IBM specifically (and illegally) prefers hiring H1-B workers over American citizens

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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I saw this over on Hacker News - Mr. Milano is a lawyer and software developer who in this piece reports that discrimination against Americans in favour of foreign workers does occur, and that IBM appears to lead the pack in this - and doesn't even seem to bother hiding it. Read on below to see the (anecdotal) evidence.

Center for Immigration Studies - IBM: "The Cost Difference Is Too Great for the Business Not to Look for" H-1B Workers

Let me set the stage for the e-mail chain. An American IBM employee in the United States had been working on a software development project for a customer that had recently ended. The employee needed to find another project to avoid being laid off, as it is easier to lay off people who are not working on projects.

The American IBM employee was on an internal IBM mailing list for employees who were available for a new project. The IBM employee received a timely mass e-mail through this list from IBM HR with a job description that started out:

We are urgently seeking Business Analyst resources with Test experience for two positions on the Alcatel-Lucent account (emphasis in original).

A lengthy job description and instructions on how to apply followed this introduction. (IBM uses the term "resource" throughout to refer to employees.) The job was located in the United States and the American IBM employee lived close to the project.

The American IBM employee responded to the job posting with a cover letter explaining how the employee's qualifications matched the posted job requirements, the additional information requested in the job posting, and a resume.

This is the IBM hiring manager's complete response to the American IBM employee's application (The IBM employee provided translations of acronyms that I have indicated in square brackets.):

Thank you for your interest in the eBusiness Analyst position on the Alcatel-Lucent account. We are in the process of gathering resumes for this position and will send you a follow-up response once we have had an opportunity to review your qualifications.

Please understand the clients first preference is IGSI [IBM Global Services India] landed resource, then local US candidates, then remote, so these candidates will be in the second group to be considered. (sic)

This manager was forcing Americans to get in line for jobs behind "landed resources" from IBM India. In case you are wondering — yes, this is illegal. See 8 USC § 1324B.

So how can IBM so flagrantly violate the law?

The reason IBM can get away with this disgraceful behavior is that discrimination enforcement requires a complaint. An employee considering a complaint has to weigh the probability of the government prosecuting the case and winning adequate compensation against the risk of retaliation and damage to his or her career. Many companies make severance packages contingent upon employees signing away rights to file such a complaint.

At this point, I am sure the IBM public relations folks reading this posting to formulate their response are thinking to themselves "Rogue hiring manager. IBM does not have a policy of discrimination." Read on.

The American IBM employee forwarded the e-mails to IBM HR and attached the following complaint:

You included these two positions - below - again into today's email to "Available". Per below, they are NOT looking at Americans. Pretty clear.

You would think that IBM HR, upon learning of unlawful discrimination, would disavow the actions of its hiring manager and take decisive corrective action.

Instead, IBM HR actually responded by explaining to the American employee why IBM violates the law:

There are often US Reg [U.S. Regular] seats that also have landed GR [Global Resource] seats open - sometimes the customer will take either as long as they are working onsite - - and the cost difference is too great for the business not to look for landed GRs or to use them if they are a skills match.

There you have it, straight from the IBM HR department. Foreign workers, global resources supplied by IBM India, are so cheap compared to Americans that it is worth violating the law.

IBM HR added this coda to its message to the American employee:

IBM India may not have visa-ready resources with the specific skills so many times US resources do fill the seats though

Doesn't hurt to get your resume in cosideration if that turns out to be the case. (sic)

IBM's HR statements demonstrate a number of points about the H-1B program:

  • Companies are willing to ignore available Americans even when they say they "urgently" need workers.
  • H-1B workers are cheaper than Americans — "and the cost difference is too great" for IBM not to look for foreign workers first. The H-1B statutes are designed to allow employers to legally pay H-1B workers less than Americans and IBM (and a lot of others) is taking full advantage.
  • The H-1B visa quotas are important — IBM would only hire Americans when "visa-ready resources" were not available. The quotas put in place a stopping point where employers can no longer ignore American applicants.
  • It is not just the Indian bodyshops who are H-1B abusers — Alcatel-Lucent is an H-1B abuser, telling IBM they prefer foreign workers. IBM is an abuser by giving preference to foreign workers.
  • Big companies try to hide their H-1B abuse through indirection — Alcatel-Lucent is getting its H-1B workers from IBM. IBM is getting them from IBM India. The chain goes even farther. I previously posted a blog describing recruiting agencies claiming to work for IBM India who were posting advertisements for jobs in America where only Indian H-1B holders would be considered.

