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Dari
Buchanan's entire article was offensive. To have a civil debate about his points is insane. I was paraphrasing him to elicit the same emotion any minority would've felt.

Do you really think it's fair for AAs if we had a discussion where we debated Buchanan's many points? No. They were bigoted remarks and people need to see them as such.

I apologize if I broke any forum rules, but I will never apologize for not glossing over his offensive remarks. This is what he meant and there's no need to shy away from it. Worse, this is how many in this country feel so why dance around the subject?

1. It is YOUR view that his comments were bigoted, which is fine that is why we are here to share our personal views. But there are others who would disagree with your view.

They are bigoted but those that don't see them as bigoted probably agreed with them anyway. Which side are you on?

2. You should have not started the thread with a title that was offensive in itself. At least Buchanan had some context to what he was saying, your title had no context and seemed to be only meant to offend or gather attention to it.

Why don't you try re-reading the locked thread and my earlier comments in this thread if you have a problem understanding my point.

3. This isn't the thread to talk about other threads

It is forward-looking thread. But in order to look forward, you have to know why and that implies remembrance.

 

[dmcowen674]

If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

There is a huge difference between what you state and throwing deliberating eggshells on the floor for others to step on

 

[ss284]

I don't post much here, and mostly lurk, but I have to agree with Deudalus's point. You asked for opinions and ideas on how to improve the forums and make the conversation a bit more civil. The general guidelines posted try to limit personal attacks in an attempt to help with this.

However, its counter-productive when moderators, even those from other parts of the forum, come and post remarks that are easily seen as a personal attack, even if the gray line between debate and personal attacks was huge. Granted the good majority of the posters here are guilty as well.

I understand moderating is hard work, and might not be the most rewarding, but posts like the ones Deudalus mentioned are what keeps me from posting in the more heated threads, and also lowers my enjoyment.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

Oh boohoo. :roll:

And lying and inflaming all the time like you do makes for a good P&N? The best part with you is that when your broken clock is right those 2 times each day, you pretend that validates all the other times when you're wrong.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

There is a huge difference between what you state and throwing deliberating eggshells on the floor for others to step on

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

Oh boohoo. :roll:

And lying and inflaming all the time like you do makes for a good P&N? The best part with you is that when your broken clock is right those 2 times each day, you pretend that validates all the other times when you're wrong.

You're both entitled to your opinions but they are just that, opinions.

What makes you guys any better than me or anyone else?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

There is a huge difference between what you state and throwing deliberating eggshells on the floor for others to step on

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

Oh boohoo. :roll:

And lying and inflaming all the time like you do makes for a good P&N? The best part with you is that when your broken clock is right those 2 times each day, you pretend that validates all the other times when you're wrong.

You're both entitled to your opinions but they are just that, opinions.

What makes you guys any better than me or anyone else?

i don't we are talking "better" .. we are talking about "outside the norm" for even P&N. From what little time i spent here i notice that you stick out like the tallest blade of grass - usually a "bitter weed" that gets whacked hardest by the Mod's lawnmower blade. But you seem resourceful and it also appears that you like getting the extra 'attention' with that "smack" also as you also appear to "give" a little more than you "get" back each time in return until it escalates way beyond the norm and the result is often hurt feelings, flames, personal attacks and bitterness in P&N until the thread gets locked or a member [or a few] gets banned; and a possibly useful discussion is again derailed and terminated possibly "on purpose".

i would not even *think* of telling you *anything* - let alone to "fit in" with the sheepies or even to "tone it down" .. you know how to survive here and i guess you like walking the tightrope without a net .. sometimes it is a very hard fall .. unfortunately those are consequences you seem unprepared to accept and you do adopt the "martyr role" - obviously by the "Scarlet Letter" you proudly bear in your sig that MOST of us would be embarrassed by.
--it IS obvious to me, at least ,what your function here is in P&N
. . . it IS entertaining .. at least for a little while .. thanks!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

There is a huge difference between what you state and throwing deliberating eggshells on the floor for others to step on

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If tip toeing on egg shells is what floats your boat don't see how that makes a good P&N.

Good luck with that.

Oh boohoo. :roll:

And lying and inflaming all the time like you do makes for a good P&N? The best part with you is that when your broken clock is right those 2 times each day, you pretend that validates all the other times when you're wrong.

You're both entitled to your opinions but they are just that, opinions.

What makes you guys any better than me or anyone else?

i don't we are talking "better" .. we are talking about "outside the norm" for even P&N. From what little time i spent here i notice that you stick out like the tallest blade of grass - usually a "bitter weed" that gets whacked hardest by the Mod's lawnmower blade. But you seem resourceful and it also appears that you like getting the extra 'attention' with that "smack" also as you also appear to "give" a little more than you "get" back each time in return until it escalates way beyond the norm and the result is often hurt feelings, flames, personal attacks and bitterness in P&N until the thread gets locked or a member [or a few] gets banned; and a possibly useful discussion is again derailed and terminated possibly "on purpose".

i would not even *think* of telling you *anything* - let alone to "fit in" with the sheepies or even to "tone it down" .. you know how to survive here and i guess you like walking the tightrope without a net .. sometimes it is a very hard fall .. unfortunately those are consequences you seem unprepared to accept and you do adopt the "martyr role" - obviously by the "Scarlet Letter" you proudly bear in your sig that MOST of us would be embarrassed by.
--it IS obvious to me, at least ,what your function here is in P&N
. . . it IS entertaining .. at least for a little while .. thanks!

Guess you could say when you get attacked on a regular basis you adapt

Best example of Darwin's survival of the fittest

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Guess you could say when you get attacked on a regular basis you adapt

Best example of Darwin's survival of the fittest

Actually you have given a correct assessment of part of it ...

In this case, the 'attackee' has to cooperate to some extent with the attacker to allow Darwin's theory to fully apply.
-and i have seen higher animals lay a trap for their would-be predators sometimes even to provoking an attack.