I think the Kerry supporters in here should learn a lesson from their man

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: GoodDad

I am not saying that you have to agree with Bush, heck I hope you disagree with him. It means you actually have an opinion on things. The great thing about living here is that we can all have our own views on things and we will fight to the death to protect that right.

I have heard so many personal attacks on people just because of their political views. Maybe I am partial, but it seems to be Dems preaching the hate. At work we are pretty much 50/50 as far as our politcal views. The Dems always seem to get mad and fall back on attacking us instead of talking about what they see as right. Monday night I left work wishing them luck in the election. They were still saying "You better hope your man wins!"

I dont know. I just want things to get back to us all being Americans, and not Republicans and Democrats.

So you want Kerry supporters to not insult Republicans? Fine. That's a nice thought. If you want to be taken seriously you should recognize the heinous trolling that's been being perpetrated by the conservatives here and ask that they do the same.

 

[rudeguy]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: GoodDad

I am not saying that you have to agree with Bush, heck I hope you disagree with him. It means you actually have an opinion on things. The great thing about living here is that we can all have our own views on things and we will fight to the death to protect that right.

I have heard so many personal attacks on people just because of their political views. Maybe I am partial, but it seems to be Dems preaching the hate. At work we are pretty much 50/50 as far as our politcal views. The Dems always seem to get mad and fall back on attacking us instead of talking about what they see as right. Monday night I left work wishing them luck in the election. They were still saying "You better hope your man wins!"

I dont know. I just want things to get back to us all being Americans, and not Republicans and Democrats.

So you want Kerry supporters to not insult Republicans? Fine. That's a nice thought. If you want to be taken seriously you should recognize the heinous trolling that's been being perpetrated by the conservatives here and ask that they do the same.

of course I would ask the same of them.

I stay out of P&N because I don't like the trolling that goes on, on either side. If W had lost and did the right thing like Kerry is doing, then I would have made the same thread.

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Hammer

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't see anybody not conceding a Bush Victory. You mean they should all of a sudden approve of the Dub because he won by a slight majority? It won't happen just like it didn't happen with the Republicans when Clinton won be even a higher percentage.

He did not win a higher %.

bush is the first president since reagan to have won more than 50% of the vote

He did not do that well as far as getting that much higher of a percentage of the vote. Of course the Republican Spinmiesters will totally disregard that little fact and make it seem like the Dub got an overwhelming mandate from the American Public which, of course, will be false!

He has the highest mandate from the country in 16 years.

Total vote = 100%

Bush > 50 %
All other candidates <50%

He did not do well in getting a higher percentage of the vote?

No. What he's saying is that (VOTESbush - VOTESkerry) isn't more than (VOTESclinton96 - VOTESdole96) or any of the other margins of victory in recent elections other than 2000...

And what I saying is that doesn't mean any more than my comment does. It may in fact mean less....

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't see anybody not conceding a Bush Victory. You mean they should all of a sudden approve of the Dub because he won by a slight majority? It won't happen just like it didn't happen with the Republicans when Clinton won be even a higher percentage.

He did not win a higher %.

In both of Clinton's terms, he won by a larger margin than Bush has won this election. That is the big stat that matters, everything else changes in importance from election to election.

hahaha, you guys will pull anything out just to make it look better for your side.

Like facts and the truth!

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't see anybody not conceding a Bush Victory. You mean they should all of a sudden approve of the Dub because he won by a slight majority? It won't happen just like it didn't happen with the Republicans when Clinton won be even a higher percentage.

He did not win a higher %.

In both of Clinton's terms, he won by a larger margin than Bush has won this election. That is the big stat that matters, everything else changes in importance from election to election.

A margin of victory is no more important then getting more than half of the nation on your side. If you think margin of victory is more important you are mistaken.

I don't think either is a big deal, but I also think you are the one who is mistaken about the releative importance of the various stats.

Example 1:
Let's say there are 7 candidates for President, Candidate A gets 40% of the popular vote, the other 6 candidates get 10% each. Total votes are 10 million.

Example 2:
Let's just have 2 candidates, Candidate Z gets 51% of the popular vote, Candidate X gets 49%. Total votes are 100 million.

