I think Obama just screwed up

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Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: HacpDid you even read? The decision wasn't made on intelligence alone. Congress voted for authority to put pressure on Saddam, so he would let inspectors in. All of your quotes are from 2003. The authority was given in 2002. Bush just used faulty intelligence to mislead the public, and give a phoney excuse to go to war.

Yes, I read, and yes, I know. I also know that members of the Intelligence committees and others sworn to secrecy about details and charged with guiding the decisions made by the rest of Congress have nevertheless reported that the intelligence info they were given was later proven to be as phony as everything the Bushwhackos told the American people.

I also know they only gave the Bushwhackos the authority to start their war of lies to pressure Saddam, and obviously, it worked about as well as everything else the Bushwhackos have done with just as much honesty about their motives.

As of 7/25/07 6:31 pm EDT, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and their criminal cabal are guilty of the murders of 3,640 (and rising) American troops in Iraq, with tens of thousands more wounded, scarred and disabled for life, and they are guilty of treason for shredding the rights guaranteed to every American citizen under the U.S. Constitution, the same Constitution they promised to uphold and defend under the oaths of their offices.

They should all be impeached by Congress and tried and convicted in the criminal courts of the United States of America.

THIS MUST NOT STAND!

Again, the intelligence had very little to do with the authority to go to war. The authority was granted so Bush could pressure Saddam into letting the UN inspectors back in. It worked. UN inspectors were let back in. But somewhere along the process, Bush decided to go ahead with the War anyways, because he felt like it.

This is why I hate it whenever I see people pandering to the left, especially Obama. He said that all the senators were wrong because they voted for the authorization. The senators were not wrong. They got what they wanted by voting for the authorization. Saddam let the inspectors back in. If Bush didn't go to war, then we would be looking back at the move, and we would be calling it a good move. The responsibility lies with Bush and his administration alone. Thats why Hillary keeps saying that if she knew that Bush was a misleading, senseless, warmongerring prick that we know him to be today, she wouldn't have voted for the war authorization.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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I think you're both right, Hacp and Harvey. Even as the admin was beating the war drums and the "gonna kick your butt in this election" drum, they were obviously making assurances behind the scenes and publically that the war resolution was necessary to pressure Hussein into allowing the inspectors back in.

None of it was the truth, at all. Bush had zero intention of allowing the inspectors to finish their job right from square one... The desire to invade had been there all along, extending from GW1, and the decision to conflate Iraq and 9/11 was made in the few days or weeks after that tragic event... a cynical and ruthless exploitation of the emotional needs of America...

A variety of initiatives by so-called enemies to enter into meaningful negotiations have been squashed by the Bush Admin and by Israeli meddling in American politics- like this-

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=11539
 

eilute

Senior member
Jun 1, 2005
477
0
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It's sort of the pot calling the kettle black. I mean, Hillary's experience in international relations amounts to little more that supporting the Iraq invasion. Seeing all the success that that has brought, I'm not taking her statements too seriously.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
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at the risk of being flagged as a Hillary fanboy, I thought this was a pretty insightful read...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...6/AR2007072601863.html

Strike Two

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, July 27, 2007; Page A21

For Barack Obama, it was strike two. And this one was a right-down-the-middle question from a YouTuber in Monday night's South Carolina debate: "Would you be willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea?"

"I would," responded Obama.

His explanation dug him even deeper: "The notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them -- which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration -- is ridiculous."

From the Nation's David Corn to super-blogger Mickey Kaus, a near-audible gasp. For Hillary Clinton, next in line at the debate, an unmissable opportunity. She pounced: "I will not promise to meet with the leaders of these countries during my first year." And she proceeded to give the reasons any graduate student could tick off: You don't want to be used for their propaganda. You need to know their intentions. Such meetings can make the situation worse.

Just to make sure no one missed how the grizzled veteran showed up the clueless rookie, the next day Clinton told the Quad-City Times of Davenport, Iowa, that Obama's comment "was irresponsible and frankly naive."

