I know this may not be the correct section for this, but I have had the best luck in talking with people who are familiar with college and understand career paths here more then anywhere else. The counselors at my school are great but just don't know enough about my specific field to help me. I want to design microprocessors, either CPU or GPU, for one of the big three (intel, nvidia, AMD, maybe ARM). I am looking at bachelor and graduate programs, and a known of them seem to have any programs with emphasis in what I want to do. A lot of them focus around data bases, or networking, or something similar. I don't want to spend my life maintaining servers. It is good work but it is not for me. I am planning on picking up a bachelors in C++ programming at the same time I am going for a bachelors in computer engineering as a fall back career. Currently I am attending community college and I am just focusing on getting my math and beginning programming prerequisites out of the way. Where should I go and what programs should I enter for my undergrad and (if needed) graduate studies? Should I look into masters programs or will a bachelors be enough? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I want to design microprocessors... which program do I choose?
- Thread starter Mothergoose729
- Start date
Electrical engineering is what you're looking for, and that has nothing to do with databases or networking. Actually, programming may or may not be involved in CPU design; I'm not sure. You're looking for ABET-accredited 4-year programs that grant a BS (bachelor's of science) in engineering (NOT engineering technology).
I'd imagine grad school will be 100% necessary to get involved with the "big 4;" I doubt there are many undergrad programs that get in-depth enough to be very involved with processor design. If there are you'd probably have to search around to some of the bigger schools. Here in Michigan, probably U of M, Michigan Tech, and maybe State would have what you're looking for. I went to Grand Valley and, while they're working toward it with a new clean room and whatnot, there aren't electives related to IC design or weren't two years ago at least.
Just so you know, electrical engineering is very tough; it's not like you can just read the book, cram a couple hours, and float through. You have to put in the effort to understand some difficult concepts and a good amount of math. Not to scare you, but over half of my class was gone after one year, and half of those after just a few weeks. Lots of people want to go into engineering but you have to be willing to work hard to finish.
What part of the country are you in? I could name some good schools in that area if you'd like, or take a look at their electives to see if they'd get you there.
Ed.: Computer engineering doesn't necessarily put you in a position to design CPUs themselves. CE is more about code and less about hardware. There's a scale: computer science, computer engineering, and electrical engineering, where computer science is all about code without much regard to what processor is being used, computer engineering takes into account the hardware and is more likely to use microcontrollers or write drivers that interface with the hardware, and electrical engineering goes into more depth with designing the hardware (circuitry, power supplies, radio/RF/communications, IC design). There's plenty of overlap between CE and EE though.
I'd imagine grad school will be 100% necessary to get involved with the "big 4;" I doubt there are many undergrad programs that get in-depth enough to be very involved with processor design. If there are you'd probably have to search around to some of the bigger schools. Here in Michigan, probably U of M, Michigan Tech, and maybe State would have what you're looking for. I went to Grand Valley and, while they're working toward it with a new clean room and whatnot, there aren't electives related to IC design or weren't two years ago at least.
Just so you know, electrical engineering is very tough; it's not like you can just read the book, cram a couple hours, and float through. You have to put in the effort to understand some difficult concepts and a good amount of math. Not to scare you, but over half of my class was gone after one year, and half of those after just a few weeks. Lots of people want to go into engineering but you have to be willing to work hard to finish.
What part of the country are you in? I could name some good schools in that area if you'd like, or take a look at their electives to see if they'd get you there.
Ed.: Computer engineering doesn't necessarily put you in a position to design CPUs themselves. CE is more about code and less about hardware. There's a scale: computer science, computer engineering, and electrical engineering, where computer science is all about code without much regard to what processor is being used, computer engineering takes into account the hardware and is more likely to use microcontrollers or write drivers that interface with the hardware, and electrical engineering goes into more depth with designing the hardware (circuitry, power supplies, radio/RF/communications, IC design). There's plenty of overlap between CE and EE though.
Last edited:
Yeah you definitely want to go into Electrical Engineering if you want to design microprocessors. On the scale the previous poster mentioned, only the EEs actually get into the down-to-earth physics, and even then it's pretty lite compared to what the physicists will get into. The point is though... as a EE you'll get into the nitty gritty detail of working with the physical reality of these chips. This would be called "VLSI" (google search it). On that level you'll be working on a transistor to transistor basis. There's also higher level logic design that won't require as much physical knowledge.
