I'd like you all to have a look at this

[Hayabusa Rider]

It is no secret that we here on P&N are opinionated and sensitive to the news around us regarding US and world issues. It's also well known that we can get carried away with things. Some people like to use shock value by using inflammatory lead-in titles. Controversy, like sex, sells.

We recently had a thread here which typifies what I mean. This is not an invitation to "critique" the poster, however I am pointing out that titles like this immediately get people ruffled and looking for a fight.

It's no trick to do this on the internet, where in real life it may get us a punch in the face.

Here is the bottom line. My suggestion is that before you post try to think how your title will be perceived by someone coming into this forum who does NOT usually do so, then phrase the title in a way that would have people want to look at it, but not leave in disgust and may even want to post a response but not in anger.

I think it may make for a more lively forum in a constructive way since others may want to participate. I could be wrong, however why don't you give it a try.

Now for the disclaimer. You people have known me for some time. I'm a straight shooter, non PC guy. I tell you how I see it. Because I am a member AND a mod I want you to know this is MY idea. As such there has been NO CHANGE in how this forum is moderated. I am not coming in with a hammer to beat on you. On the contrary, it is no trick to lock and make a comment. It's not about we moderators enforcing rules, but you using common sense.

Will you give it a try?

 

[Exterous]

I'll try almost anything once

 

[olds]

A noble idea but I fear we have too many drama queens here. They live for the controversy not for intelligent discourse.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Wow....you sound like you have reached the point that I have. That is why I started the thread last week to get those on the right to use more honest rhetoric when addressing "liberals" and had hoped that they could add some of the things that the left does similarly so that the debate could consist of more honest rhetoric when addressing "conservatives".

We need to realize that we are all being played in some wrestle-mania type stage show and we are falling for it. There really is very little difference between the left and right. Just issues that we feel so strongly about that we associate ourselves with one side more. I don't think that there is a single person that posts here that is solidly on the left on every issue nor is there anyone that is solidly right on any issue.

The time for name calling is long past and we need to get down to debating openly and constructively about all issues and work towards an agreeable common ground.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It is no secret that we here on P&N are opinionated

That as much of an understatement as saying water is wet...Plus, don't forget, only MY opinion matters or is right...everyone else is a fool or moron.

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Here is the bottom line. My suggestion is that before you post try to think how your title will be perceived by someone coming into this forum who does NOT usually do so,

Therein lies a major part of the problem...think BEFORE you post? What a novel idea...

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
then phrase the title in a way that would have people want to look at it, but not leave in disgust and may even want to post a response but not in anger.

But isn't that the idea? Offend someone so much that they just leave rather than dispute the wisdom I/we/you have imparted upon the unlearned masses?

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It's not about we moderators enforcing rules, but you using common sense.

Will you give it a try?

Did someone hack Hayabusa Rider's account?
This sounds like some idealistic noob talking...

I've seen things get MUCH worse here ever since they relaxed the "no-cuss" rule last year. Sure, you can offend/flame/insult people without the use of "the seven words you can't say on television," but since the admins changed that policy, it's gotten so much easier to "drop the "f-bomb" 16 million times per thread. I'm guilty of it myself...allowing the other "imitation cuss words" like fck, fsck, fvck, etc. just keep the problem going.
Some of the best and most informative sites I visit have strict no-cuss filters in their forum software, and very strict no-flame rules in the TOS.

I enjoy it here, and unlike most folks in P&N, I have a good time with the folks in OT, and unlike most of the folks in OT, I enjoy most of the discourse here in P&N.
(ever notice how both groups think the other is a bunch of clueless morons?)

There seem to be two topics here that draw the most heat...guns and guns.

Everything else pretty much takes a back seat to those...

I will give your new and innovative idea a trial...but (sadly) I expect this too will go down in flames...:roll:

 

[EagleKeeper]

His ideas are blessed by other Moderators however idealistic they may be.


Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
A noble idea but I fear we have too many drama queens here. They live for the controversy not for intelligent discourse.

HEY!! No personal attacks allowed!

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
A noble idea but I fear we have too many drama queens here. They live for the controversy not for intelligent discourse.

HEY!! No personal attacks allowed!

When did you admit to being a drama queen?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
A noble idea but I fear we have too many drama queens here. They live for the controversy not for intelligent discourse.

HEY!! No personal attacks allowed!

When did you admit to being a drama queen?

He came out at the other forum.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
A noble idea but I fear we have too many drama queens here. They live for the controversy not for intelligent discourse.

HEY!! No personal attacks allowed!