To be on the same stage as the leader of the world's greatest power is of course a prize. That is why the Chinese deemed it a slap in the face that President Bush last year denied President Hu Jintao the full state-visit treatment. The presence of an American president is a valued good to be rationed -- and granted only in return for important considerations.

Moreover, summits can also be traps if they're not wired in advance for success, such as Nixon's trip to China, for which Henry Kissinger had already largely hammered out the famous Shanghai Communique. You don't go hoping for the best, as Hillary's husband learned at the 2000 Camp David summit, when Yasser Arafat's refusal of Israel's peace offer brought Arafat worldwide opprobrium -- from which he sought (successfully, as it turned out) to escape by launching the second intifada. Such can be the consequences of ill-prepared summits.

Obama may not have known he made an error, but his staff sure did. In the post-debate spin room, his closest adviser, David Axelrod, was already backpedaling, pretending that Obama had been talking about diplomacy and not summitry with rogue state leaders.

Obama enthusiasts might want to write this off as a solitary slip. Except that this was the second time. The first occurred in another unscripted moment. During the April 26 South Carolina debate, Brian Williams asked what kind of change in the U.S. military posture abroad Obama would order in response to a hypothetical al-Qaeda strike on two American cities.

Obama's answer: "Well, the first thing we'd have to do is make sure that we've got an effective emergency response -- something that this administration failed to do when we had a hurricane in New Orleans."

Asked to be commander in chief, Obama could only play first-responder in chief. Caught off guard, and without his advisers, he simply slipped into two automatic talking points: emergency response and its corollary -- the obligatory Katrina Bush-bash.

When the same question came to Clinton, she again pounced: "I think a president must move as swiftly as is prudent to retaliate." Retaliatory attack did not come up in Obama's 200-word meander into multilateralism and intelligence gathering.

These gaffes lead to one of two conclusions: (1) Obama is inexplicably unable to think on his feet while standing on South Carolina soil, or (2) Obama is not ready to be a wartime president.

During our 1990s holiday from history, being a national security amateur was not an issue. Between the 1991 death of the Soviet Union and the terrorist attacks of 2001, foreign policy played almost no part in our presidential campaigns. But post-Sept. 11, as during the Cold War, the country demands a serious commander in chief. It is hard to imagine that with all the electoral tides running in their favor, the Democrats would risk it all by nominating a novice for a wartime presidency.

Do the Democrats want to risk strike three, another national security question blown, but this time perhaps in a final presidential debate before the '08 election, rather than a midseason intraparty cattle call? The country might decide that it prefers, yes, a Republican -- say, Sept. 11 veteran Rudy Giuliani-- to a freshman senator who does not instinctively understand why an American president does not share the honor of his office with a malevolent clown like Hugo Chávez.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Originally posted by: Harvey
THIS MUST NOT STAND!
You poor soul. You're a hopeless romantic for justice. The proles don't care enough to push for any such repercussions. It's an interesting thing, though, there are almost no repercussions for anything a top politician does. In China, sure, but here, not really. The Bush Admin exercised reckless negligence (at the absolute best) in selling this war to the American people. I can only assume that any private organization would punish such incompetence with a summary termination and yet he continues on unabated, quite oblivious to it.
Again, the intelligence had very little to do with the authority to go to war. The authority was granted so Bush could pressure Saddam into letting the UN inspectors back in.
That is absolutely, patently untrue. Intelligence had a LOT to do with it. Many people felt he had WMD there and that is why they supported it. This was sold to them by the government on multiple occasions. To pretend the war was authorized to force Saddam into compliance (which he was not in) is only part of the truth. There are plenty of countries not in comliance with the UN. The reason we cared about Iraq is because this noncompliance was tag-teamed by a supposed substantial WMD program.
I mean, Hillary's experience in international relations amounts to little more that supporting the Iraq invasion.
She was married to Slick Willy, though. I do expect she picked up some tips here and there. He was demonstrably more competent in international relations than Bush, that's for sure.

