Ice Hockey: dichotomy

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: iRONic
"A second-line scoring talent"

Samsonov hasn't been that in years...

That's why he should be cheap. When you've overspent on someone like McCabe, you need to take some gambles and win.

They wouldn't need the extra talent if Jeff O'Neil Was doing what he should.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Toronto skilled on both sides of the puck? Yeah there was a ton of D being played Saturday night!

Either one of those squads would be abso-freakin-lutely PWNED by the Sabres.

Skilled on both sides of the puck means just that. They are good but not great.

If Toronto met Buffalo in the 1st round, then Buffalo probably wins in 5 or 6.
If they met in the 3rd round, then I could see TO pushing the series to 7 and maybe winning - no way it's ownage.

Oh well, agree to disagree. I don't think they could even win 1 game against the Sabres right now. Sabres 3rd line is Roy, Afinegenov and Vanek. That is just sick!

They manhandled the Sabres for two games, and only lost one of them due to a 3rd-period meltdown.

The Sabres are a much more talented team than the Leafs, there's no doubt.

The Leafs were also the best candidates from the bottom of the Eastern heap to give the Sabres fits.

The two statements are not contradictory.

Manhandled is a pretty strong word, and if it weren't for the Leafs inability to protect leads, they wouldn't be booking tee times right now. As it is, there are 8 playoff matchups to discuss... why are we talking about the Leafs?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Manhandled is a pretty strong word, and if it weren't for the Leafs inability to protect leads, they wouldn't be booking tee times right now. As it is, there are 8 playoff matchups to discuss... why are we talking about the Leafs?

Now that is a good question.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: meltdown75
why are we talking about the Leafs?

That's harsh

I live in Baltimore now, but I am born and bred in Canada. Mostly Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. I may have steered the conversation a little in that direction

Besides, this isn't the playoff thread. This talking about requirements in playoffs and regular season being so different.

 

[RbSX]

Gotta get my hand on Canucks playoff tickets ftw

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Manhandled is a pretty strong word, and if it weren't for the Leafs inability to protect leads, they wouldn't be booking tee times right now. As it is, there are 8 playoff matchups to discuss... why are we talking about the Leafs?

Now that is a good question.

This isn't the playoff thread. This is discussing why what gets you to the playoffs isn't what wins them and vice-versa.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Manhandled is a pretty strong word, and if it weren't for the Leafs inability to protect leads, they wouldn't be booking tee times right now. As it is, there are 8 playoff matchups to discuss... why are we talking about the Leafs?

Now that is a good question.

This isn't the playoff thread. This is discussing why what gets you to the playoffs isn't what wins them and vice-versa.

I just started with whatever I read when I got in here.

I agree that there's a reason the top regular-season teams often have little success in the playoffs.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: meltdown75
why are we talking about the Leafs?

That's harsh

I live in Baltimore now, but I am born and bred in Canada. Mostly Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. I may have steered the conversation a little in that direction

Besides, this isn't the playoff thread. This talking about requirements in playoffs and regular season being so different.

Well on that note, wins and points gets you there. Once you get there your team is exposed for what it really is. Teams that get to beat up on weak divisional opponents all year get a crapload of points from those squads. I'm not even going to bother listing the commonly used example. You need a lot to succeed in the playoffs, but the main 3 things IMHO are depth, grit and heart, and goaltending.

 

[Abel007]

/tosses in a quick "Go Thrashers!" and runs for the exit

 

[iRONic]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: iRONic
"A second-line scoring talent"

Samsonov hasn't been that in years...

That's why he should be cheap. When you've overspent on someone like McCabe, you need to take some gambles and win.

They wouldn't need the extra talent if Jeff O'Neil Was doing what he should.

Doesn't matter how cheap Sammy comes he'll never be a second-line scoring talent again since his best years are behind him. He's nothing more than a soft dipsy-doodler who has become a turnover specialist.

 

[KMFJD]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: KMFJD
Toronto does not have enough talent up front, their defence consists of Kaberle, Kubina, Mcabbe and a white/blue pylon called Gill. Sundin would be good if he ever had a decent winger or two, Ponakorovski (sp?) and Antropov are not first line players (maybe 3rd line or 2nd on a ****** team) , Tucker is good, Wellwood/Steen seem to be decent, Stajan is ok, rest of the team stinks......I do give them points for actually bringing up young players, that's a step in the right direction, but paying McCabe so much money was a huge mistake as was giving Kubina so much $$ (he hasn't played that bad though but no way near worth 5m a year)

You don't need talent up front to win in the playoffs. You need a couple of guys who can score (Sundin and Wellwood), you need great pressure on the PP (Kaberle and McCabe) and then you need tons of toughness and grit (offensively and defensively) to get the garbage goals and to shut the other teams sniper(s) down.