When did you admit to being a drama queen?

LOL, I thought he was attacking you. :shocked:

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
A noble idea but I fear we have too many drama queens here. They live for the controversy not for intelligent discourse.

HEY!! No personal attacks allowed!

When did you admit to being a drama queen?

He came out at the other forum.

Did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not, did not.

 

[heyheybooboo]

I would rather endorse and empower the Mods to revise Topic titles (and note the revision in the OP). ""Topic Title revised from XXX by Mod YYY""

The 'topic' of the thread in question could have been revised to ...

Patrick J. Buchanan is a Big, Fat Idiot -- lol --

I like ol' Pat but in this case he rolled out the same ol' xeno-rhetoric we've heard for 30 years. The responses in the thread were classic, predictable and typical.

I'm sure there will be times when I don't like a topic title revision by a Mod - but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I wouldn't consider it censorship because in the original OP you can list it. I would consider it prudent in reducing the propaganda and 'Gotcha' titles ...

 

[Moonbeam]

I think this is a tricky issue, Hay, because it amounts to asking a bigot to delay injecting his bigotry until after he's presented a non-bigoted title to his thread, whereas, in actual fact a real bigot is totally unaware that he is a bigot yet injects his bigotry unconsciously everywhere.

You can ask unconscious people to be conscious but they can't any more than you can ask the blind to see.

The question, then, for people who can think rationally on some bigot's topic, is how to respond. As they say, you can tell a bigot, but you can't tell him much. Therefore, one has to ask what should be one's reply. Do you tell the bigot you forgive him and hope he finds a cure, or do you laugh him out of the house.

They also say, the answer to a fool is silence but experience has shown that in the long run any other answer will have the same effect.

My own personal opinion is that bigots are a home grown phenomenon, in India there are those who look down on this or that cast. In America there are prejudices against blacks. In Ireland Orange and Green seem to drive people to kill. Gypsies, Jews, Arabs, Poles, Greeks, Italians, the English, Americans, everybody is hated somewhere by somebody, and bigots will happily kill each other in their claims that the object of their bigotry is the worst.

It can't be more obvious to one bigot that the next bigot is insane. It is only his own bigotry that is rational, you see, because it is based on an unconscious certainty that the object of his own bigotry is evil. This was inculcated into the bigot at an age before he could reason, when all the hate we experienced, we deflected onto somebody else, so that we could survive. We had to become bigots or we would have died. One can't function and feel the endless pain of being told you are worthless and unloved. We had to pretend we were good and the evil was over there to survive.

What do you do when what allowed you to survive then is killing you now? The bigot destroys the world in the name of saving it. How can he be made to see that he destroys himself because of his bigotry. How can he see that what he really hates is himself, and that without real justification, that all he was taught about himself and others was a lie?

'He who dies in my name shall have eternal live.' How can this be heard?

 

[Deudalus]

Firstly, I agree with ya HR on the title thing but it won't ever fly around here. There are so many drama queens here and people that like to make everything emotional.

Hell one guy tried to point out that sharks still traffic the old slave trade routes as reason that racism still exists. It is no different than pro-life people smearing blood all over an abortion clinic or anti-war people smearing blood all over themselves and breaking up a news conference or some such.

The thing that bugs me though is that there is no internal policing by the normal members. Someone can make a sensationalistic and emotional comment that has no real bearing on anything and the other members who generally agree with that person will blindly agree with them and say "ooh good point" rather than demand that people actually argue an intelligent point.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In America there are prejudices against blacks.

Very interesting speech Moon which I agree with a little but disagree with a little too.

I would like to point out though that in American there is prejudices against everyone, not just blacks.

There is no simple scenario in which every person is either a victim or an oppressor no matter how convenient that might make some people's viewpoints.

 

[DerekWilson]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
I would rather endorse and empower the Mods to revise Topic titles (and note the revision in the OP). ""Topic Title revised from XXX by Mod YYY""

The 'topic' of the thread in question could have been revised to ...

Patrick J. Buchanan is a Big, Fat Idiot -- lol --

I like ol' Pat but in this case he rolled out the same ol' xeno-rhetoric we've heard for 30 years. The responses in the thread were classic, predictable and typical.

I'm sure there will be times when I don't like a topic title revision by a Mod - but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I wouldn't consider it censorship because in the original OP you can list it. I would consider it prudent in reducing the propaganda and 'Gotcha' titles ...

Mods already have the authority to alter topic titles if they so choose. AnandTech has encouraged them to, as much as possible, not to censor.