All that said, for actual chip design I would guess you'd need a graduate degree. Unless you're a hot shot undergrad, which is a LOT of work in any of those degrees, you definitely won't start off in the design team in any of these companies. It's definitely worth noting the "lots of work" part of an EE, CS or CSE degree... the amount of coursework your senior year will easily end up matching 60-80 hour work weeks mostly because of lab projects.
All that said, for actual chip design I would guess you'd need a graduate degree. Unless you're a hot shot undergrad, which is a LOT of work in any of those degrees, you definitely won't start off in the design team in any of these companies. It's definitely worth noting the "lots of work" part of an EE, CS or CSE degree... the amount of coursework your senior year will easily end up matching 60-80 hour work weeks mostly because of lab projects.
Thank you guys so much. Awesome information. I live in Citrus Heights California, any school in the state would be great. 60 to 80 hours a week sound intense but I don't think I could be happy doing anything else.
look for classes in VLSI design. digital vlsi and mixed signal vlsi. also look at an intro to semiconductor devices.
i posted some of the projects i did in school: http://eeprojects.com/projects.html
i took mixed signal vlsi and intro to semiconductors. the title of electrical and computer engineer isn't that far off depending on your school.
for us electrical required another physics class (solid state) an electromagnetic waves class and differential equations. computer engineering required discrete mathematics and advanced c++ programming. ce could take most the classes that an ee could for electives and ee could take most the ce classes for electives.
i went the electrical engineering route doing half analog (analog circuit analysis and design, RF) half digital classes (digital circuit analysis and design, assembly, fpga, c) and picking up the advanced c++ class.
i posted some of the projects i did in school: http://eeprojects.com/projects.html
i took mixed signal vlsi and intro to semiconductors. the title of electrical and computer engineer isn't that far off depending on your school.
for us electrical required another physics class (solid state) an electromagnetic waves class and differential equations. computer engineering required discrete mathematics and advanced c++ programming. ce could take most the classes that an ee could for electives and ee could take most the ce classes for electives.
i went the electrical engineering route doing half analog (analog circuit analysis and design, RF) half digital classes (digital circuit analysis and design, assembly, fpga, c) and picking up the advanced c++ class.
Last edited:
almost all chip design, as is most engineering, is a lot of wonderful programing (in chip design, you use an hdl such as verilog or VHDL). So you better love programing. For EE you better also love lots of math!
It sounds like you don't know enough about the field yet (not that this is a bad thing, it's absolutely understandable at this point).
Some others have suggested that EE is what you want to do, but I feel like CE would also be a good fit depending on what aspect of CPU design you are interested in (in my opinion, a EE is more suited for transistor-level or gate-level design, while a CE would be more in the area of architectural design, both of which are interesting areas). It shouldn't matter much, though, since the distinction really is just in name and any school will likely let you cross over as much as you want.
In CA, the best schools (as in most prestigious) for EE are definitely UC Berkeley, Stanford, and Caltech. Just below those are UCLA, USC, Harvey-Mudd, and some others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Behind those are the other UCs and the Cal States (good for more hands-on experience I'm told, and some recruiters actually prefer students from them for that reason).
If you really want to get into design, you will need a graduate degree or many years of experience. A graduate degree will get you into design faster than experience, though. Most entry level engineers with a Bachelors will start in testing, QA, that type of thing.
BTW, I know you're set on microprocessor design right now, but keep an open mind. I highly recommend taking a wide variety of courses to find what you truly like, because you might find that RF design or device design (or something else entirely) happen to be more interesting to you than VLSI and CPU design (and will also provide job opportunities at the companies you've mentioned, among others). You won't know until you get pretty deep. Don't be afraid to pursue what you really like, even if it wasn't what you planned on.
Also, there is no such thing as a Bachelors in C++ programming. And if there was, you wouldn't want it.