Obviously, the government is not going to correct abuse at big-money companies like IBM. In the 22 years since creating the H-1B program Congress has done nothing to fix the well-known problems. The most likely corrective action will come through the legal system. This e-mail illustrates the kind of evidence that is waiting to be found in discovery at many large companies.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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IBM lost relevance 20 years ago. That said, this is still rather disturbing.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
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EX-IBMer here. Several months after i left, they outsourced my entire department to Slovakia.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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Uh, no, on the bolded.

lol you have no idea what you're talking about

IBM was king of the computer world back in the 70's and 80's during the days of the mainframe. Today they are not even close to the top of the technology companies leading the computer world. IBM could disappear and it wouldn't make any difference. The technology industry would go on without them. The same couldn't have been said years ago.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
IBM was king of the computer world back in the 70's and 80's during the days of the mainframe. Today they are not even close to the top of the technology companies leading the computer world. IBM could disappear and it wouldn't make any difference. The technology industry would go on without them. The same couldn't have been said years ago.

IBM is a much bigger, much more profitable, and much more diversified company than it was back in the 70's/80's.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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IBM is a much bigger, much more profitable, and much more diversified company than it was back in the 70's/80's.

Granted. But that doesn't make them relevant to the industry. It just means they have met the challenges of the past and of the industry itself. Like I said, they fail tomorrow, doesn't change a damn thing.
 

theevilsharpie

Platinum Member
Nov 2, 2009
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IBM was king of the computer world back in the 70's and 80's during the days of the mainframe. Today they are not even close to the top of the technology companies leading the computer world. IBM could disappear and it wouldn't make any difference. The technology industry would go on without them. The same couldn't have been said years ago.

Do you have any idea what IBM actually does?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
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Granted. But that doesn't make them relevant to the industry. It just means they have met the challenges of the past and of the industry itself. Like I said, they fail tomorrow, doesn't change a damn thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_corporations_by_market_capitalization#2012

#7 in market capitalization

They are almost 2.5 times bigger than intel in terms of market cap, is intel irrelevant?

Note: I hate IBM with a passion, being an ex-employee, but even i wouldn't say they were irrelevant.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
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Just video gaming alone:

Virtually all console gaming systems of the latest generation use microprocessors developed by IBM. The Xbox 360 contains a PowerPC tri-core processor, which was designed and produced by IBM in less than 24 months.[61] Sony's PlayStation 3 features the Cell BE microprocessor designed jointly by IBM, Toshiba, and Sony. IBM will provide the microprocessors that serve as the heart of Nintendo's new Wii U system, which will debut in 2012.[62] The new Power Architecture-based microprocessor includes IBM's latest technology in an energy-saving silicon package.[63] Nintendo's seventh-generation console, Wii, features an IBM chip codenamed Broadway. The older Nintendo GameCube utilizes the Gekko processor, also designed by IBM.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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Granted. But that doesn't make them relevant to the industry. It just means they have met the challenges of the past and of the industry itself. Like I said, they fail tomorrow, doesn't change a damn thing.

I don't think you know what IBM does...
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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Do you have any idea what IBM actually does?

Now, sure, same shit that dozens of other companies do which is exactly why they don't really matter in the grand scheme. They mainly compete in the business world, where there are plenty of players. They aren't about to step on the toes of Apple, Microsoft, and Google when it comes to the general consumer world, which is where the real money is at.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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I don't think you know what IBM does...

I don't think you understand that they don't do anything else that others are doing just as well. IBM just happens to have a more diverse plethora of applications. Other, smaller, companies do some of the same things, its just the other companies focus on just one or two of the applications that IBM does. This doesn't make IBM any more relevant.

People trying to keep telling me I don't know what I am talking about. This does't make them any more relevant. No one is directly disputing my statement that if they went away tomorrow, it would somehow be a game changer for the industry. It simply wouldn't.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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OK we've determined xBiffx doesnt know about IBM. So be it.
No one is directly disputing my statement that if they went away tomorrow, it would somehow be a game changer for the industry. It simply wouldn't.

I dont believe you understand that IBM has proprietary hardware/software footprints large enough that it would indeed be a game changer. Same as if Oracle went away.

Back to the OP. A couple of things seem conflicting:

The job was located in the United States
conflicts with:
Please understand the clients first preference is IGSI [IBM Global Services India] landed resource, then local US candidates, then remote, so these candidates will be in the second group to be considered. (sic)


Now, it appears as though the job was available to US applicants, in the US, but the preferred to fill the job in their center in India. In which case, outrage not found.

edit: fixed quotes
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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I don't think you understand that they don't do anything else that others are doing just as well. IBM just happens to have a more diverse plethora of applications. Other, smaller, companies do some of the same things, its just the other companies focus on just one or two of the applications that IBM does. This doesn't make IBM any more relevant.

People trying to keep telling me I don't know what I am talking about. This does't make them any more relevant. No one is directly disputing my statement that if they went away tomorrow, it would somehow be a game changer for the industry. It simply wouldn't.

IBM is involved in many different things. If they went away tomorrow, it wouldn't go unnoticed. It would be a huge game changer, especially for mainframe, storage (both tape and dasd), and POWER systems.

