I think I've settled on a camera: 450D (XSi)

[DrPizza]

Title pretty much sums it up. I've been looking and looking... reviewing threads here, etc. Can I really go wrong with the 450D? (kit listed at $899 at B&H; not avail til April)

I was also looking at the Nikon D40x. Between the Canon Rebel and Nikon, I liked the feel of the Nikon better in the store, but that's not that big of a deal to me.

Feel free to talk me out of the XSi and into the D40x. At least with the latter, I wouldn't have to wait edit: Or, I suppose, you could talk me into the D60.

 

[kalster]

d40x is available at certain best buys for 349, see if its in your area, at that price that is totally recommended

 

[foghorn67]

I'm almost positive you'll love the XSi. The kit lens that comes with that is pretty sharp. The D40x has a limited lens selection since their is no AF motor in the body.

 

[jpeyton]

How about an XTi + Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8? Should run you the same price as a new XSi + kit lens.

 

[Deadtrees]

When it came down to entry level cameras, I avoided Canon's offerings until 450D came along.
450D is just an excellent camera.

BTW, what's the price of 40D? If the gap is not significant, 40D woulde be better in terms of grip/control.

 

[ElFenix]

sorry i wasn't much of a help with this

 

[dug777]

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond60/page30.asp

The lack of a drive screw is only a problem if you're likely to be using primes in the future, if you're planning on sticking to zooms of any range then Nikon offers many superb AF-S lenses, and there's always Tokina/Tamron/Sigma in the wings...

Difference in kit price is currently ~$150 USD, as far as I can see, which depending on how you look at it is either a lot, or insignificant

The D60 VR 18-55mm kit lens is apparently a sharp & handy little number.

Of course, the D40X could save you a whole pile of cash either way

If I was going to buy a Canon (which I'm not), it would have to be the 40D at the moment, used someone's over Easter & was suitably impressed.

I've made my views on the 400D's viewfinder & ergonomics pretty well known, suffice to say I'm not a fan. I think these are incredibly important factors in buying a very expensive camera that you're likely to spend a significant amount of time using.

 

[jpeyton]

Tokina/Tamron/Sigma are all in the process of adding some sort of internal focusing motor to most of their new lenses, simply because the D40 continues to sell so well (currently 2nd place right behind the XTi).

*But*, I don't think the D60 is worth the price at this time, especially considering the relative steal the D40/D40x presents. I had a chance to use a friend's D40 this weekend, and it is perfect for someone that just wants to take pictures and let the camera do the work.

For example, here is something that caught my eye on DPReview Forums: Two D40s Go To Africa

The couple each had a D40, one with a Nikon 18-200mm VR, and the other with a 70-300mm VR. They left the cameras in "Auto" mode 95% of the time, and the out-of-camera results are excellent (no post processing applied).

I found the D40 to be far more comfortable in my hands then the similarly sized Canon XTi. You could get a D40(x) + 18-200mm VR for under $1000, and my guess is that most people would be happy with this all-in-one compact combo.

 

[Deadtrees]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Tokina/Tamron/Sigma are all in the process of adding some sort of internal focusing motor to most of their new lenses, simply because the D40 continues to sell so well (currently 2nd place right behind the XTi).

*But*, I don't think the D60 is worth the price at this time, especially considering the relative steal the D40/D40x presents. I had a chance to use a friend's D40 this weekend, and it is perfect for someone that just wants to take pictures and let the camera do the work.

For example, here is something that caught my eye on DPReview Forums: Two D40s Go To Africa

The couple each had a D40, one with a Nikon 18-200mm VR, and the other with a 70-300mm VR. They left the cameras in "Auto" mode 95% of the time, and the out-of-camera results are excellent (no post processing applied).

I found the D40 to be far more comfortable in my hands then the similarly sized Canon XTi. You could get a D40(x) + 18-200mm VR for under $1000, and my guess is that most people would be happy with this all-in-one compact combo.

I agree with what's said above. However, I think 450D is a better deal at this point as it's grip has gotton a lot better than 400D and that it has more features than D40, D40X and D60.

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: Deadtrees

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Tokina/Tamron/Sigma are all in the process of adding some sort of internal focusing motor to most of their new lenses, simply because the D40 continues to sell so well (currently 2nd place right behind the XTi).

*But*, I don't think the D60 is worth the price at this time, especially considering the relative steal the D40/D40x presents. I had a chance to use a friend's D40 this weekend, and it is perfect for someone that just wants to take pictures and let the camera do the work.

For example, here is something that caught my eye on DPReview Forums: Two D40s Go To Africa

The couple each had a D40, one with a Nikon 18-200mm VR, and the other with a 70-300mm VR. They left the cameras in "Auto" mode 95% of the time, and the out-of-camera results are excellent (no post processing applied).

I found the D40 to be far more comfortable in my hands then the similarly sized Canon XTi. You could get a D40(x) + 18-200mm VR for under $1000, and my guess is that most people would be happy with this all-in-one compact combo.

I agree with what's said above. However, I think 450D is a better deal at this point as it's grip has gotton a lot better than 400D and that it has more features than D40, D40X and D60.

