I wasn't freaking out about Ebola until the Dallas woman

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Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
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pretty much... urban sprawl, tons of "little mexicos" everywhere, endless low budget housing complexes surrounding the downtown area...

there's two main hospitals in the immediate downtown area, presby (for poor people) and medical city Dallas (for rich people/people with insurance), there's also Baylor medical center, but it's more for longer term stuff and surgeries..

ebola patient one is in presby, the man who came off the flight from Liberia....and now ebola patient 2, who was the child that was living in the apartment that is now "quarantined" APARTMENT COMPLEX (low budget housing, that they had i think something like 9 people living in?)...the kid that also went to school in the following days after patient 1 was admitted to presby...



TexasHealth Presby is closer to 635 than down town. As for it being for the poor, it is where GWBush has had operations.

Downtown has UT Southwestern, Parkland(where the truely poor go as its a county hospital), Baylor(several Baylors including the big one).

I live in downtown Dallas. I saw more homeless on the street when I lived in Lubbock.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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I think the argument is without insurance not only do they not go to the doctor when they have symptoms, they won't go until the symptoms are so bad an ambulance is required. This is due to the crippling cost of healthcare and increases the time they out in public and infectious.

I'd also add that for low income workers there are generally no sick days available and even for well paid employees an environment that frowns on missing work.

In countries with socialized medicine and required sick days, low income and high income employees would be more willing to take the time to visit the doctor at the first sign of symptoms reducing the time they are in public and infectious.


That fearmongering already been tried and failed. If the difference between systems really mattered the 2009 flu pandemic would have the US looking terrible compared to other nations and we actually came out very good, and flu is far more contagious. Reality does not bear out his contention. What we have in this nation is an abundance of resources and expertise to deal with crisis which I believe to be unequalled anywhere. That's the significant and relevant advantage we enjoy. "Never fail to take advantage of a crisis was never more true here.
 

doubledeluxe

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Oct 1, 2014
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I lived in Europe and you were forbidden from going to work for two days after getting things like the stomach flu. In the states many risk their jobs or simply can't afford to take time off

In a real pandemic crisis I think it could make a big difference. Surely a model on thus scenario has been done. How did it pan out?
 

massmedia

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Oct 1, 2014
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That fearmongering already been tried and failed. If the difference between systems really mattered the 2009 flu pandemic would have the US looking terrible compared to other nations and we actually came out very good, and flu is far more contagious. Reality does not bear out his contention. What we have in this nation is an abundance of resources and expertise to deal with crisis which I believe to be unequalled anywhere. That's the significant and relevant advantage we enjoy. "Never fail to take advantage of a crisis was never more true here.

Not trying to provoke but...

The 2009 flu virus was actually quite mild in terms of killing people. Before we knew how bad the virus was going to be there was a lot of concern that it might be a big killer... but about mid-way through the flu season it was quite clear that the virus wasn't the nightmare that it was feared that it might be. Knowing this, it is not surprising that the world in general came out "very good" during that flu season. Just a cursory glance at the chart below makes this point pretty clear.

Percentage of all deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I), by week and year --- 122 Cities Mortality Reporting System, United States, 2005--2010
m5929a2f4.gif

Alternate Text: The figure above shows the percentage of all deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I), by week and year in the United States from 2005-2010, with 122 cities reporting to the Mortality Reporting System. During the 2009-10 influenza season, the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) exceeded the epidemic threshold for 13 consecutive weeks, from October 3 to December 26, 2009, and from January 16 to January 30, 2010.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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I lived in Europe and you were forbidden from going to work for two days after getting things like the stomach flu. In the states many risk their jobs or simply can't afford to take time off

In a real pandemic crisis I think it could make a big difference. Surely a model on thus scenario has been done. How did it pan out?

I gave you an example of a real pandemic. Generally Europe fared worse.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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Not trying to provoke but...

The 2009 flu virus was actually quite mild in terms of killing people. Before we knew how bad the virus was going to be there was a lot of concern that it might be a big killer... but about mid-way through the flu season it was quite clear that the virus wasn't the nightmare that it was feared that it might be. Knowing this, it is not surprising that the world in general came out "very good" during that flu season. Just a cursory glance at the chart below makes this point pretty clear.

Percentage of all deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I), by week and year --- 122 Cities Mortality Reporting System, United States, 2005--2010
m5929a2f4.gif

Alternate Text: The figure above shows the percentage of all deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I), by week and year in the United States from 2005-2010, with 122 cities reporting to the Mortality Reporting System. During the 2009-10 influenza season, the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) exceeded the epidemic threshold for 13 consecutive weeks, from October 3 to December 26, 2009, and from January 16 to January 30, 2010.


