I was considering a mac pro until...

[themisfit610]

Originally posted by: taltamir
MacOSX is the most expensive OS ever. Because it has DRM preventing it from installing on any hardware, so apple jacks the price on the hardware sky high.

Your obersvation is correct and many other people have seen it. Apple just charges hundreds of percent premium for certain parts. The CPU and stuff are soldered to the motherboard so you can upgrade as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. and there is a good chance upgrading your ram yourself voids your warranty (not sure about that one, but I wouldn't doubt it)... heck you can't even replace the BATTERY on an ipod.

Apple rips you off. Thats the bottom line. This is probably why people cracked the DRM on MacOSX which allows them to install it on any X86 (or x86_64bit) machine. The problem with that is that it is illegal in the USA. But depending on your country, it might be legal for you to bypass said DRM and install your legally purchased macosX on non apple hardware.

Otherwise just buy a PC.

Lol...

A lot of FUD man, you've clearly not used a lot of intel macs. It's really quite simple

1) Yes, apple overcharges for upgrades to their base configurations. Excessively so in most cases.

2) Adding 3rd party hardware is _no_ big deal. RAM, hard drives, even processors can be changed on the MacPro. Before they had an official octo-core machine, people were putting engineering sample quad core Xeons in there, and guess what - it worked fine. Apple does not solder processors to the mainboards.

3) The "DRM" you refer to doesn't really do anything... All it does is detect the presence of real Apple hardware, to handshake with OS X so you can install it. Apple doesn't keep you from installing software, uninstalling software, or downloading things. It's not DRM at all. Windows Media DRM is true DRM.

4) Upgrading most hardware on a mac does not void the warranty. Changing processors - yeah that would. Basic stuff like RAM, hard drives, video cards, other expansion cards - no problem! If you have to send the mac in for service, take it all out and return the machine to factory configuration! How hard is that?

5) Just go ahead and try to build an octo-core workstation that matches the MacPro's baseline specs. You will spend so much more than Apple charges you. It's like they give you one of the (Very expensive) processors for free.

I don't own a Mac, I build and own PCs and love them. End of story. I have spent a lot of time working with Macs, and the Intel machines are very solid pieces of hardware. Yes, they're usually expensive (mac pro is really the exception for what you get, as I said), yes you cant upgrade everything, but they're perfectly solid computers.

Quit spreading FUD. Don't buy one if you don't want / need one. They sure do overcharge for their consumer grade stuff!

And finally to get back to the OPs comments - FB-DIMMs are sucky. They're expensive, slow, hot, and power hungry. However, they're necessary to stuff a machine with 32 GB of RAM. Believe me, that RAM comes in handy when you're accessing massive files on Photoshop. I know Photoshop is a 32 bit application, but in OS X, it's smart enough to create its own RAM disk to store page files on. No machine (for the price of a manually loaded-up Mac Pro) can beat it at Photoshop. Hell of a machine. I'd love to own one. Oh yeah, and it can run Windows too lol...

~MiSfit

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: themisfit610

Originally posted by: taltamir
MacOSX is the most expensive OS ever. Because it has DRM preventing it from installing on any hardware, so apple jacks the price on the hardware sky high.

Your obersvation is correct and many other people have seen it. Apple just charges hundreds of percent premium for certain parts. The CPU and stuff are soldered to the motherboard so you can upgrade as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. and there is a good chance upgrading your ram yourself voids your warranty (not sure about that one, but I wouldn't doubt it)... heck you can't even replace the BATTERY on an ipod.

Apple rips you off. Thats the bottom line. This is probably why people cracked the DRM on MacOSX which allows them to install it on any X86 (or x86_64bit) machine. The problem with that is that it is illegal in the USA. But depending on your country, it might be legal for you to bypass said DRM and install your legally purchased macosX on non apple hardware.

Otherwise just buy a PC.

Lol...

A lot of FUD man, you've clearly not used a lot of intel macs. It's really quite simple

1) Yes, apple overcharges for upgrades to their base configurations. Excessively so in most cases.