Anyway, Obama probably would be less effective than Hillary in this role, but she will still make some republicans commit suicide (like possibly entire cities worth), which is why I think we need to hear more from Biden. He's a bad ass and won't take an ounce of crap. Like a Republican. Except NOT a republican.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
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I don't think we can really ascertain the impact of this, at least not yet.

Obama may well have made a mistake with such statements, I certainly disagree vehemently with such a policy. OTOH, Billary is hardly a shining example of foreign policy experience/achievement.

In the end, money talks, and right now Obama has more of it.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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Originally posted by: eilute
It's sort of the pot calling the kettle black. I mean, Hillary's experience in international relations amounts to little more that supporting the Iraq invasion. Seeing all the success that that has brought, I'm not taking her statements too seriously.

Another innocent citizen misinformed by Obama's Propaganda. Hillary never supported going into Iraq without a full UN resolution. Her support for the war was soley support for our brave men and women fighting in Iraq.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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Originally posted by: Skoorb

That is absolutely, patently untrue. Intelligence had a LOT to do with it. Many people felt he had WMD there and that is why they supported it. This was sold to them by the government on multiple occasions. To pretend the war was authorized to force Saddam into compliance (which he was not in) is only part of the truth. There are plenty of countries not in comliance with the UN. The reason we cared about Iraq is because this noncompliance was tag-teamed by a supposed substantial WMD program.

Yes, you're right. We believed that there was a chance he still had WMD. However, the level of threats vary, and many senators believed that there was enough evidence to try to force Saddam into readmitting the inspectors, but not enough to go to war, unless he didn't comply with inspections.
 

eilute

Senior member
Jun 1, 2005
477
0
0
Originally posted by: Hacp
Originally posted by: eilute
It's sort of the pot calling the kettle black. I mean, Hillary's experience in international relations amounts to little more that supporting the Iraq invasion. Seeing all the success that that has brought, I'm not taking her statements too seriously.

Another innocent citizen misinformed by Obama's Propaganda. Hillary never supported going into Iraq without a full UN resolution. Her support for the war was soley support for our brave men and women fighting in Iraq.

Her support for the war was a vote that authorized Bush to forcibly removal of Saddam Hussein.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Krauthammer is one of the neocons originally behind the Iraq invasion. I think meeting those leaders would be a good idea, btw. It was the interpersonal diplomacy between Reagan and Gorbachev that delivered the end of the Cold war for example. What has our policy of not talking to Castro delivered?
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
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I think Krauthammer and Clinton would go together because she also believes that America has a duty in the world. Yep, Clinton is a neocon as well. I read it in the WSJ last week.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
You poor soul. You're a hopeless romantic for justice.

If that's what you see, I'm no poor soul. I'm one friend richer. :beer: :thumbsup: :cool:

I'm not an idiot, and I'm not blind to the reality of how difficult getting some change is going to be, but that's not a reason not to hope for better than what we've got, now. :(

My preference would be Al Gore with either Obama or Edwards for VP.

What would be better than having a Nobel Peace Prize nominee as a candidate for President?

Having a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate as President. :cool:
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Originally posted by: eilute
Originally posted by: Hacp
Originally posted by: eilute
It's sort of the pot calling the kettle black. I mean, Hillary's experience in international relations amounts to little more that supporting the Iraq invasion. Seeing all the success that that has brought, I'm not taking her statements too seriously.

Another innocent citizen misinformed by Obama's Propaganda. Hillary never supported going into Iraq without a full UN resolution. Her support for the war was soley support for our brave men and women fighting in Iraq.

Her support for the war was a vote that authorized Bush to forcibly removal of Saddam Hussein.

Again, Bush misused his authority. Its all spin. You can't go around blaming Hillary for Bush's mistakes.The buck stops at bush, and no one else(except the other republicans).