Some others have suggested that EE is what you want to do, but I feel like CE would also be a good fit depending on what aspect of CPU design you are interested in (in my opinion, a EE is more suited for transistor-level or gate-level design, while a CE would be more in the area of architectural design, both of which are interesting areas). It shouldn't matter much, though, since the distinction really is just in name and any school will likely let you cross over as much as you want.
In CA, the best schools (as in most prestigious) for EE are definitely UC Berkeley, Stanford, and Caltech. Just below those are UCLA, USC, Harvey-Mudd, and some others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Behind those are the other UCs and the Cal States (good for more hands-on experience I'm told, and some recruiters actually prefer students from them for that reason).
If you really want to get into design, you will need a graduate degree or many years of experience. A graduate degree will get you into design faster than experience, though. Most entry level engineers with a Bachelors will start in testing, QA, that type of thing.
BTW, I know you're set on microprocessor design right now, but keep an open mind. I highly recommend taking a wide variety of courses to find what you truly like, because you might find that RF design or device design (or something else entirely) happen to be more interesting to you than VLSI and CPU design (and will also provide job opportunities at the companies you've mentioned, among others). You won't know until you get pretty deep. Don't be afraid to pursue what you really like, even if it wasn't what you planned on.
Also, there is no such thing as a Bachelors in C++ programming. And if there was, you wouldn't want it.
Ummm. Get an BSEE. Do a MSEE. And then pray that there will actually still be design jobs in North America, as much of that work is going to India/China/Taiwan at a very rapid pace.
I'd pretty much say that, if you're going to a second or lesser tier college, you don't stand much of a chance. You pretty much have to be a top student in high school math/physics wise, and then get yourself into a school like Stanford or MIT, to have much of a chance of getting a decent job in hardware.
Personally, I have a BSEE and BSCS from a top-20 institution (not Stanford or MIT, but not that much worse either!), and the job market in the past decade in the Silicon Valley and in chip design has been just downright horrific. Basically, nobody's been hired in the American chip design field since the late 1990s.
And as others have pointed out, theres a lot of areas of 'chip design'. Entire mid-sized companies exist just to provide tools for design, whether they be CAD tools, statistical design tools, or design management tools. There's the whole area of logic design and verification. There's the physical physics end of things. And then there's manufacturing, and test/verification. The collective efforts of literally many thousands of engineers are needed to bring a chip to market these days.
As for where to go in California -- I would say, Caltech, or UC Berkeley are your only public schools that are seriously worthwhile. But just be aware that there is a strong propensity to fill most of the entry-level positions these days with people overseas, as they can work for much less due to the cost of living. For how much education a chip designer needs, the salaries paid are shockingly low in the USA because of the foreign competition.
I'd pretty much say that, if you're going to a second or lesser tier college, you don't stand much of a chance. You pretty much have to be a top student in high school math/physics wise, and then get yourself into a school like Stanford or MIT, to have much of a chance of getting a decent job in hardware.
Personally, I have a BSEE and BSCS from a top-20 institution (not Stanford or MIT, but not that much worse either!), and the job market in the past decade in the Silicon Valley and in chip design has been just downright horrific. Basically, nobody's been hired in the American chip design field since the late 1990s.
And as others have pointed out, theres a lot of areas of 'chip design'. Entire mid-sized companies exist just to provide tools for design, whether they be CAD tools, statistical design tools, or design management tools. There's the whole area of logic design and verification. There's the physical physics end of things. And then there's manufacturing, and test/verification. The collective efforts of literally many thousands of engineers are needed to bring a chip to market these days.
As for where to go in California -- I would say, Caltech, or UC Berkeley are your only public schools that are seriously worthwhile. But just be aware that there is a strong propensity to fill most of the entry-level positions these days with people overseas, as they can work for much less due to the cost of living. For how much education a chip designer needs, the salaries paid are shockingly low in the USA because of the foreign competition.
Last edited:
Wow, pitz, melodramatic much?
First of all, there are still TONS of jobs in the US, especially in California. The economic downturn hit the industry just like it did others, but companies are still recruiting and plenty of people are getting hired. And they are hiring from not just Stanford or MIT, but plenty of the less prestigious schools as well.
Second, Caltech is not a public school.
Third, EEs are paid plenty well, chip designers included. Go look at any statistics on average wages for a given degree and EE is always toward the top.