2) Adding 3rd party hardware is _no_ big deal. RAM, hard drives, even processors can be changed on the MacPro. Before they had an official octo-core machine, people were putting engineering sample quad core Xeons in there, and guess what - it worked fine. Apple does not solder processors to the mainboards.

3) The "DRM" you refer to doesn't really do anything... All it does is detect the presence of real Apple hardware, to handshake with OS X so you can install it. Apple doesn't keep you from installing software, uninstalling software, or downloading things. It's not DRM at all. Windows Media DRM is true DRM.

4) Upgrading most hardware on a mac does not void the warranty. Changing processors - yeah that would. Basic stuff like RAM, hard drives, video cards, other expansion cards - no problem! If you have to send the mac in for service, take it all out and return the machine to factory configuration! How hard is that?

5) Just go ahead and try to build an octo-core workstation that matches the MacPro's baseline specs. You will spend so much more than Apple charges you. It's like they give you one of the (Very expensive) processors for free.

I don't own a Mac, I build and own PCs and love them. End of story. I have spent a lot of time working with Macs, and the Intel machines are very solid pieces of hardware. Yes, they're usually expensive (mac pro is really the exception for what you get, as I said), yes you cant upgrade everything, but they're perfectly solid computers.

Quit spreading FUD. Don't buy one if you don't want / need one. They sure do overcharge for their consumer grade stuff!

And finally to get back to the OPs comments - FB-DIMMs are sucky. They're expensive, slow, hot, and power hungry. However, they're necessary to stuff a machine with 32 GB of RAM. Believe me, that RAM comes in handy when you're accessing massive files on Photoshop. I know Photoshop is a 32 bit application, but in OS X, it's smart enough to create its own RAM disk to store page files on. No machine (for the price of a manually loaded-up Mac Pro) can beat it at Photoshop. Hell of a machine. I'd love to own one. Oh yeah, and it can run Windows too lol...

~MiSfit

So let me see if I get it straight... you call it a lot of fud and then..
1. You agree with me on that point (then why mention it in the fud?)

2. You restate what I said about 3rd party hardware being identical as a point on upgrade ability as if it actually counters anything I said. And tell me CPUs aren't soldered on (they aren't on a TOWER, they ARE on a laptop! but also on some PC laptops as well. This is a manufacturer issue, not a Mac vs PC... macs are just a type of PC anyways). Anyways, I mistakingly thought of the MacBOOK pro. Not the Mac Pro. The Macbook, being a laptop from apple, has soldered on CPUs.

3. There is absolutely NO COMPARISON WHATSOEVER between WMP DRM and the OS DRM I mentioned in apple.
The apple DRM checks for a chip that exists on mac's motherboards. Thats the only part that is different in a mac. If the chip is not there, macos wouldn't install or run. Forcing you to buy all hardware from apple, which is priced higher then any other company, thus making MACOS ITSELF more expensive through indirect costs. Its like if you bought a 30$ printer that uses a 70$ ink cartridge (that costs 15$ to make) vs a 100$ printer with a 30$ ink cartridge (that ALSO costs 15$ to make)... Or buying a console for below cost, but having game makers pay royalties to the console manufacturers. Its hidden costs.

The windows media DRM is no different then the apple itunes DRM. and has nothing to do with the OS. Its DRM for music purchased from MS or from Apple. I am talking about DRM preventing THE OS FROM INSTALLING.
PS. I never mentioned any SOFTWARE that cannot install because of DRM on a mac.

Let me make a simple chart for you to understand:
Linux = no DRM
Windows = DRM on music bought from MS.
Apple = DRM on motherboards to prevent OS install + DRM on music bought from apple.

4. That has already been established. Over and over and over again.Yes, I get it, my sentiment that "it wouldn't surprise me if they voided your warranty for upgrading hardware, make sure to check on it before upgrading" is incorrect because there is a law preventing it. (can a statement that says "It might or might not" even BE incorrect?) If you call THAT fud then you don't know what fud means.

5. maybe later. I really don't have the time right now to hunt it down, how about you show me the opposite?

 

[themisfit610]

5) Easy as pie. You might get +/- a couple hundred bucks from some other vendor, but this is serious.