We would prefer to see positive encouragement of future action and have our mods guide the community rather than police it. Certainly, sometimes things need to be done to stop something in its tracks. The mods have the power to do this when necessary, but when there is another way we encourage them to try and find it.

This thread is a prime example of what we want, not just from mods, but from everyone here. This place is for all of you. We hope you will want to make it the best forum it can be.

Yeah, I'm idealistic, this thread is idealistic, whatever. This is a better way to /try/ to handle issues. We've got the ban stick standing by when we need it though, so don't get the idea that just because we want to encourage you guys to help keep things clean that we've gone all soft on ya.

All that being said, the title of the thread linked in the OP was a TOS violation. If it had been attributed to Buchanan it would have been less of an issue (even if no less offensive).

I hope you guys respond positively to this. As Hayabusa Rider said, this isn't officially enforced policy, but we sure would love to see you guys give it a shot


::EDIT::

By the way ... I consider this the premier political forum on the internet. Yes you guys can get hot headed and contentious, but there isn't a place around that has such a collection of intelligent, knowledgeable and passionate members all coming together for debate in as functional a manner as we have here.

There are other forums where truly no holds are barred which serve only as a 24/7 flame fest. Still other places have tighter restrictions and civilized discussion, but they lose that visceral sense of raw humanity that I think we maintain here even in the most tame (for P&N) threads.

I'm proud of you guys and honored to be a part of these forums. But that doesn't mean I don't think you can do better

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: DerekWilson
::EDIT::

By the way ... I consider this the premier political forum on the internet. Yes you guys can get hot headed and contentious, but there isn't a place around that has such a collection of intelligent, knowledgeable and passionate members all coming together for debate in as functional a manner as we have here.

There are other forums where truly no holds are barred which serve only as a 24/7 flame fest. Still other places have tighter restrictions and civilized discussion, but they lose that visceral sense of raw humanity that I think we maintain here even in the most tame (for P&N) threads.

I'm proud of you guys and honored to be a part of these forums. But that doesn't mean I don't think you can do better

I'd have to seriously disagree.

I think this forum is entertaining which is why I continue to come. But it isn't intellectual, and it isn't knowledgeable, but it is passionate which is why it is entertaining.

The ONLY thread that I have seen here recently that any liberal or conservative actually agreed on was the "home schooling ban" thread. Other than that its simply people posting talking points from one side or another and towing the line.

You can tell from my post count that I spend less time here than most and I can still look at a thread title and go down the list of the usual suspects and tell you exactly what they think and what they will post.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Deudalus
I think this forum is entertaining which is why I continue to come. But it isn't intellectual, and it isn't knowledgeable, but it is passionate which is why it is entertaining.
-snip-

We do have threads here that are more than just Left/Right talking points. For example:

I'd recommend reading some of this Thread about the Supreme Court and the 2nd Amendment. While there will certainly be some of the usual Left/Right stuff in there, you'll also find some pretty decent info on prior cases and Constitutional analysis etc.

Similarly, THIS on starts out about CA medical marijuana and pretty quickly gets into the Interstate Commerce Clause of the Constitution. Yes, as usual there is some BS to wade through, but also some good info.

We have fairly knowledgeable professionals in the banking industry and they offer some interesting insight into the current home mortgage credit crunch in those threads.

Occasionally, we'll have soldiers posting from Iraq or Afganistan with their personal eye witness accounts of conditions over there. They'll be posting in "surge" threads and others related to the Iraq war.

There is some "wheat among the chaff" if you know where to look

Fern

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Deudalus
Firstly, I agree with ya HR on the title thing but it won't ever fly around here. There are so many drama queens here and people that like to make everything emotional.

Hell one guy tried to point out that sharks still traffic the old slave trade routes as reason that racism still exists. It is no different than pro-life people smearing blood all over an abortion clinic or anti-war people smearing blood all over themselves and breaking up a news conference or some such.

The thing that bugs me though is that there is no internal policing by the normal members. Someone can make a sensationalistic and emotional comment that has no real bearing on anything and the other members who generally agree with that person will blindly agree with them and say "ooh good point" rather than demand that people actually argue an intelligent point.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In America there are prejudices against blacks.

Very interesting speech Moon which I agree with a little but disagree with a little too.

I would like to point out though that in American there is prejudices against everyone, not just blacks.

There is no simple scenario in which every person is either a victim or an oppressor no matter how convenient that might make some people's viewpoints.