Again, this is what she said just before the vote.

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option...........

I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Obama caught red handed;he said a few days before the debate that he would meet with Chavez under certain conditions. What happened to the pre-conditions? I'm amazed how well Obama has been able to spin this story. Just like he spinned Hillary's vote, he has spinned her comments and essentially called her answer of,"But I certainly agree that we need to get back to diplomacy, which has been turned into a bad word by this administration" into Bush Lite.

``Under certain conditions, I always believe in talking. Sometimes it's more important to talk to your enemies than to your friends.''
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,219
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This administration has been so opaque and imperialistic that we don't have a choice. Do you really think he was implying that he would go hang out with Ar Chu Wan in a tent and roast marshmallows?

Rogo
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Originally posted by: Rogodin2
This administration has been so opaque and imperialistic that we don't have a choice. Do you really think he was implying that he would go hang out with Ar Chu Wan in a tent and roast marshmallows?

Rogo


The real crime is Obama's Karl Rovian spin on this issue, as well as issues like Hillary's vote for the authority to go to war.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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Kee-rist. Of course there will always be some sort of agenda, some generalized framework in which to have dialogue.

Today's problem, however, is that the Bush admin uses this whole song and dance about "conditions" to avoid talking at all, and to avoid addressing issues they'd rather not deal with, to stonewall, and to demonize anybody who gets in their way. They hide their regime-change and global dominance thru miltary means agenda behind a thin veneer of not so reasonable demands.

They've taken a "My way or the Highway" attitude both domestically and internationally, and even when they've failed have tried to claim victory. The situation wrt NKorea is a great example. In exchange for a return to the status quo existing prior to the Bushistas shooting off their mouths, they've agreed to greater recognition of the NKorean regime and to a framework that allows the NKoreans to keep the weapons they didn't have previously, resumption of fuel oil shipments, also to resumption of providing reactors... Having taken a ridiculous position and then caved completely, they call it a win, and are somehow believed... apparently able to slip this under the radar as the Iraqi situation deteriorates and as they're raving about the Iranians...
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
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..reminds me of the nativus of the carter admin. if he get's into a jam he'll refuse to come out of the whitehouse.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
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Originally posted by: SirStev0
Yep ignoring our enemies and acting uncivil is definately the way to go...

There has to be a medium. While ignoring our enemies and acting uncivil may be too far on the pendulum right, sitting down for coffee and doughnuts may be just a bit too far to the left...don't ya think?
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Yep ignoring our enemies and acting uncivil is definately the way to go...

There has to be a medium. While ignoring our enemies and acting uncivil may be too far on the pendulum right, sitting down for coffee and doughnuts may be just a bit too far to the left...don't ya think?

I personally think that the right is hurting Clinton on purpose, by supporting her view on the matter! I turn to Fox today morning, and see every person say that Hillary is right! Ugh, it makes me want to puke. The ploy is quite clever.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
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Originally posted by: Hacp
I personally think that the right is hurting Clinton on purpose, by supporting her view on the matter! I turn to Fox today morning, and see every person say that Hillary is right! Ugh, it makes me want to puke. The ploy is quite clever.

How ironic that Clinton's about-face and myriad of changes in position have now placed her so close philosophically to GWB that it is being used against her...

At any rate, I don't trust a word out of her mouth. So her daily position is really irrelevant to me.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
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Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Hacp
I personally think that the right is hurting Clinton on purpose, by supporting her view on the matter! I turn to Fox today morning, and see every person say that Hillary is right! Ugh, it makes me want to puke. The ploy is quite clever.

How ironic that Clinton's about-face and myriad of changes in position have now placed her so close philosophically to GWB that it is being used against her...

At any rate, I don't trust a word out of her mouth. So her daily position is really irrelevant to me.

Not really.Obama just moved far left, and put Hillary out in the center. However, some democrats think that the center is Bush-Lite.