HP xw8600 Workstation
Specs:
2x 2.8 GHz Quad Core Xeon Processors
2 GB FB-DIMM
250GB HD
Basic Quadro card (cheap)
comparable chassis + power supply.
Vista 32 bit + XP Downgrade
$4835

Dell can build a similar system for about 4 grand, and they throw in a 19" LCD.

The MacPro with the same specs, and a tad bit more storage from apple:
$2800. Wow. And there's more PCIe slots too

4) OK OK, I didn't read the whole thread. Retracted.

3) Very true. I wouldn't really call the TPM chip DRM. As to your chart:
Linux = no DRM
yep

Windows = DRM on music bought from MS.
Yep, but music purchasing doesn't really have anything to do with the operating system.

Apple = DRM on motherboards to prevent OS install + DRM on music bought from apple.
The TPM chip _allows_ the OS install. I don't like it any more than you do. You're correct about the music DRM, but again, that doesn't really apply.

Look at the TPM chip from Apple's perspective though.. Before they made the Intel switch, they had their own hardware platform. Really. Their variant of PowerPC wasn't like anything else out there, so there was literally no way to make Mac OS X run on other platforms. That was their hardware "DRM" if you will. Now, they make a switch to the x86 world. Apple could not exist if they allowed Mac OS X to be freely purchased and installed on any desktop computer. They simply would not make money, and they wouldn't be able to guarantee a user experience - since they wouldn't know exactly what hardware their operating system is interacting with. Their business model is integrated. Hardware comes with software. They ship drivers for all the main components built into the OS and software updates.

It's silly I know that the TPM (and the whole EFI thing and some other assorted bits) is all that really separates a Mac from a PC these days, but that's how it has to be. Otherwise, no Apple.

2) Yes, CPUs are soldered on in laptops, from what I know. Even if they weren't you wouldn't be able to upgrade them anyway. Show me an x86 laptop you can safely make a significant processor upgrade on without worrying about power and thermal issues. Laptops are very closed platforms. I've done some small upgrades - like a P4 2.4 to 2.6, but anything worthwhile usually means you need more power, more heat dissipation, or a new motherboard, or all. That's laptops for you

1) Yeah I do call what you're saying FUD. You're painting the whole Mac platform as a closed, hideously expensive, restrictive thing, when that's really not true. Their laptops (and the iMac, which is a glorified laptop) are closed, but not more so than any other large OEM like Dell or HP. Their big boy desktop (which is what the OP was talking about in the first place) is a hell of a machine that's anything but restrictive and closed. It also gives you more for your money than any other dual socket workstation out there.

/thread

~MiSfit

 

[taltamir]

I don't know about apple not existing. If apple didn't do the TPM chip thing then I would have told MOST people i know who are computer illiterate and don't play games (my parents, and almost every one of my customers who are over 40) to buy and install macos on their x86 PC... or sell them an x86 pc I built cheaply with macos on it... no viruses and so much less crap to deal with...
Apple would sell MORE units, but it will then be in direct competition with MS, and it will make LESS money on every unit sold (since its hardware sales will plummet).

MS would get their act together, get rid of all their anti piracy stuff (so that any 40 year old could just install it on multiple computers using a recovery disk without any knowledge), and suddenly all those problems with windows people wail about for years would be solved and apple could be crushed.

Right now they are good in their role of "maintain a nitch market milking tons of money from a very small percentage of people without directly opposing microsoft but providing an alternative that is beneficial to MS due to legal monopoly reasons"

5. Yea it was kinda of silly of me to ask you to prove it.. In retrospect, while apple really rips people off, there is always gonna be someone who rips you off MORE. and sometimes apple DOES make a product that is reasonably priced... So I did go far to far on that statement.
Apple still overcharges usually and it is done to augment the "low" cost of the OS.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: taltamir
I don't know about apple not existing. If apple didn't do the TPM chip thing then I would have told MOST people i know who are computer illiterate and don't play games (my parents, and almost every one of my customers who are over 40) to buy and install macos on their x86 PC... or sell them an x86 pc I built cheaply with macos on it... no viruses and so much less crap to deal with...