Candidate Z has a higher percentage of the popular vote than Candidate A, and Candidate Z has more total votes than Candidate A. But clearly A is far better than any alternatives, 4 times as many people voted for him than any other individual candidate and almost half the country thinks X is better than Z.

It just seems like margin of victory is MOST important in determining how much better the voters think the winner is than any of his competitors. Does this make sense to anyone else, or have I been hitting the crack pipe again?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: GoodDad

of course I would ask the same of them.

But you didn't did you? 😉

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

To this point I'm very impressed with his speech. He's in a difficult situation and showing a lot of class and grace. I think that's important in terms of helping the nation move on and be successful.

 

[KELBOY]

kumba-yaa me lord... kumbayaa,
kumbah-yaa me lord , kumbayaa.....

come on now everybody.....

 

[hifimaster]

I voted for kerry, and wished He won. I am watching him concede now he is taking it like a man. Please America Unite as ONE as we did on 9/11/01. Good game ,No more politics AWSOME. Now its time to get RICH so i can Get a Tax CUT🙂

 

[hifimaster]

Good wording RainFord you should work for the Bush Admin🙂

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: GoodDad
its called humility. kerry sounds like he is going to accept defeat and take it like a man. It would be nice to see you guys do the same.

Can you define accept defeat more concretely? A lot of conservatives expect Kerry voters to somehow admit they have been wrong for years and now accept Jesus as their lord and savior. I see I'm going to have to repeat this a lot: the election decided who's in power; it did not decide who is wrong or right.

(PS go back to the normal forums; don't need you here orchestrating P&amp;N. 😉 )

Yep.

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't see anybody not conceding a Bush Victory. You mean they should all of a sudden approve of the Dub because he won by a slight majority? It won't happen just like it didn't happen with the Republicans when Clinton won be even a higher percentage.

He did not win a higher %.

In both of Clinton's terms, he won by a larger margin than Bush has won this election. That is the big stat that matters, everything else changes in importance from election to election.

A margin of victory is no more important then getting more than half of the nation on your side. If you think margin of victory is more important you are mistaken.

I don't think either is a big deal, but I also think you are the one who is mistaken about the releative importance of the various stats.

Example 1:
Let's say there are 7 candidates for President, Candidate A gets 40% of the popular vote, the other 6 candidates get 10% each. Total votes are 10 million.

Example 2:
Let's just have 2 candidates, Candidate Z gets 51% of the popular vote, Candidate X gets 49%. Total votes are 100 million.

Candidate Z has a higher percentage of the popular vote than Candidate A, and Candidate Z has more total votes than Candidate A. But clearly A is far better than any alternatives, 4 times as many people voted for him than any other individual candidate and almost half the country thinks X is better than Z.

It just seems like margin of victory is MOST important in determining how much better the voters think the winner is than any of his competitors. Does this make sense to anyone else, or have I been hitting the crack pipe again?

Ok.... well I can't remeber the last time example one resembled a Presidential election but we'll work with it. Example 2 is the example we just had, example one is Rainsford's idea.

Lets say you have 100 million voters and two examples.

Example 1. There are 7 candidates. Candidate one gets 40% of the vote or 40 million votes. The rest get 10% or 10 million votes.

Example 2. There are 3 candidates Candidate one gets 52% of the vote and Candidate two gets 48%. Candidate three strikes out completely. Candidate one has 52 million votes.


So while candidate one in your example had a huge 30% margin of victory he could only get 40 million votes. Candidate one in the real example got 52 million votes or 12 million or 30% more than the guy who had a higher margin of victory.

 

[Geekbabe]

How about you guys just going and doing your thing without expecting the rest of us to like it.I have no desire to stand side by side with a republican singing anything.Thanks but no thanks, a divided America works for me.

 

[AntiEverything]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
How about you guys just going and doing your thing without expecting the rest of us to like it.I have no desire to stand side by side with a republican singing anything.Thanks but no thanks, a divided America works for me.

But remember everyone! Bush is the divider! Not these hateful Democrats! :roll:

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't see anybody not conceding a Bush Victory. You mean they should all of a sudden approve of the Dub because he won by a slight majority? It won't happen just like it didn't happen with the Republicans when Clinton won be even a higher percentage.

