I tweeted about diversity and got hammered by haters

[Greenman]

Myopia is a common problem.

Sometimes it isn't about the advantages you had as it is about the disadvantages that weren't stacked against you.

And diversity somehow corrects that? I don't see it. If any group of people want to live with like minded folks that's fine with me. The only time it becomes an issue is when it's white people that do it. I get the reasons for that as well, I just don't agree with the premise of guilt by assocation.

 

[jackstar7]

And diversity somehow corrects that? I don't see it. If any group of people want to live with like minded folks that's fine with me. The only time it becomes an issue is when it's white people that do it. I get the reasons for that as well, I just don't agree with the premise of guilt by association.

Cool.

Don't think of it as guilt then. Reframe it as advantages that you were able to benefit from. It doesn't diminish the value of the work you did/do, but it contextualizes it against those that might be working as hard, not getting to your level of success, and being held back by institutional forces (or small local forces) all based on arbitrary factors.

If you value justice, then, in theory, you will be properly motivated to ensure all hard-working people get a fair shake.

 

[justoh]

And diversity somehow corrects that? I don't see it.

Minorities "perform" better in non-segregated environments, form better connections, etc. Minorities gain access, and also the chance to impress upon the religious the idea that they're human.

Progressives think that if only bigots were exposed to minorities they'd see how kosher they were, but curiously they also encourage respect for religion. Wait, why do I think there's a god again? Because I'm told so. Why are blacks inferior? I'm told so. Evidence for neither. Coincidence?

 

[Greenman]

Cool.

Don't think of it as guilt then. Reframe it as advantages that you were able to benefit from. It doesn't diminish the value of the work you did/do, but it contextualizes it against those that might be working as hard, not getting to your level of success, and being held back by institutional forces (or small local forces) all based on arbitrary factors.

If you value justice, then, in theory, you will be properly motivated to ensure all hard-working people get a fair shake.

Everyone deserves the opportunity to excel. Holding anyone down because of their skin color is fundamentaly

Cool.

Don't think of it as guilt then. Reframe it as advantages that you were able to benefit from. It doesn't diminish the value of the work you did/do, but it contextualizes it against those that might be working as hard, not getting to your level of success, and being held back by institutional forces (or small local forces) all based on arbitrary factors.

If you value justice, then, in theory, you will be properly motivated to ensure all hard-working people get a fair shake.

Equal opportunity is a given, every clear thinking person sees that. I'm also a big believer in second chances for those that might have done something regrettable in their past. But that only peripherally enters the diversity discussion, and doesn't lend it any credence. If a population ends up diverse organically, that's all well and good, but as a goal to be pursued it becomes a point of contention.

 

[Greenman]

Minorities "perform" better in non-segregated environments, form better connections, etc. Minorities gain access, and also the chance to impress upon the religious the idea that they're human.

I'll buy that without asking for any evidence of accuracy, with one "but". Isn't it possible that the improved performance is more cultural than demonstrating worth? I have a lot of trouble believing that hanging out with white people makes either of them better people.
I like where you're going with this line of reasoning though, you could be on to something.

 

[Jhhnn]

Everyone deserves the opportunity to excel. Holding anyone down because of their skin color is fundamentaly

Equal opportunity is a given, every clear thinking person sees that. I'm also a big believer in second chances for those that might have done something regrettable in their past. But that only peripherally enters the diversity discussion, and doesn't lend it any credence. If a population ends up diverse organically, that's all well and good, but as a goal to be pursued it becomes a point of contention.

The population of the US is now more diverse than it's ever been. Mere fact. Whites will likely become a minority like all the rest in another 25-30 years. More fact.

We can embrace that, say it's a good thing, or we can whine about it as if we're actually losing anything in the process. To claim that we might be is fundamentally racist. Part of it is that immigrants have more children because they're optimists who see a bright future in this country & aren't steeped in the inherent negativity of the right wing.