A tiny and fast Mac mini is $599, or $500 if you can find a referb. That won't break the bank, and it will all work together, not be illegal, and updates will work perfectly on it. That is Apple's entry level machine.

Apple would sell MORE units, but it will then be in direct competition with MS, and it will make LESS money on every unit sold (since its hardware sales will plummet).

In other words, disaster for Apple.

MS would get their act together, get rid of all their anti piracy stuff (so that any 40 year old could just install it on multiple computers using a recovery disk without any knowledge), and suddenly all those problems with windows people wail about for years would be solved and apple could be crushed.

Huh?

Right now they are good in their role of "maintain a nitch market milking tons of money from a very small percentage of people without directly opposing microsoft but providing an alternative that is beneficial to MS due to legal monopoly reasons"

5. Yea it was kinda of silly of me to ask you to prove it.. In retrospect, while apple really rips people off, there is always gonna be someone who rips you off MORE. and sometimes apple DOES make a product that is reasonably priced... So I did go far to far on that statement.
Apple still overcharges usually and it is done to augment the "low" cost of the OS.

Low cost of the OS? Every OS X DVD that sells for $129 is just an upgrade license. How is that a low cost? Is anyone here suggesting Apple's stuff is cheap? The Mac Experience *works*.

 

[themisfit610]

Every OS X DVD that sells for $129 is just an upgrade license

Not true! You can buy 10.4 PPC discs that will install on a machine as old as a "Pismo" 300 MHz Power Book G3. These machines shipped with 8.5 originally IIRC, so 10.4 is definitely not an upgrade, but a whole new OS

~MiSfit

 

[taltamir]

Microsoft knows that without piracy its control of the market (and the associated benefits) will SHATTER. This is why they REMOVED the WGA check from IE7... while cracked versions of IE7 for XP were available, you had to have at least rudementry knowledge. With it removed more people could easily install it, thus expanding the rapidly dwindling browser marketshare MS controls (Which allows them to extort other companies for further profits, WHQL for example is microsoft's biggest extortion scheme).

And the Mac Mini is a peice of crap. Yes, you don't need much to surf the web... but its nice when the web isn't SLOW when surfed.

Can it even decode an x264 mkv file at real time? (not a blu-ray disk, a file...)

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: themisfit610

Every OS X DVD that sells for $129 is just an upgrade license

Not true! You can buy 10.4 PPC discs that will install on a machine as old as a "Pismo" 300 MHz Power Book G3. These machines shipped with 8.5 originally IIRC, so 10.4 is definitely not an upgrade, but a whole new OS

~MiSfit

...which is an upgrade from MacOS 8.5. Hence it's an upgrade license.

MUCH LATER EDIT @ 7:15 CST: The point I'm making is just that Apple can count on every Mac to have a version of MacOS (whatever version) on it, hence every MacOS license they sell for a more recent copy is just a version upgrade.

MS can't say that.

 

[taltamir]

true, with MS the upgrade license is at least for MAJOR revisions like XP to vista or 2000 to XP or 98 to 2k...
With apple its minor stuff like 10.3 to 10.4... 129$ per micro upgrade. MS calles them service packs and gives them out for free.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: taltamir
And the Mac Mini is a peice of crap. Yes, you don't need much to surf the web... but its nice when the web isn't SLOW when surfed.

Can it even decode an x264 mkv file at real time? (not a blu-ray disk, a file...)

In other words, you've never used one. Thanks for proving it.

It surfs the web perfectly - the only difference is with 3D games; if you don't need 3D games (or Motion and a few other 3D apps) there's little point to buying much more. C'mon - be serious! You keep losing more and more credibility here.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: taltamir
true, with MS the upgrade license is at least for MAJOR revisions like XP to vista or 2000 to XP or 98 to 2k...
With apple its minor stuff like 10.3 to 10.4... 129$ per micro upgrade. MS calles them service packs and gives them out for free.

Really?

What functionality do I gain going from Vista to Vista SP1?

From XP SP2 to XP SP3?