Because you didn't specifically say what you agree with and with what you disagree, I can't tell if you thought I was implying that a prejudice against blacks defines prejudice in America. It certainly does not. My point was that prejudice is locally produced. American prejudice against blacks is locally caught just as caste prejudice is locally Indian. The point is that when you see the insular stupidity of somebody else's prejudice, you are seeing what you likely look like to others if you have your local kind.

The fact that victim and oppressor overlap is, here, to my mind, a completely different issue and not one I felt was in need of address.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

Originally posted by: DerekWilson
::EDIT::

By the way ... I consider this the premier political forum on the internet. Yes you guys can get hot headed and contentious, but there isn't a place around that has such a collection of intelligent, knowledgeable and passionate members all coming together for debate in as functional a manner as we have here.

There are other forums where truly no holds are barred which serve only as a 24/7 flame fest. Still other places have tighter restrictions and civilized discussion, but they lose that visceral sense of raw humanity that I think we maintain here even in the most tame (for P&N) threads.

I'm proud of you guys and honored to be a part of these forums. But that doesn't mean I don't think you can do better

I'd have to seriously disagree.

Fair enough. Can you name a political forum on the net that you consider better?

Spurred by Rio's impassioned and deeply principled attempt to guide that recent racism thread toward the "light", HayaRider is asking us all to answer the call here.

In order to keep the flow, we mods have backed so far off in P&N that it does have an over-the-top lack of civility to it that turns many newcomers off.

It's been famously said many times that if we were to strictly enforce the "no personal attacks" rule here, there'd soon be no one left to post.

And, as a poster myself, I DO know how hard it is not to let your passion get the better of yourself. Simply put, it's not easy.

I hope every poster here appreciates how much free rein we've given them. We truly want this forum to succeed.

But with great freedom comes great responsibility, or something like that, so we are asking everyone to at least pause and consider doing just a bit of self-moderating, so we can together take this forum to the next level of discourse.

Step 3 . . . Profit!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It is no secret that we here on P&N are opinionated and sensitive to the news around us regarding US and world issues. It's also well known that we can get carried away with things. Some people like to use shock value by using inflammatory lead-in titles. Controversy, like sex, sells.

We recently had a thread here which typifies what I mean. This is not an invitation to "critique" the poster, however I am pointing out that titles like this immediately get people ruffled and looking for a fight.

It's no trick to do this on the internet, where in real life it may get us a punch in the face.

Here is the bottom line. My suggestion is that before you post try to think how your title will be perceived by someone coming into this forum who does NOT usually do so, then phrase the title in a way that would have people want to look at it, but not leave in disgust and may even want to post a response but not in anger.

I think it may make for a more lively forum in a constructive way since others may want to participate. I could be wrong, however why don't you give it a try.

Now for the disclaimer. You people have known me for some time. I'm a straight shooter, non PC guy. I tell you how I see it. Because I am a member AND a mod I want you to know this is MY idea. As such there has been NO CHANGE in how this forum is moderated. I am not coming in with a hammer to beat on you. On the contrary, it is no trick to lock and make a comment. It's not about we moderators enforcing rules, but you using common sense.

Will you give it a try?

To me, right now, this is as real as outside communications get, perhaps i should avoid it because i do have a problem with being calm when ... hrm people try to tell me the truth of a situation i know more about than most.

I have a hard time staying calm right now, you can forgive me for that or ban me, either way, even when i calm down, my words stand, i have not uttered a word on this forum that i regretted (in PM's is another matter, unfortunantly).

Take care of you and those of yours.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It is no secret that we here on P&N are opinionated and sensitive to the news around us regarding US and world issues. It's also well known that we can get carried away with things. Some people like to use shock value by using inflammatory lead-in titles. Controversy, like sex, sells.

We recently had a thread here which typifies what I mean. This is not an invitation to "critique" the poster, however I am pointing out that titles like this immediately get people ruffled and looking for a fight.

It's no trick to do this on the internet, where in real life it may get us a punch in the face.

Here is the bottom line. My suggestion is that before you post try to think how your title will be perceived by someone coming into this forum who does NOT usually do so, then phrase the title in a way that would have people want to look at it, but not leave in disgust and may even want to post a response but not in anger.

I think it may make for a more lively forum in a constructive way since others may want to participate. I could be wrong, however why don't you give it a try.

Now for the disclaimer. You people have known me for some time. I'm a straight shooter, non PC guy. I tell you how I see it. Because I am a member AND a mod I want you to know this is MY idea. As such there has been NO CHANGE in how this forum is moderated. I am not coming in with a hammer to beat on you. On the contrary, it is no trick to lock and make a comment. It's not about we moderators enforcing rules, but you using common sense.