The mortality rate of a given organism is not the same as it's rate of transmission. If the conditions in the US were so awful the flu would have spread to a greater extent. It did not. We did take actions which reduced the effects of the pandemic and it worked. My point is that linking transmission to agenda is crappy science and here we have a concrete example of the sky not falling.
 

massmedia

Senior member
Oct 1, 2014
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The mortality rate of a given organism is not the same as it's rate of transmission. If the conditions in the US were so awful the flu would have spread to a greater extent. It did not. We did take actions which reduced the effects of the pandemic and it worked. My point is that linking transmission to agenda is crappy science and here we have a concrete example of the sky not falling.

That is correct, the mortality rate of a given organism is not the same thing as it's rate of transmission.

I wasn't aware that the rate of transmission of the flu was different in the US than in Europe or other parts of the world, interesting if it is true.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "linking transmission to agenda".

Ebola doesn't have an agenda. Who has an agenda?
The media does seem to have an agenda with the great efforts being made in virtually every story to obscure the fact that Ebola can be spread through the air even though it is not an airborne virus.

Assuming the media is not just ignorant, there seems to be some misdirection going in stories that focus on the need for the virus to mutate in order to become airborne. This story topic "mutation to go airborne" is a lot like waving something shiny in one hand to keep people from looking at what's in the other hand. In this case what's in the other hand is the fact that Ebola can and already does travel "through the air" albeit in tiny droplets of saliva that are produced when an ebola person with ebola-containing saliva coughs or sneezes. The misdirection is effort to get people to focus on mutation and then dispelling the likelihood of mutation producing an airborne virus. This leads people to the false sense of security that Ebola cannot move through the air from one person's mouth (via a cough) to the mouth of other people in the vicinity of the cough. You don't need a degree in virology or molecular biology or immunology to understand this because all that is at play here is physics.

The only question is how much virus is in the saliva and how much virus needs to be passed on in order to establish an infection. My guess is that this is not well understood with Ebola but if anyone knows of this data I'd be interested to read on it.

Yes there does seem to be an agenda based around obsessively focusing on keeping people calm. There's been lots of goal post shifting in the media and official comments from govt. agencies.

From "this will never get out of Africa" to "Europe may have some cases but not in the US" to "it may come to the US" to "it's in the US but everything is under control".

Well whomever is in charge down in Texas certainly doesn't know what they are doing. The pressure washing of ebola vomit from the sidewalk was outrageously and unforgivably a stupid move ordered by someone who clearly doesn't understand what they are doing. Pressure washers produce tremendous forces, water and target matter splash all over the place and nobody who had things "under control" would ever order such an asinine activity with standard biohazard material much less Ebola-laced-vomit. Complete retards to be honest. Not "under control" by a long shot.

Actually that pressure washing fiasco was so stupid it's borderline hilarious.
 

steppinthrax

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2006
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Not trying to provoke but...

The 2009 flu virus was actually quite mild in terms of killing people. Before we knew how bad the virus was going to be there was a lot of concern that it might be a big killer... but about mid-way through the flu season it was quite clear that the virus wasn't the nightmare that it was feared that it might be. Knowing this, it is not surprising that the world in general came out "very good" during that flu season. Just a cursory glance at the chart below makes this point pretty clear.

Percentage of all deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I), by week and year --- 122 Cities Mortality Reporting System, United States, 2005--2010
m5929a2f4.gif

Alternate Text: The figure above shows the percentage of all deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I), by week and year in the United States from 2005-2010, with 122 cities reporting to the Mortality Reporting System. During the 2009-10 influenza season, the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) exceeded the epidemic threshold for 13 consecutive weeks, from October 3 to December 26, 2009, and from January 16 to January 30, 2010.

I think in terms of a flu many people didn't feel threatened by it. Honestly when I heard about the 2009 flu I didn't really care. I had this concept that it was just a really bad normal flu or only old people or those who were fucked to began with die from that.

I think when people think of Ebola they think of outbreak movies, projectile bloody vomit, and Aliens popping out of people's chest...
 

steppinthrax

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2006
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Just and update,

-An anonymous donor gave the Texas woman a home in a gated community. Me thinking that's nice (whoever did that). Me thinking that person probably knew the state of Texas is probably so fucked they probably would let her stay in that apt and rot for months...

-The other half (Duncan) was downgraded to critical condition....
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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That is correct, the mortality rate of a given organism is not the same thing as it's rate of transmission.

I wasn't aware that the rate of transmission of the flu was different in the US than in Europe or other parts of the world, interesting if it is true.

I think we must have been talking about two different issues, so I'll explain myself. There have been a few people who have been pushing an agenda about health care systems. To make their point of how ours is so inferior they bring up Europe and how we must fear (and that's what irks me) because we aren't as good as they are. Rick Perry will be the cause of a mass plague, I kid you not. Well there are aspects of other health care systems which have advantages, however like ebola the complexities and subtleties of the subject elude them. That does not mean they won't try anyway. When you showed the severity of the illness after I had responded to another I mistakenly assumed you were trying to make their case because that's something I would expect from the "usual suspects" as I think of them.