 

[taltamir]

dclive... I see a HUGE difference in speed on web application between an X2 2ghz and an e8400 3ghz... And last I cheked the mac mini was slower then then x2 2ghz... Try a "sort by name" on a 1000 bookmark folder in firefox, or several pages at once. Or even just how many seconds it takes to load an intensive single page.

For 600$ I can get A LOT more computer if I go with the PC route. Yes it is "good enough", but there are much MUCH better deals out there.

Originally posted by: dclive

Originally posted by: taltamir
true, with MS the upgrade license is at least for MAJOR revisions like XP to vista or 2000 to XP or 98 to 2k...
With apple its minor stuff like 10.3 to 10.4... 129$ per micro upgrade. MS calles them service packs and gives them out for free.

Really?

What functionality do I gain going from Vista to Vista SP1?

From XP SP2 to XP SP3?

http://www.microsoft.com/downl...6247CB3&displaylang=en

 

[dclive]

When you claim a Mac mini only slowly surfs the web, you look silly.

You look silly right now, with or without contrived examples.

 

[themisfit610]

Who cares It runs Mac OS, and does most everyday tasks just fine. A 1.8 GHz Core 2 Duo is at least as good as a 3 GHz Pentium 4. Toss in 2 GB of RAM and a small LCD screen and you've got a great web / music / photo / DVD machine. That's all it was ever made to be.

If you're sorting 1000 bookmarks all the time, and worrying about how long it takes, you are _clearly_ not the target customer for the mac mini!

And for the record, the mac mini is capable of playing 720p H.264 or even low bitrate 1080p, provided you use VLC or MPlayer. QuickTime is slow as shite, no matter how much horsepower you have.

I used a Mac Mini connected via DVI to a 1080p LCD and played 1080i MPEG-2 (with realtime bob deinterlacing to 1080p @ 60fps) for digital signage for awhile. The thing ran like a champ. They're pretty sweet little machines to be honest.

Not useful for gaming - that's for sure! But neither is a MacBook. Or any entry level PC for that matter!

~MiSfit

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: themisfit610
Who cares It runs Mac OS, and does most everyday tasks just fine. A 1.8 GHz Core 2 Duo is at least as good as a 3 GHz Pentium 4. Toss in 2 GB of RAM and a small LCD screen and you've got a great web / music / photo / DVD machine. That's all it was ever made to be.

~MiSfit

Ha...
http://store.apple.com/1-800-M...21rqnTjTHiCdn6t/2.?p=0
950$ for a mac mini with 2GB of ram, 2ghz processor, and a "super drive" (30$ on newegg).
That is for one that comes WITHOUT:
1. Monitor
2. Speakers
3. Keyboard
4. Mouse.

I didn't include those cause mack charges 130$ for the mouse and keyboard and 600$ for a simple LCD monitor...

 

[dclive]

Please put together a dead-silent, fully warrantied (by a recognized, international vendor, not some random schmuck PC builder) Windows box with Windows Vista Ultimate, with 2GB/2Ghz C2D, Superdrive, and a size of 6.5" by 6.5" by 4" or smaller, for under $950. Feel free to leave off the mouse, keyboard, screen, and speakers.

Hint: Shuttle can't do it.

I eagerly await your reply.

 

[themisfit610]

dclive has a good point there.

For that cost, obviously you don't want to buy one fully loaded.

I don't like how they force you to buy the 2GHz model if you want a DVDRW, but most folks never use them anyway, so...

Mini 1.8 = $599
2 GB DDR2 667 SODIMM = $35
Key / Mouse = $20
Speakers = $20
19" LCD = $175

$850 total. It's a lot more than $599 no doubt about it, but it's still the cheapest mac you can buy. And its a lot smaller than any PC you can buy - which means a lot to some people.
I'd never buy one - don't get me wrong I've just used them in the workplace and enjoy them for what they are.

Also, a lot of people who would be interested in a Mac Mini probably have extra key / mouse / monitors lying around. Or a KVM.

You're totally correct that you can build an equivalent PC for a whole lot less. But this is a mac.

We're so off topic at this point that this has degraded into a standard issue mac vs pc thread. Maybe we can just agree that we both like PCs, but that consumer grade macs have their place in the market with people who don't mind paying more for the Mac OS and an integrated platform. Add that the Mac Pro is a seriously competitive machine from a cost perspective.