Will you give it a try?

I just read the thread... that's just fucking wrong. I don't know how else to put it.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It is no secret that we here on P&N are opinionated

That as much of an understatement as saying water is wet...Plus, don't forget, only MY opinion matters or is right...everyone else is a fool or moron.

Well, sometimes there are facts of life, like the Talibans need to be exterminated, every each and last one of them needs to be dead to have peace and prosperity among the population of a region, i can say that because i KNOW that, i can say that because i've been here several rounds and we are getting people fleeing FROM Pakistan to Afghanistan, which has become somewhat of a safehaven for those who don't want their pree teen girls raped and shot in the vagina and left to bleed to death, i know this because i've seen it, i know it's common because i hear the stories i've witnessed repeated by the people who manage to pass.

So for me, my opinion matters and anyone who have never been there or fought in a similar situation (that excludes the OP btw, he knows) cannot really state an opinion on my situation while sitting on their fat arses at home, facts are facts no matter what opinions may say.

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Fair enough. Can you name a political forum on the net that you consider better?

You misunderstand me. I was not stating that there is or is not a better forum for political chat than this one. There might be, odds are that there is considering how damn big the internet is. But either way, that isn't what I was refuting.

What I was refuting was the claim that "there isn't a place around that has such a collection of intelligent, knowledgeable and passionate members all coming together for debate in as functional a manner as we have here."

I wouldn't accuse 99% of the conversations here as being intelligent or knowledgeable nor would I consider most of the people engaging in them as showing intelligence or knowledge.

Which is not to say that they aren't intelligent or knowledgeable people, it is simply to say that they rarely show those traits while discussing politics here.

Spurred by Rio's impassioned and deeply principled attempt to guide that recent racism thread toward the "light", HayaRider is asking us all to answer the call here.

I personally don't see that as a racist thread, I see it as a racist and controversial title to a thread about race. However, it wasn't racist.

All Buchanan really did was use controversial (and many borderline stupid) points to back up a valid point of view. By doing this he has a lot in common with pretty much every other poster here.

Harvey for example won't really engage in an intellectual discussion on many things, he will however write a song or poem about it and then quote it and expect that to win ya over. I hate to single out Harvey but he is a fine example of doing essentially the same thing that Buchanan did which is argue a valid point in a totally moronic way.

Honestly, if my ignore button worked on members I'd be pretty happy around here. I love a spirited debate and can definitely agree with both the right or the left on any given issue.

I simply can't stand having to sift through 10 bad posts by the same people while trying to find the one well written and thought out post.

 

[Deudalus]

To go a bit further and totally explain myself I think the basic problem that we have is that there are a whole lot of intelligent and knowledgeable people here on this board but they simply aren't as passionate (and by passionate I mean willing to post 50 times or more per day) as the ones lacking (or refusing to show any) intelligence or knowledge.

Just because someone posts 25,000 times in the politics section of P&N and it says Diamond or whatever member under their name doesn't make them knowledgeable or intelligent; it only makes them passionate with lots of free time. When someone's idea of contributing to a discussion is: No blood for oil, Bush lied people died, Liberals hate America, Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim, or some other type of drivel then really that just functions to drown out anyone trying to have an honest debate about anything.

Maybe I'm too cynical but that's all I see.

PS: Why doesn't the ignore function work anyways?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Deudalus
To go a bit further and totally explain myself I think the basic problem that we have is that there are a whole lot of intelligent and knowledgeable people here on this board but they simply aren't as passionate (and by passionate I mean willing to post 50 times or more per day) as the ones lacking (or refusing to show any) intelligence or knowledge.

Just because someone posts 25,000 times in the politics section of P&N and it says Diamond or whatever member under their name doesn't make them knowledgeable or intelligent; it only makes them passionate with lots of free time. When someone's idea of contributing to a discussion is: No blood for oil, Bush lied people died, Liberals hate America, Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim, or some other type of drivel then really that just functions to drown out anyone trying to have an honest debate about anything.

Maybe I'm too cynical but that's all I see.

PS: Why doesn't the ignore function work anyways?

Ok, i'm a frequent poster of the P&N, and i know your biochemistry better than you ever will, i know religions better than most, even those who practice them, i know psychology, i know more about the human body, as a whole, everything, the signal substances, the hormones, the buildup, what substances affect what in your body and how they do that.

But maybe it's not a smart thing to learn about how you work as a human being?

One thing i really despise is people like yourself, you couldn't even tell me what signal substance elicit the response you're getting right now, and you're supposed to be smarter than me, i know your body better than you ever will.