Anyway, to be clear their point was that since we're so bad compared to virtually every other first world nation we're doomed to have a higher incidence of disease. That was an argument they should have not tried because a cursory examination of the 2009 pandemic shows a higher incidence of infection than the US, and if ebola was bound to spread because we're so bad then a disease that's far more likely spread should have done so and by a startling difference. To the contrary we fared better than most and that's because the factors which influence transmission do not conform to their political sensibilities. I greatly dislike using fear to promote an agenda. As far as the relatively low mortality rate there are a variety of possible reasons, including such things as having immunized a large portion of those who were at the greatest risk as well as the differences in the state of medicine and awareness of the issue. It's an interesting subject all on it's own and I admit I haven't followed all the strings to tie them up.
 

massmedia

Senior member
Oct 1, 2014
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ahh...

well I wouldn't expect the US to be worse off than Europe with regards to Ebola at all. Actually I'm impressed with how they've managed to track down the potential contacts in Texas.

I am concerned about how well this will scale if multiple patients show up at once in multiple hospitals.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Just to keep things in perspective we still have exactly one confirmed case of Ebola in the US.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
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US gov. "everything is under control"

US Nurses "we are unprepared and untrained"


As posted in one of the other thousand threads, stupid survey is stupid. Standard operating procedures in regard to infection control for this type of virus are sufficient for Ebola. There doesn't need to be a "special system" set up. Whether or not these facilities are APPROPRIATELY following currently established guidelines is another story. It seems, by survey, that nurses are just as susceptible to FUD as our forum members.
 

massmedia

Senior member
Oct 1, 2014
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As posted in one of the other thousand threads, stupid survey is stupid. Standard operating procedures in regard to infection control for this type of virus are sufficient for Ebola. There doesn't need to be a "special system" set up. Whether or not these facilities are APPROPRIATELY following currently established guidelines is another story. It seems, by survey, that nurses are just as susceptible to FUD as our forum members.

it matters not if the "SOPs for infection control are sufficient for Ebola".
what matters is that the front line workers (nurses) are unsure of how to handle Ebola patients. Just because some people know what to do (you for example) is irrelevant to the thousands of nurses who are unsure of how to handle a potential Ebola patient.

until the protocol is crystal clear for front line workers (this should include paramedics as well - probably a different protocol for them) the US won't be prepared... even though you personally know what to do.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
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it matters not if the "SOPs for infection control are sufficient for Ebola".
what matters is that the front line workers (nurses) are unsure of how to handle Ebola patients. Just because some people know what to do (you for example) is irrelevant to the thousands of nurses who are unsure of how to handle a potential Ebola patient.

until the protocol is crystal clear for front line workers (this should include paramedics as well - probably a different protocol for them) the US won't be prepared... even though you personally know what to do.

I can understand the argument, to a certain extent, that they want something specifically for Ebola, but they really do have things already set for Ebola. My guess would be droplet precautions, but they might go to airborne (not that Ebola is) because it is that much more strict when dealing with an infectious disease.
 

doubledeluxe

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Oct 1, 2014
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Thanks for using a real example. HOWEVER I had never even heard of the Bird flu as being a pandemic. In fact it was a complete non-issue. Ebola is a different animal since it doesn't just affect the old and sick. During the 2009 outbreak I was travelling a lot so I got the H1N1 vaccine and only met one person who got sick. This is anecdotal and the same stupid anecdotal argument could be made with Ebola but I think my fear is simply that when we really do get a bad virus shit has a better chance to hit the fan in the US than in Europe. I oculd be wrong.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
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it matters not if the "SOPs for infection control are sufficient for Ebola".
what matters is that the front line workers (nurses) are unsure of how to handle Ebola patients. Just because some people know what to do (you for example) is irrelevant to the thousands of nurses who are unsure of how to handle a potential Ebola patient.

until the protocol is crystal clear for front line workers (this should include paramedics as well - probably a different protocol for them) the US won't be prepared... even though you personally know what to do.

Not true. As long as the patient is appropriately placed in droplet precautions (as ordered by well, whomever, whether triage nurse/physician picks it up, or another physician) it doesn't matter what the ailment is. Droplet is droplet. There's no "ebola specific" knowledge necessary. The survey makes it seems as if nurses are lacking some intensive training necessary to combat this scourge - simply not true. Ebola patients get droplet precautions - end of education.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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Just to keep things in perspective we still have exactly one confirmed case of Ebola in the US.
For a bit more perspective.

There have been 3500 (ish) deaths globally for ebola this year so far.

In the USA alone flu kills about 35000 people a year.