First of all, there are still TONS of jobs in the US, especially in California. The economic downturn hit the industry just like it did others, but companies are still recruiting and plenty of people are getting hired. And they are hiring from not just Stanford or MIT, but plenty of the less prestigious schools as well.
Second, Caltech is not a public school.
Third, EEs are paid plenty well, chip designers included. Go look at any statistics on average wages for a given degree and EE is always toward the top.
EE is obviously a broader/more generic scope. It encompasses any application of electronics, not just computers and microprocessors. If you look at a list of noteable Electronics Engineers, they're all over the map in their contributions and fields; railroads, automotive, aerospace, radio and communications, power generation, et. al., reflecting the more broad/scope of applications in electronics.
CE is EE limited in scope but more in-depth on computers, systems, architecture, etc. You're probably going to get a more things like VLSI and microprocessor design in CE than EE, but it depends hugely on the school.
Dirk Meyer is a CE guy. Lots of chip architects and designers are CE, lots are EE with doctorates in CS or something else. H. Peter Hofstee (lead designer of the Cell Processor) was trained in physics and received a doctorate in CS.
If you're really sure that you want to limit your career to computer-centric microprocessor (and core logic) design/engineering, go with CE.
CE is EE limited in scope but more in-depth on computers, systems, architecture, etc. You're probably going to get a more things like VLSI and microprocessor design in CE than EE, but it depends hugely on the school.
Dirk Meyer is a CE guy. Lots of chip architects and designers are CE, lots are EE with doctorates in CS or something else. H. Peter Hofstee (lead designer of the Cell Processor) was trained in physics and received a doctorate in CS.
If you're really sure that you want to limit your career to computer-centric microprocessor (and core logic) design/engineering, go with CE.
Last edited:
I am a computer engineer and i have done few about designing microprocessor chips and doing programming on that. in fact i did a robotic project with the help of microprocessor designing.
But even then i found all replies of this post much more informative.
Thanks to forums
But even then i found all replies of this post much more informative.
Thanks to forums
Haha Pitz, you are funny. The best design work is in America, bar none. Most of the work moved overseas is code-monkey work: everything spelled out in SRS documents - just code it up. Also, work is increasingly being moved back as the hassle of working with folks with poor English and on 12-hour clock differences and with a whole different work philosophy becomes increasingly apparent.
There is also a "depends" as with most questions like this. It depends on what you mean by design. One aspect has been pretty well talked about here already. Another is signal integrity & electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) which is ensuring that a usable signal is available where you want it. I am an EE and work in this, but I meet plenty of people with physics degrees. For those people it is all about having an understanding of electromagnetic fields & waves ... Maxwell's Equations & all that ... which EEs also get. Physics or EE, depends on you and possibly the school.
Also, it is more than a little helpful to have an understanding of RF as most longer traces on digital PCBs are considered transmission lines. With clock rates well into the GHz ... well you will find out.
This *is* fun stuff. Many schools have departments that are the combination of Electrical and Computer Engineering.
Just trying to give you enough information so you ask the right questions.
Also, it is more than a little helpful to have an understanding of RF as most longer traces on digital PCBs are considered transmission lines. With clock rates well into the GHz ... well you will find out.
This *is* fun stuff. Many schools have departments that are the combination of Electrical and Computer Engineering.
Just trying to give you enough information so you ask the right questions.
Cogman
Lifer
- Sep 19, 2000
- 10,284
- 138
- 106
Just to put it out there, you NEED a masters degree to get a job at one of the big 4 companies. You won't go anywhere without one (at least, it isn't likely).
I'm currently doing an Undergrad in CE, in our program, the difference between a CE and a EE is something along the lines of 2 classes.
After doing a lot of work with the CE stuff, I can honestly say, the programming is the funnest part of the computer engineering program. Analog EE stuff is tedious, however, digital design and low level driver programming is a blast.
You should love programming, there are a few in my lower level classes that will say things like "CE would be better if there wasn't so much programming", however, they fail to realize that most digital design is, in fact, programming. Hardware is not commonly implemented by building schematics, it is written and interpreted just like most programming languages.
I'm currently doing an Undergrad in CE, in our program, the difference between a CE and a EE is something along the lines of 2 classes.