For the record, I just tried to build a sort of equivalent system with parts off Newegg... and I was able to get pretty darn close for about $3k. Not as many PCIe slots though, and I'm not entirely sure the PC P&C 750W PSU was the right type for the dual s771 board. They're picky I hear.

~MiSfit

 

[taltamir]

Hi, I didn't want any of that miniaturization. You were the one who said the mac mini makes a good "budget computer". I countered with it giving you half as much for the money, or costing twice as much BECAUSE it is so small. so don't go telling me I need to compare it with a shuttle.
The mac mini is a budget AND an ultra small form factor.

Dell:
http://configure.us.dell.com/d...&l=en&oc=DDCWDA2&s=dhs
349$ for system with 2ghz C2D and super drive:
2 GB DDR2 667 SODIMM = $35 (for total of 3GB)
Key / Mouse included for free
Speakers = $20
19" LCD = $175

Dell will sell you an extra gig of ram for 50$so if you buy a 2GB of ram superdrive system through dell instead of by yourself it costs 399$ for a system preconfigured to be the same as the 950$ mac mini... only the dell system comes with vista and free mouse and keyboard. The apple doesn't.

If I downgrade the dell CPU to the one in the 599$ mac mini It comes out to 329$

So:
Dell 329$ system (1.8ghz, 1GB RAM)
= 599$ mac mini (1.8ghz, 1GB RAM) + keyboard/mouse + superdrive.
Dell 349$ system (2ghz, 1GB RAM) = 850$ mac mini (2ghz, 1GB RAM) + keyboard/mouse.
Dell 399$ system (2ghz, 2GB RAM) = 950$ mac mini (2ghz, 2GB RAM) + keyboard/mouse.

BTW, when I say + keyboard and mouse and drive I mean that the mac does NOT come with those things. So you need to purchase them separately. Except the drive, which you can't, unless you get an external USB drive... OH yea, you are gonna need a USB hub for that mac of yours...

Basically every addition to the mac...
Heck even the monitors... 190$ from dell, 600$ from apple

Now you COULD buy most of the parts yourself and upgrade/build it yourself... in which case you are better off zipping to newegg.com (or zipzoomfly, or mwave, whatever) and buying all the parts yourself paying even LESS per part.

Yes part of the mark up is due to the mac mini's miniaturization. But nobody asked for it!. Apple simply doesn't OFFER a tower sized PC.

 

[dclive]

You're confused. Check out the different Intel Core2Duo models before you quote prices; you quoted the Dual Core line in the Dell, not the Core2Duo. 1MB vs 2MB cache, amongst others, is a difference. Basically, add $80 to the Dell price to get an E-series 4500 that's similar speedwise to the T7200 in the Mac mini.

Please check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_mini) to learn more about the mini.

So, your answer is you can't match the mini's form factor. You also "forgot" (hmmm....) firewire. And you forgot about adding wireless 802.11g. And you also forgot Bluetooth. And you forgot iPhoto, iDVD, iMovie, Garage Loops, and MacOS X.

You left out a lot... basically there's no match to the mini anywhere close to the pricerange.

 

[taltamir]

fine... 399$ system +20 firewire card... +80$ to go to the 2.2ghz core2duo (i admit I missed that one...) Now its even a little faster then the 950$ mac mini. The more things I add the worse the mac seems...
Unless the software you listed, which I am entirely not familiar with (or the usefulness of) is worth several hundred dollars to you. Last I checked we were discussing an internet browsing machine for the elderly. Not a home movie studio

 

[dclive]

How is it faster than the Mini? T7200 vs. E4500 - got benchmarks or are you guessing again?

You admit you aren't familiar with the software --- or web browsing ---- or the mini, overall --- or MKVs on the mini....

Just what of this *are* you familiar with? Your comments are routinely proven wrong (when will you reply to my rebuttal of your "Service Packs are the same as Apple's OS X upgrades" nonsense) and you still keep coming.

 

[Tweakin]

You all should get a room.....