And that's just from a R+D and sales perspective. They provide service for their product lines, and vend out their service to others as well.

They're involved in much more than you or I know...
 

theevilsharpie

Platinum Member
Nov 2, 2009
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A couple of things seem conflicting:

conflicts with:Please understand the clients first preference is IGSI [IBM Global Services India] landed resource, then local US candidates, then remote, so these candidates will be in the second group to be considered. (sic)

Now, it appears as though the job was available to US applicants, in the US, but the preferred to fill the job in their center in India. In which case, outrage not found.

See bolded. Translated into English, their preference is H1-B workers from IBM's Indian division, local American workers, then remote workers.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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Back to the OP. A couple of things seem conflicting:

Please understand the clients first preference is IGSI [IBM Global Services India] landed resource, then local US candidates, then remote, so these candidates will be in the second group to be considered. (sic)

Now, it appears as though the job was available to US applicants, in the US, but the preferred to fill the job in their center in India. In which case, outrage not found.

When they say landed resource, they mean a foreign worker who has "landed" on American shores. That is supposedly their first choice.
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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See bolded. Translated into English, their preference is H1-B workers from IBM's Indian division, local American workers, then remote workers.

I interprate remote workers to mean those who dont live near a center (whatever center theyre hiring for) and can work remotely. IBM has centers in India as well as the US, as Im sure you know. And both centers presumably help customers from all over the globe. Im still reading it as they would rather fill the position first in their India center (thus they said "[IBM Global Services India]", second choice would be fill the position in one of their American centers, and third as Ive explained above.

*shrug*
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
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It is fun watching xbiffx try and explain how IBM, a company with a market cap EQUAL TO MICROSOFT and with the second most employees of any firm in the US is "not relevant". And he keeps on defending this.

Look I get it, none of us have had an IBM PC since the 90's and that is all you know of tech so you kind of just forgot about the company, but damn please realize when you have lost an argument.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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It is fun watching xbiffx try and explain how IBM, a company with a market cap EQUAL TO MICROSOFT and with the second most employees of any firm in the US is "not relevant". And he keeps on defending this.

Look I get it, none of us have had an IBM PC since the 90's and that is all you know of tech so you kind of just forgot about the company, but damn please realize when you have lost an argument.

Its funny watching people use capitalization to somehow explain that won't be missed if they went away tomorrow. One has nothing to do with the other. IBM simply has diversified because they learned a giant lesson nearly 20 years ago. In doing this, IBM has increased their competitors 10 fold. For everything they do, there are multiple companies that can do it, and do it just as well.

This has nothing to do with PC's. They simply don't provide, create, or innovate something or somewhere that other companies can do it just as well. IBM just does it in many more areas that smaller companies who specialize and focus on one sector.

To get back to the OP. IBM is able to do many things, try many tactics that other companies can't even begin to attempt. Its partially because it doesn't matter what they do. They can't compete with many other players in the industry so who cares.

You aren't going to see Apple, Google, or Microsoft try anything like this anytime soon. Those companies rely on the best and the brightest in the industry and that is what they focus on when it comes to recruiting talent.
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Its funny watching people use capitalization to somehow explain that won't be missed if they went away tomorrow. One has nothing to do with the other. IBM simply has diversified because they learned a giant lesson nearly 20 years ago. In doing this, IBM has increased their competitors 10 fold. For everything they do, there are multiple companies that can do it, and do it just as well.

This has nothing to do with PC's. They simply don't provide, create, or innovate something or somewhere that other companies can do it just as well. IBM just does it in many more areas that smaller companies who specialize and focus on one sector.

To get back to the OP. IBM is able to do many things, try many tactics that other companies can't even begin to attempt. Its partially because it doesn't matter what they do. They can't compete with many other players in the industry so who cares.

You aren't going to see Apple, Google, or Microsoft try anything like this anytime soon. Those companies rely on the best and the brightest in the industry and that is what they focus on when it comes to recruiting talent.

Why not? There are other search engines out there...other OS makers...sure they could. It would have minimal impact if any of those close :rolleyes:
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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Why not? There are other search engines out there...other OS makers...sure they could. It would have minimal impact if any of those close :rolleyes:

At least you are starting to see how it doesn't matter what IBM does.

Saying IBM is relevant and matters is like saying Target matters in the retail store industry. Again, Target goes away, big effing deal. Its irrelevant to the industry what Target does.

But somehow everyone in here seems to think they are so much smarter because they seems to know more about what IBM does so therefore IBM matters. At the same time demonstrating nothing of their knowledge of IBM. Its quite comical.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
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At least you are starting to see how it doesn't matter what IBM does.

Saying IBM is relevant and matters is like saying Target matters in the retail store industry. Again, Target goes away, big effing deal. Its irrelevant to the industry what Target does.
Now Target isn't relevant? What's next Toyota doesnt matter either or coca cola because both can be replaced?