He did not win a higher %.

In both of Clinton's terms, he won by a larger margin than Bush has won this election. That is the big stat that matters, everything else changes in importance from election to election.

A margin of victory is no more important then getting more than half of the nation on your side. If you think margin of victory is more important you are mistaken.

I don't think either is a big deal, but I also think you are the one who is mistaken about the releative importance of the various stats.

Example 1:
Let's say there are 7 candidates for President, Candidate A gets 40% of the popular vote, the other 6 candidates get 10% each. Total votes are 10 million.

Example 2:
Let's just have 2 candidates, Candidate Z gets 51% of the popular vote, Candidate X gets 49%. Total votes are 100 million.

Candidate Z has a higher percentage of the popular vote than Candidate A, and Candidate Z has more total votes than Candidate A. But clearly A is far better than any alternatives, 4 times as many people voted for him than any other individual candidate and almost half the country thinks X is better than Z.

It just seems like margin of victory is MOST important in determining how much better the voters think the winner is than any of his competitors. Does this make sense to anyone else, or have I been hitting the crack pipe again?

Ok.... well I can't remeber the last time example one resembled a Presidential election but we'll work with it. Example 2 is the example we just had, example one is Rainsford's idea.

Lets say you have 100 million voters and two examples.

Example 1. There are 7 candidates. Candidate one gets 40% of the vote or 40 million votes. The rest get 10% or 10 million votes.

Example 2. There are 3 candidates Candidate one gets 52% of the vote and Candidate two gets 48%. Candidate three strikes out completely. Candidate one has 52 million votes.


So while candidate one in your example had a huge 30% margin of victory he could only get 40 million votes. Candidate one in the real example got 52 million votes or 12 million or 30% more than the guy who had a higher margin of victory.

Ok, I see your point. If you look at it as the Winner vs Everybody Else, then I guess you could look at it as: 52% of the country prefers Candidate 1 (in the second example) for President vs only 40% of the country liking him in the first example. That makes sense to me, and if you look at it as Winner vs Any Other Individual Candidate, Candidate 1 was clearly the best in Example 1, but less clearly so in Example 2 because in Example 1 he had so many more votes than the other guys.

Heh, I'm starting to get a headache here 😀. I guess the best way to think of it is that any one stat doesn't tell the whole story, each one says something different and you need them all to get a complete picture.

You can't say Bush is more popular than Washington even though total popular votes would suggest that, you can't say Bush beat Kerry by more than the runner up usually loses by even though Bush's "over 50%" record might suggest that, and you can't say that a candidate with 40% of the popular vote is that great even if their margin of victory might suggest THAT.

As Mark Twain said, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." 😉

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
How about you guys just going and doing your thing without expecting the rest of us to like it.I have no desire to stand side by side with a republican singing anything.Thanks but no thanks, a divided America works for me.

But remember everyone! Bush is the divider! Not these hateful Democrats! :roll:

Well, it takes two to tango. A Republican who adopts principles very much opposed to a Democrat's has no more right to complain about division than does a Democrat who refuses to agree with the Republican on anything.

What getting America together will take is BOTH sides sitting down and saying, "Well, you guys might have a point." Until both sides do that, we're going to have bigger and bigger problems. And you Republicans can crow all you want, I don't see very much of that from your side of things.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: hifimaster
I voted for kerry, and wished He won. I am watching him concede now he is taking it like a man. Please America Unite as ONE as we did on 9/11/01. Good game ,No more politics AWSOME. Now its time to get RICH so i can Get a Tax CUT🙂

If you define "rich" as making enough money to actually pay taxes, then yeah, you would be right. Otherwise, you are a moron and you got a tax cut just like EVERYONE.

 

[aswedc]

Originally posted by: GoodDad
I am not saying that you have to agree with Bush, heck I hope you disagree with him. It means you actually have an opinion on things. The great thing about living here is that we can all have our own views on things and we will fight to the death to protect that right.