The one component Toronto is missing is a game-breaker goalie. If they had picked up Hasek in the off season and he stayed healthy all year, Toronto would be going to the conference finals against Buffalo. The only other thing I would have liked to see them get would have been a fleet skating defensive, defensemen.

Toronto lacks skill at the forward position

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: iRONic

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: iRONic
"A second-line scoring talent"

Samsonov hasn't been that in years...

That's why he should be cheap. When you've overspent on someone like McCabe, you need to take some gambles and win.

They wouldn't need the extra talent if Jeff O'Neil Was doing what he should.

Doesn't matter how cheap Sammy comes he'll never be a second-line scoring talent again since his best years are behind him. He's nothing more than a soft dipsy-doodler who has become a turnover specialist.

*remembers woefully strange drop-pass to no one in game 7 of the Cup finals last year* :/

 

[SSP]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: iRONic

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: iRONic
"A second-line scoring talent"

Samsonov hasn't been that in years...

That's why he should be cheap. When you've overspent on someone like McCabe, you need to take some gambles and win.

They wouldn't need the extra talent if Jeff O'Neil Was doing what he should.

Doesn't matter how cheap Sammy comes he'll never be a second-line scoring talent again since his best years are behind him. He's nothing more than a soft dipsy-doodler who has become a turnover specialist.

*remembers woefully strange drop-pass to no one in game 7 of the Cup finals last year* :/

Haha, I was going to mention that. He's done, which means Fergeson will most likely sign him to a 3 year, 7.5 mill deal with a no trade clause (just to fsck us over when hes booted).

 

[cherrytwist]

Hottest goaltending will win the playoffs and eventually, the cup.

It's not rocket science, folks.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: SSP
Haha, I was going to mention that. He's done, which means Fergeson will most likely sign him to a 3 year, 7.5 mill deal with a no trade clause (just to fsck us over when hes booted).

He's just one name, but probably one that would be worth a gamble. Not a big contract though, just a gamble.

TO needs to get about $3million worth of talent for a song unless McCabe magically turns into Wade Redden, which is even more unlikely.

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: RyanSengara

Just shows that when the lightening face a formidable defense they can't bunker down and keep the goals out of their own net and their own scoring can be kept to a minimum.

Yeah, that's why they're 3-1 against the best defensively-minded team in the Eastern Conference, the very team they are going to face in the playoffs, the Devils. Riiiiight. You're knowledgeable.

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
The Leafs were also the best candidates from the bottom of the Eastern heap to give the Sabres fits.

Wrong. The Canadiens match up against the Sabres extremely well, better than most teams in that made the playoffs in the East. They've split the series with the Sabres 4-4. 5 of those games were decided by a single goal.

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

I would like to point out that the Leafs haven't won in 40 years, nor have they even made it to the finals in that period. So much for being a great playoff team :roll:

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Originally posted by: JujuFish

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
The Leafs were also the best candidates from the bottom of the Eastern heap to give the Sabres fits.

Wrong. The Canadiens match up against the Sabres extremely well, better than most teams in that made the playoffs in the East. They've split the series with the Sabres 4-4. 5 of those games were decided by a single goal.

In fairness, I think the Habs also faced Conklin and Biron at least a couple of times during the season. But also in fairness, the Leafs defense and goaltending lets more people score them than a cheap hooker in the wrong part of town.

IMHO, the Leafs had no chance of making it out of the first round, neither did the Habs, and neither do the Isles. The best any of these teams could have hoped for is to wear down the Sabres who have a bunch of players who just came off IR.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
I would like to point out that the Leafs haven't won in 40 years, nor have they even made it to the finals in that period. So much for being a great playoff team :roll:

They have consistently won playoff rounds despite starting in the bottom of the bracket (i.e. 'expected' to lose).

Originally posted by: JujuFish
Wrong. The Canadiens match up against the Sabres extremely well, better than most teams in that made the playoffs in the East. They've split the series with the Sabres 4-4. 5 of those games were decided by a single goal.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. The Canadians are like a not-quite-as-good Buffalo. They could win, but if both teams play their game-plan properly, Buffalo would be expected to win. The Leafs are a very different team, and one that would stand a good chance of grinding the Sabres defence into the ground by the second or third game.