There has always been a faction of xenophobic mow-rons in this country. Quakers were shunned by Puritans. Germans & Dutch who settled Pennsylvania were widely hated. Then there were the Irish, The Mennonites, the Swedes, the Italians, the Jews, Poles, Serbians, Chinese, Latinos of California & the Southwest plus all the rest.

Guess what? We swallowed them up & added their distinctiveness to our own, remade ourselves in the process. It's how we roll. We're like the Borg except it's all voluntary. You will be assimilated. We'll change some in the process just like we always have & emerge stronger than before despite the nay-saying & fear mongering.

 

[justoh]

I like where you're going with this line of reasoning though, you could be on to something.

Yeah. I'm on to YOU. Don't patronize me. No greens allowed.

 

[Greenman]

Yeah. I'm on to YOU. Don't patronize me. No greens allowed.

No idea what you're on about. But I'll respect your wishes and never agree with you again.
If you prefer, I'll put you on ignore, your choice.

 

[justoh]

No idea what you're on about. But I'll respect your wishes and never agree with you again.
If you prefer, I'll put you on ignore, your choice.

You "agreed" with the standard response to your question, one I thought you should have anticipated, so I figured you were being sarcastic, trying to get me to repeat more of their propaganda, in an effort to subtly mock me. No? My bad.

 

[Greenman]

You "agreed" with the standard response to your question, one I thought you should have anticipated, so I figured you were being sarcastic, trying to get me to repeat more of their propaganda, in an effort to subtly mock me. No? My bad.

No mockery involved. I was pointing out that you were supplying information that I didn't know or had never thought about.

 

[bshole]

The population of the US is now more diverse than it's ever been. Mere fact. Whites will likely become a minority like all the rest in another 25-30 years. More fact.

We can embrace that, say it's a good thing, or we can whine about it as if we're actually losing anything in the process. To claim that we might be is fundamentally racist. Part of it is that immigrants have more children because they're optimists who see a bright future in this country & aren't steeped in the inherent negativity of the right wing.

There has always been a faction of xenophobic mow-rons in this country. Quakers were shunned by Puritans. Germans & Dutch who settled Pennsylvania were widely hated. Then there were the Irish, The Mennonites, the Swedes, the Italians, the Jews, Poles, Serbians, Chinese, Latinos of California & the Southwest plus all the rest.

Guess what? We swallowed them up & added their distinctiveness to our own, remade ourselves in the process. It's how we roll. We're like the Borg except it's all voluntary. You will be assimilated. We'll change some in the process just like we always have & emerge stronger than before despite the nay-saying & fear mongering.

I have been reading more about South Africa lately. South Africa just voted to take the land of white farmers without compensation (similar to Zimbabwe) and a member of the alt-right visited the country to talk to white people.

I read an African-American woman's take on the situation and included the snippet that caught my eye. I found the comments in her blog interesting as well.

The question is, have these people no sense of history, context or irony? Maybe white poverty is increasing because they actually have to compete with blacks for jobs. Maybe they don’t work hard enough. Maybe they’re just dumb and lazy. I don’t know.

What’s really glaring is the sense of entitlement that white Americans and white South Africans both have. Hmm. Let’s see. What do they have in common? General wealth? Check. Some of the world’s highest rates of incarceration and HIV? Yup (except this affects only the blacks in those countries). What else? Oh yes, a once-legal but still-pervasive racial caste system, which gifts and curses whites into thinking that they are so much of a god that the world owes them something.

Here’s an idea for these poor, sad, white South Africans: Get a job. Work harder. Do better. Don’t rely on the government so much. Stop having kids. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Go back to your own country.

https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/cry-me-a-river-of-white-tears-white-south-african-colo-1823331790

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Why do you fellows think diversity is so special?

It creates a broader range of thought and perception of the world we live in. At least with those intelligent enough to value that.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I have been reading more about South Africa lately. South Africa just voted to take the land of white farmers without compensation (similar to Zimbabwe) and a member of the alt-right visited the country to talk to white people.