I have heard so many personal attacks on people just because of their political views. Maybe I am partial, but it seems to be Dems preaching the hate. At work we are pretty much 50/50 as far as our politcal views. The Dems always seem to get mad and fall back on attacking us instead of talking about what they see as right. Monday night I left work wishing them luck in the election. They were still saying "You better hope your man wins!"

I dont know. I just want things to get back to us all being Americans, and not Republicans and Democrats.

Its interesting how all the Bush supporters are treating politics like a sport now - the result is in, lets go back to living our lives as friends and forget about it until next time. The problem is that to 48% of this country, this is no sport, its life and death. We believe the Bush administration is driving the greatest country in the world straight into the ground, doing damage that will take decades to repair if it can be repaired at all. This election is about our saftey, our jobs, our future, and the very survival of America, and its not something we can just put away and stop fighting for.

 

[Class1]

How about a viable third party so we can have 3 crappy choices.

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: aswedc

Originally posted by: GoodDad
I am not saying that you have to agree with Bush, heck I hope you disagree with him. It means you actually have an opinion on things. The great thing about living here is that we can all have our own views on things and we will fight to the death to protect that right.

I have heard so many personal attacks on people just because of their political views. Maybe I am partial, but it seems to be Dems preaching the hate. At work we are pretty much 50/50 as far as our politcal views. The Dems always seem to get mad and fall back on attacking us instead of talking about what they see as right. Monday night I left work wishing them luck in the election. They were still saying "You better hope your man wins!"

I dont know. I just want things to get back to us all being Americans, and not Republicans and Democrats.

Its interesting how all the Bush supporters are treating politics like a sport now - the result is in, lets go back to living our lives as friends and forget about it until next time. The problem is that to 48% of this country, this is no sport, its life and death. We believe the Bush administration is driving the greatest country in the world straight into the ground, doing damage that will take decades to repair if it can be repaired at all. This election is about our saftey, our jobs, our future, and the very survival of America, and its not something we can just put away and stop fighting for.

For 52% of this country this is no sport either. Wishing the opposing party good luck is good friendsmenship. Much like I would wish my friend luck if he/she were going to an important event. We believe the Democrats would have subject edt the greatest counttry in the world to misinformation, fence hopping and an overall degredation of a stance we hold againt terrorism and protecting this great country. Both sides have opinions but the bottom line is that the name calling, finger pointing and naysaying will never stop. I believe that as far as the naysaying and fingerpointing it should not stop when dealing with a radical regardless if they are left or right minded. There are issues such as gay marriage and stem cell research that pull at the hart and soul of a person and their belief system. Healthy debate is necessary on these points, and if it goes to fingerpointing and naysaying to keep or change things they way you want them then that is what needs to be done. This is not a sport, it is a way of life, and the winner is the American people. Both sides have their downfalls, neither of wich puts the country on a strong tilt. This is the greatest country in the world regardless of our President rather it be Bush or Kerry.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: aswedc

Originally posted by: GoodDad
I am not saying that you have to agree with Bush, heck I hope you disagree with him. It means you actually have an opinion on things. The great thing about living here is that we can all have our own views on things and we will fight to the death to protect that right.

I have heard so many personal attacks on people just because of their political views. Maybe I am partial, but it seems to be Dems preaching the hate. At work we are pretty much 50/50 as far as our politcal views. The Dems always seem to get mad and fall back on attacking us instead of talking about what they see as right. Monday night I left work wishing them luck in the election. They were still saying "You better hope your man wins!"

I dont know. I just want things to get back to us all being Americans, and not Republicans and Democrats.

Its interesting how all the Bush supporters are treating politics like a sport now - the result is in, lets go back to living our lives as friends and forget about it until next time. The problem is that to 48% of this country, this is no sport, its life and death. We believe the Bush administration is driving the greatest country in the world straight into the ground, doing damage that will take decades to repair if it can be repaired at all. This election is about our saftey, our jobs, our future, and the very survival of America, and its not something we can just put away and stop fighting for.