After doing a lot of work with the CE stuff, I can honestly say, the programming is the funnest part of the computer engineering program. Analog EE stuff is tedious, however, digital design and low level driver programming is a blast.
You should love programming, there are a few in my lower level classes that will say things like "CE would be better if there wasn't so much programming", however, they fail to realize that most digital design is, in fact, programming. Hardware is not commonly implemented by building schematics, it is written and interpreted just like most programming languages.
In my experience, its rare to find people in the industry that are under 35, because the last hiring cycle was back in the late 1990s, at least in North America. What has been happening is that entry-level chip design work has been offshored to places like Bangalore and Hyderabad, while the existing North American workforce has been progressively cannibalized.
Haven't heard of tech firms recruiting in the past decade on the hardware end in the United States. The industry has shrunk dramatically, along with engineer employment in the Silicon Valley.
Sorry, I didn't know that.
Not really. MSEE's are lucky to find jobs at $60-$70k/year, and doing a MSEE is comparable to doing a law degree or becoming a family doctor, in terms of the effort you have to put into the course. If you've spent the $200-$300k doing BSEE + MSEE at Stanford, its not very likely you'll ever recoup the money.
Also, EE salaries may appear to be higher, but 2 things are going on as well, a) the EE workforce is really getting older, so when EE's are employed they're in senior positions, and b) EE's are disproportionately employed in places where it is very expensive to live, ie: SFBay area. $80k/year doesn't go very far when you have to pay SFBay prices food, rent, petrol, etc. And in low-cost places such as Austin, the wages are somewhat lower even.
I guess when I got my MSEE a couple years ago and the folks I graduated with got $90k+ not to mention my own offer plus all the sizable signing bonuses etc it was just a fluke. Really it is just cyclical.
As to the original question what you mean by CPU design is really what will determine what makes sense for you.
If you are talking the level of design that is like "our cores should have 13 stage pipelines laid out like so" or "we can redesign the phy layer of our links to run at 100Gbps". CE targets exactly what the former does which is what I've always thought of as architecture. Where I work they used to do CPU and chipsets, now we only do chipsets and nearly all of the heavy hitting architecture folks are CEs.
I'm guessing that's probably what you mean when you say CPU design. Though it will depend entirely on your program whether that matters anyways. I did EE but our EE and CS schools are tightly interwoven so I took plenty of CS classes. If you are doing EE you'll want plenty of programming if you are thinking digital design of any kind.
As others have said a MS is pretty much a need. It is difficult to get enough exposure to VLSI and architecture at a useful level with a BS (though not impossible). Plus a MS will greatly improve your chances of landing at one of the big companies if that is your desire.
Lastly remember that you aren't going to start in design. Certainly not at a high and unless you manage to do some impressive MS research not even at the low. If you are able to get hired in on the 'functional' side at all it will likely be implementing to someone else's specs, getting to the point of having enough knowledge to participate in the architecture decisions will take years and actually making those decisions is something a LOT of the folks you'll be working with are striving for. Not trying to discourage you, just saying that there are a lot of folks out there reading about the latest CPUs/GPUs and dreaming of designing those and only a handful actually make those calls.
Modelworks
Lifer
- Feb 22, 2007
- 16,240
- 7
- 76
http://www.csupomona.edu/~ece/program/computer.html
They have one of the best people in microprocessor design , Mohamed Rafiquzzaman, or as the students call him Dr. Rafi.
The programs at the school are laid out without a lot of filler material so you aren't just taking courses to fill up a schedule.
Be aware that this program is not for the faint of heart, you will need to be dedicated.
Last edited:
Also drill into the IEEE web site.
They will have meetings & conferences near you where you can start networking ... and you cannot start too soon.
They will have meetings & conferences near you where you can start networking ... and you cannot start too soon.
Wow, I am overwhelmed here with all this information . You guys are so helpful, I really appreciate it.