While it wouldn't guarantee a series victory, there's not a team in the league (except Anaheim) with the defensive grit to really neutralize Toronto's top line down low night in and night out. Pretty well any other defensive corps is going to get worn out and make mistakes, or take penalties. It's the same reason Philly was such a solid playoff team (and especially so against the always defensively weak contemporary TO teams) for so long.

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
In fairness, I think the Habs also faced Conklin and Biron at least a couple of times during the season.

Buffalo and Montreal both played their backups twice, so that point is moot.

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

My point is that this "The Leafs are a great playoff team" idea is total nonsense, if they were such a good team they would... you know... win the Cup occasionally.

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. The Canadians are like a not-quite-as-good Buffalo. They could win, but if both teams play their game-plan properly, Buffalo would be expected to win.

Yeah, and the same would be expected if Buffalo faced Toronto.

The Leafs are a very different team, and one that would stand a good chance of grinding the Sabres defence into the ground by the second or third game.

Hey, if you want to think so, be my guest. It's fine with me that people have the illusion that our defense is small and can be worn down so easily. However, that is far from the truth.

While it wouldn't guarantee a series victory, there's not a team in the league (except Anaheim) with the defensive grit to really neutralize Toronto's top line down low night in and night out. Pretty well any other defensive corps is going to get worn out and make mistakes, or take penalties.

That's fine. One tough scoring line does not a win make. Buffalo has 4 deadly lines that Toronto would need to worry about. Same situation can't be said in reverse.

It's the same reason Philly was such a solid playoff team (and especially so against the always defensively weak contemporary TO teams) for so long.

Yeah, the same Philly team that Buffalo smoked in the playoffs last year. Their rough, stout defense did them wonders. Forsberg almost singlehandedly won their two games in that series.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: JujuFish

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. The Canadians are like a not-quite-as-good Buffalo. They could win, but if both teams play their game-plan properly, Buffalo would be expected to win.

Yeah, and the same would be expected if Buffalo faced Toronto.

The Leafs are a very different team, and one that would stand a good chance of grinding the Sabres defence into the ground by the second or third game.

Hey, if you want to think so, be my guest. It's fine with me that people have the illusion that our defense is small and can be worn down so easily. However, that is far from the truth.

While it wouldn't guarantee a series victory, there's not a team in the league (except Anaheim) with the defensive grit to really neutralize Toronto's top line down low night in and night out. Pretty well any other defensive corps is going to get worn out and make mistakes, or take penalties.

That's fine. One tough scoring line does not a win make. Buffalo has 4 deadly lines that Toronto would need to worry about. Same situation can't be said in reverse.

It's the same reason Philly was such a solid playoff team (and especially so against the always defensively weak contemporary TO teams) for so long.

Yeah, the same Philly team that Buffalo smoked in the playoffs last year. Their rough, stout defense did them wonders. Forsberg almost singlehandedly won their two games in that series.

It's nothing against Buffalo's defence. Toronto's defence would fare much worse against their own forwards. The big European line is a handful for one night - over a series, it would be murder. That's the difference between Montreal and Toronto's teams compared to Buffalo, this year. One had a decided advantage in one aspect of play, the other had nothing. Either would be an underdog, but TO winning would have been less shocking.

Philly last year was no longer the Philly of the past, I'm talking about the pre-cap teams. Philly last year was probably the team most decimated by injuries (specifically to their defence) that was still in the show. This is to say, very specifically 'NOT the same philly team that lost last year, and if you paid much attention to hockey, you would know I was talking about Philly's history of large, powerful forwards, not D-men.

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

3chordcharlie , if you think that Toronto had a chance to beat Buffalo in a 7 game series with Raycroft/Aubin in nets and Gill, Kubina, McCabe, and an injured Coliacovo on the blue line you're more deluded than I thought...

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
3chordcharlie , if you think that Toronto had a chance to beat Buffalo in a 7 game series with Raycroft/Aubin in nets and Gill, Kubina, McCabe, and an injured Coliacovo on the blue line you're more deluded than I thought...

It's Raycroft and McCabe that scare me. Colaiacovo being less than healthy makes things worse.

I'd still pick them to have a better shot than the Canadiens though.