For 52% of this country this is no sport either. Wishing the opposing party good luck is good friendsmenship. Much like I would wish my friend luck if he/she were going to an important event. We believe the Democrats would have subject edt the greatest counttry in the world to misinformation, fence hopping and an overall degredation of a stance we hold againt terrorism and protecting this great country. Both sides have opinions but the bottom line is that the name calling, finger pointing and naysaying will never stop. I believe that as far as the naysaying and fingerpointing it should not stop when dealing with a radical regardless if they are left or right minded. There are issues such as gay marriage and stem cell research that pull at the hart and soul of a person and their belief system. Healthy debate is necessary on these points, and if it goes to fingerpointing and naysaying to keep or change things they way you want them then that is what needs to be done. This is not a sport, it is a way of life, and the winner is the American people. Both sides have their downfalls, neither of wich puts the country on a strong tilt. This is the greatest country in the world regardless of our President rather it be Bush or Kerry.

I couldn't agree more (by the way, you guys have 51%, not 52%, the other 1% voted for someone else, just thought I'd point that out 😉).

But I think the important point is we need to spend the next 4 years TALKING WITH THE OTHER SIDE and figuring out the best things for this country, just like we would have needed to do with Kerry as President. Nothing will lead to quicker disaster than for the Republicans to say, "Haha, we won and you lost, now we're in charge and you can suck it!" They might be in charge, but neglecting the thoughts and opinions of 48% (well, really 49% since that other 1% didn't want Bush either) of the country seems like a bad idea.

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't see anybody not conceding a Bush Victory. You mean they should all of a sudden approve of the Dub because he won by a slight majority? It won't happen just like it didn't happen with the Republicans when Clinton won be even a higher percentage.

He did not win a higher %.

In both of Clinton's terms, he won by a larger margin than Bush has won this election. That is the big stat that matters, everything else changes in importance from election to election.

Umm....No its not the big stat that matters. Its the EV's that matter. Clinton didn't win over 50% of the public either. Bush did...now accept it and quit lying to even yourself.

 

[GoingUp]

I voted for bush and I really don't like Kerry, but I applaud the way that he handled the situation in ohio. He didn't want to drag a country through the court system in something that he would have lost anyways.

The democratic supporters need to follow his lead, accept the loss and move on. Bush won convincingly.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Chadder007

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't see anybody not conceding a Bush Victory. You mean they should all of a sudden approve of the Dub because he won by a slight majority? It won't happen just like it didn't happen with the Republicans when Clinton won be even a higher percentage.

He did not win a higher %.

In both of Clinton's terms, he won by a larger margin than Bush has won this election. That is the big stat that matters, everything else changes in importance from election to election.

Umm....No its not the big stat that matters. Its the EV's that matter. Clinton didn't win over 50% of the public either. Bush did...now accept it and quit lying to even yourself.

I'm not "lying". Some Republicans are harping on the 50% of the popular vote and most-votes-ever arguments like this was a landslide. I'm simply pointing out that when talking about popular vote, what really matters is by how many percentage points Bush won over Kerry. Perhaps I could have been more precise, but I don't see how anyone could dispute that Clinton beat his opponents by a larger margin of popular votes than Bush beat Kerry by. I'm just saying that when talking about popular vote, you have to look at the margins. Any halfway decent statistician will tell you that, there is no argument here that I can see.

No one has been talking about electoral votes, not even your side, because there's nothing interesting there. Jeez, you guys are acting like I said Kerry won or something. He didn't win, he lost the popular vote and the EV. It is a clear Bush victory. But in the popular vote, most of the recent elections have seen more of a dramatic victory in the popular vote of the President over the 2nd place candidate...numbers don't lie. I'll agree Bush won, that's never been disputed. I won't agree that this was all this was a better than usual of a win with the popular vote, because the numbers just don't support it.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
I voted for bush and I really don't like Kerry, but I applaud the way that he handled the situation in ohio. He didn't want to drag a country through the court system in something that he would have lost anyways.

The democratic supporters need to follow his lead, accept the loss and move on. Bush won convincingly.

I'm ready to move on, I agree Bush won quite obviously. But the scientist inside me is bothered by the popular vote landslide some Bush supporters seem to feel he has won. It's not because I won't accept Bush has one, the inaccuracy of it is all that bugs me. Bush supporters should be happy that he won, not trying to invent some kind of huge sweep of the popular vote, because relative to Kerry and past elections, the huge victory sweep just isn't there.