So from reading your responses I can gather that some computer engineering programs are basically electrical engineering programs, just a little more computer focused? I like the sound of that, but I don't want to spend six or seven years on a degree and then find myself only being able to fill one type of job. EE would provide all the same opportunities to participate in design and implementation of chips, correct? Really where I want to be is involved in the four year long process that these chip makers take to bringing the most advanced products to market. I don't mind if I have to start out just implementing somebody else's design. I read Rober Calwell's "The Pentium Chronicles", in which he described his time on the pentium pro project in great detail. Since then there really hasn't been any doubt in my mind what I want to do. Anything involving laying out circuits, gates, implementing the sketchy designs of a far reaching architecture strategy, it all sounds fantastic.
I am not rich nor a prodegy genuis, so there is real monetary restraints as to where I can go and what programs are available to me. School I have been considering are UC stanta barbara, Fulerton, CSUS San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose, and a few others. I am leaning more towards the EE end right now because of all the flexibitily, but maybe I should consider double majoring in both and then get a graduate program in EE? From what I have seen of both programs they are very, very similar anyway and that would provide me with the most oppertunities. For instance, if the architecture thing doesn't work out for some reason, writing inline drivers, bios code, and other things close to the hardware would be exciting too.
. You guys are so helpful, I really appreciate it. So from reading your responses I can gather that some computer engineering programs are basically electrical engineering programs, just a little more computer focused? I like the sound of that, but I don't want to spend six or seven years on a degree and then find myself only being able to fill one type of job. EE would provide all the same opportunities to participate in design and implementation of chips, correct? Really where I want to be is involved in the four year long process that these chip makers take to bringing the most advanced products to market. I don't mind if I have to start out just implementing somebody else's design. I read Rober Calwell's "The Pentium Chronicles", in which he described his time on the pentium pro project in great detail. Since then there really hasn't been any doubt in my mind what I want to do. Anything involving laying out circuits, gates, implementing the sketchy designs of a far reaching architecture strategy, it all sounds fantastic.
I am not rich nor a prodegy genuis, so there is real monetary restraints as to where I can go and what programs are available to me. School I have been considering are UC stanta barbara, Fulerton, CSUS San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose, and a few others. I am leaning more towards the EE end right now because of all the flexibitily, but maybe I should consider double majoring in both and then get a graduate program in EE? From what I have seen of both programs they are very, very similar anyway and that would provide me with the most oppertunities. For instance, if the architecture thing doesn't work out for some reason, writing inline drivers, bios code, and other things close to the hardware would be exciting too.
Then it sounds like majoring in EE and doing a CE minor would make the most sense for you. Try to find an university with some kind of internship or co-op program, it will give you useful experience and you get a feel of what the working life would be like and whether you will like that kind of work after experiencing it. Now I'm from Canada so I don't know the exact details of EE/CE programs in US, but I assume that it is similar to here. You will generally end up taking the same course until late half of the 2nd year. By third year, you'll start to diverge and specialize in specific fields. CE has more access to computer science like courses such as real time OS and algorithms (math). EE will get courses such as on power systems and analogs. Of course you can take courses from the other side as electives as long as you meet the requirement.
My university has a large co-op program and I'm currently on my 4th work term. From my experience, I have known people who graduated CE programs to be doing EE's work and vice versa because they are similar and it really depends on what courses you decide to take during your time in those programs. I would say that it is not that important whether you complete a CE or EE undergraduate program. What matters more is the kind of graduate program you plan on going into. You should work towards meeting the requirements in getting into that program.
Engineering designs are generally always done by senior engineers with at least a master's degree. On the contrary to what some people say, there are shortages for competent engineers based on my talks with people at the places that I have worked in and at some US companies that my friends have worked in (our program has sizable employment by oversea companies). Main problem is that many recent brand new engineers lack practical experience because the university mainly teaches academic concepts in the undergraduate programs. It doesn't translate well into actual work competency. That is why you should seriously think about doing co-ops or internships during your studies.
My university has a large co-op program and I'm currently on my 4th work term. From my experience, I have known people who graduated CE programs to be doing EE's work and vice versa because they are similar and it really depends on what courses you decide to take during your time in those programs. I would say that it is not that important whether you complete a CE or EE undergraduate program. What matters more is the kind of graduate program you plan on going into. You should work towards meeting the requirements in getting into that program.