I read an African-American woman's take on the situation and included the snippet that caught my eye. I found the comments in her blog interesting as well.



https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/cry-me-a-river-of-white-tears-white-south-african-colo-1823331790

Actually, they did no such thing. It's rather more complicated. At the very least, the constitution would need to be amended and, at this point, that's a long way from possibly happening.

Some background

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...is-back-in-news-in-south-africa-quicktake-q-a

https://www.reuters.com/article/saf...expropriation-plan-anc-official-idUSL5N1QO1SV

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...riate-land-without-compensation-idUSKCN1GQ280

 

[Jhhnn]

I have been reading more about South Africa lately. South Africa just voted to take the land of white farmers without compensation (similar to Zimbabwe) and a member of the alt-right visited the country to talk to white people.

I read an African-American woman's take on the situation and included the snippet that caught my eye. I found the comments in her blog interesting as well.



https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/cry-me-a-river-of-white-tears-white-south-african-colo-1823331790

That's not quite accurate wrt S Africa-

https://www.fin24.com/Economy/parli...d-expropriation-without-compensation-20180414

There's def some rumblings, however.

In any case, we're not them & the issues are entirely different. The tone of your linked blog isn't really helpful at all. We need more mutual respect & harmony if we're to have a better America, not less.

 

[bshole]

That's not quite accurate wrt S Africa-

https://www.fin24.com/Economy/parli...d-expropriation-without-compensation-20180414

There's def some rumblings, however.

In any case, we're not them & the issues are entirely different. The tone of your linked blog isn't really helpful at all. We need more mutual respect & harmony if we're to have a better America, not less.

Do you believe the tone of the linked blog is indicative of a larger societal shift or is it anomalous?

For example, I am very curious what your opinion of the Evergreen State College protests is.


https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...-of-protests-resigns-college-will-pay-500000/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-turns-on-its-own.html

 

[glenn1]

It creates a broader range of thought and perception of the world we live in. At least with those intelligent enough to value that.

You're working under the incorrect presumption that all thought within that "broader range" brings equal value and perception and it most certainly does not. No one is enriched with the "diversity" of ant-vaxxers, or those who think female genital mutilation and honor killings are a good thing, or believe in flat-earth theory, or believe professional wrestling to be real. At the very best the value you can gain from them is sharpening your own thinking and arguments against challenge. Good diversity allows one to gain advantage by challenging long-held and sometimes biased thinking based on sloppy heuristics and groupthink, even the mere fact that someone from a different subgroup is available typically challenges people to reconsider what their view of a "settled" topic should be. Bad diversity gets people bogged down into rabbit holes of needing to defend well-based and proved things from challenges based not on a competing scientific theory or hypothesis about cause/effect but rather about sloppy thinking, biased reasoning, and other logical fallacies.

 

[Jhhnn]

Do you believe the tone of the linked blog is indicative of a larger societal shift or is it anomalous?

For example, I am very curious what your opinion of the Evergreen State College protests is.


https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...-of-protests-resigns-college-will-pay-500000/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-turns-on-its-own.html

I don't think that what happens at Evergreen college is indicative of mainstream thought at all. I think that Southern's piece is designed to stoke White fear in N America & that Helm's remarks play into it.

It really doesn't have much to do with the increased diversity of America. Those who would argue against it already lost the argument. We need to work with it, embrace it, not bemoan the fact that it happened.

 

[piasabird]

It not diversity that is Americas strength. It is searching for skilled people from other countries and bringing them to the USA that is America's true strength. Even Joseph Smith Jr, the leader of the Mormons in the 1800's understood this. You cant build up a country without skilled people. At times you need laborers willing to work hard for little pay, but without good leaders you just have a bunch of farmers.

 

[piasabird]

There is a difference between diversity and anarchy.

 

[piasabird]

Well so far the Irish have not taken over and the Italians didnt take over and the Germans didnt take over and Poles didnt take over and the Jews did not take over and the Asians have not taken over. The people from Norway and Sweden didnt take over. The English did not take over. The Spanish did not take over. The French did not take over. The Goal should be the Melting pot.