Engineering designs are generally always done by senior engineers with at least a master's degree. On the contrary to what some people say, there are shortages for competent engineers based on my talks with people at the places that I have worked in and at some US companies that my friends have worked in (our program has sizable employment by oversea companies). Main problem is that many recent brand new engineers lack practical experience because the university mainly teaches academic concepts in the undergraduate programs. It doesn't translate well into actual work competency. That is why you should seriously think about doing co-ops or internships during your studies.
Think of it this way: CE is better oriented towards higher level functionality and features of the device or system architecture, interconnects, interfaces, and topology. EE is better oriented towards the lower chip-level operation and fabrication.
A fab-less company who designs and markets device ICs or ASICs such as Realtek or Silicon Image would tend to look more for the CE skills. These companies define the features and functionality they want in their device IC or ASIC, down to the marchitectural specifics, which is done in modeling, simulation, and verification programs.
So you have a design that works (in software) but no actual chip yet. You then contract with a merchant foundry like TSMC, Charter, or Global Foundaries, which would tend to look more for the EE skills who hammer-out the minutia of how the physical chip should be designed and fabricated.
CE = what the chip does
EE = how the chip works
EE's would generally tend not to care or concern themselves too much about whether they are designing a video or audio processor. Its all transistors, gates, substrates, voltages, temperatures, capacitance, and whatnot to them. CE would generally tend not to care or concern themselves too much about those things.
Obviously, its a major oversimplification but enough to get the idea.
So if I am more concerned with algorithms and design as opposed to circuits I should look for graduate programs in CE and consider minoring in EE? I am interested in circuits but it is things like pipelining, branch prediction, cache handling and others that really excites me.
Yeah, although I am obviously very negative about the glut (I know grads from 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 in EE/CE/CS, who did very well in the courses, who are still unemployed these days), things may turn around in the next 5-6 years. When the labour market is actually balanced and good, firms hire people regardless of whether they did co-ops or internships, because everyone in the industry has a learning curve, whether they're a top grad or not.
I know, out in Markham, ATI/AMD, last year or the year before, advertised for entry-level chip designers, and got 200-500 resumes from EE's for essentially 2 or 3 positions that paid $45k-$55k/year. So the competition is crazy fierce, but if your time horizon is 6-8+ years, then you should have a better chance.
But what remains constant, whether you're an EE, a CE, or any other kind of engineering, is that you need top notch math skills. Anything less than 90's in high school math, and quite frankly, its pretty hard to imagine that you'll be very successful.
As another person said, strictly speaking, the only difference between EE and CE is that you don't have to take classes on 'power'. "Power", being things like transformers, rotating machines, protective relaying, and all of the calculations that go along with that.
Instead, those courses are replaced with, essentially, computer programming courses.
Those are all specific applications of logic design. Basically, if you really want to get into that, you do an undergrad CE degree, and then go do some research for a professor who researches microprocessor design and performance. Maybe you and the professor come up with some sort of novel idea, optimization, or explanation of performance characterization, concerning some aspect of microprocessor design. Then, either you hit the jackpot and the technology job market is good, in which case, a CPU design firm will pick you up -- or you languish as a graduate student for many years.
Its a very long road, and most of the guys I went to school with who thought they'd be working in the Silicon Valley designing chips and computers, are either unemployed, running other businesses, or they're designing wiring trays for electrical power substations. The amount of outsourcing and its effect on entry-level employment has been massive.
That is true, but coops and internships are also about networking. Companies are more likely to hire you if you worked there before even if only as a student. AMD Canada and Nvidia regularly hire coops from my university. You can also get some tips and general knowledge that they don't teach you in class. Otherwise, it also depends on how well you do in interviews. Engineers need soft skills too since we work in team environment most of the time. Even if you got very good course marks, if you can't convey your ideas properly during the interview then the chance of being hired is low. $45k-$55k is pretty low though, but I guess it also depends on the market. It wasn't a position for an actual engineer so I that may also explain it. There is a difference between holding a degree that allows you to become an engineer and actually having the engineer license, at least when it comes to the pay.
Mothergoose729> You can do CE major and an EE minor for undergrad. Then proceed to CE graduate programs. For all the stuff you listed as being interested in, I think CE is definitely for you
Last edited:
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 24K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 20K
-
-
-
Facebook
Twitter