Yeah, but looking at pricing.. it's hard to give up that savings, which can go nicely into some glass. The D40x can probably be had for better deals as the D60 gets pushed more.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: dug777
I've made my views on the 400D's viewfinder & ergonomics pretty well known, suffice to say I'm not a fan. I think these are incredibly important factors in buying a very expensive camera that you're likely to spend a significant amount of time using.

But we all know that we are talking about the 450D. Well, maybe you don't know that.
And you just won't lose on primes with the junior Nikon D's.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Deadtrees
I agree with what's said above. However, I think 450D is a better deal at this point as it's grip has gotton a lot better than 400D and that it has more features than D40, D40X and D60.

Basically the argument for either one boils down to:

a) Cheap Body + Nice Glass

vs.

b) Nice Body + Cheap Glass

vs.

c) Nice Body + Nice Glass

Ideally we would all be in camp C, but budgetary limits might make people decide between camps A and B.

 

[dqniel]

XSI + Tamron 17-50mm, Sony A200 + Sony 16-105mm, or Nikon D40 + Nikon 16-85mm would all be good. Depends on the features you want. If live view isn't important to you, I think the XSI is overpriced.

 

[Jawo]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
How about an XTi + Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8? Should run you the same price as a new XSi + kit lens.

That is what I have and I greatly enjoy it with the battery grip. I personally think that Live view is over rated, but Spot Metering would really be nice in certain situations.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: dug777
I've made my views on the 400D's viewfinder & ergonomics pretty well known, suffice to say I'm not a fan. I think these are incredibly important factors in buying a very expensive camera that you're likely to spend a significant amount of time using.

But we all know that we are talking about the 450D. Well, maybe you don't know that.
And you just won't lose on primes with the junior Nikon D's.

By persisting in sniping & personally insulting me in here you are in breach of the TOS :roll:

Even if you disagree with me, you can still behave like an adult.

The only thing he's likely to care about losing with the D60/40/x is the <105mm primes, since everything else is extensively covered by AF-S lenses and third-party glass.

The viewfinder on the 450D is still (relatively) small & still a pentamirror, and until I've actually played with one I've no idea how the grip has improved, but I have used previous XTis, and they have never held a candle to the x0Ds in either respect.

I will of course reserve my judgement on the 450D grip & viewfinder until I've held & used one, which is why I referenced the 400D. Since you haven't held or used a 450D either you/re in no better position to comment than I am

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: dug777
By persisting in sniping & personally insulting me in here you are in breach of the TOS :roll:

Even if you disagree with me, you can still behave like an adult.

The only thing he's likely to care about losing with the D60/40/x is the <105mm primes, since everything else is extensively covered by AF-S lenses and third-party glass.

The viewfinder on the 450D is still (relatively) small & still a pentamirror, and until I've actually played with one I've no idea how the grip has improved, but I have used previous XTis, and they have never held a candle to the x0Ds in either respect.

I will of course reserve my judgement on the 450D grip & viewfinder until I've held & used one, which is why I referenced the 400D. Since you haven't held or used a 450D either you/re in no better position to comment than I am

There were no insults thrown your way. I only suggested your Rebel hate clouds your judgement.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: dug777
By persisting in sniping & personally insulting me in here you are in breach of the TOS :roll:

Even if you disagree with me, you can still behave like an adult.

The only thing he's likely to care about losing with the D60/40/x is the <105mm primes, since everything else is extensively covered by AF-S lenses and third-party glass.

The viewfinder on the 450D is still (relatively) small & still a pentamirror, and until I've actually played with one I've no idea how the grip has improved, but I have used previous XTis, and they have never held a candle to the x0Ds in either respect.

I will of course reserve my judgement on the 450D grip & viewfinder until I've held & used one, which is why I referenced the 400D. Since you haven't held or used a 450D either you/re in no better position to comment than I am

There were no insults thrown your way. I only suggested your Rebel hate clouds your judgement.

'But we all know that we are talking about the 450D. Well, maybe you don't know that.'

That's juvenile sniping at it's finest

Contributes nothing constructive to the discussion, and most would argue to that it's derogatory at the least.

I certainly don't hate the x00D range, but I do see two glaring issues (to me at least) in at least the 350/400D.

If those don't bother people, then they're excellent cameras, and I have consistently praised the sensor on here.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: dug777

'But we all know that we are talking about the 450D. Well, maybe you don't know that.'

That's juvenile sniping at it's finest

Contributes nothing constructive to the discussion, and most would argue to that it's derogatory at the least.

I certainly don't hate the x00D range, but I do see two glaring issues (to me at least) in at least the 350/400D.

If those don't bother people, then they're excellent cameras, and I have consistently praised the sensor on here.

Specs say the viewfinder will be right on par with the 40D, or just shy of it.
But I guess if you add a smiley or a wink at the end of the sentence, insults are okay.
If I wanted to play your way, the "behaving like an adult" comment could be taken as insult. But I have thicker skin then that.
Again, the issues you described are subject to opinion. I shot all sorts of body styles for hours on end, and to me they are the same.
While all viewfinders with the exception of nice bright ones that come naturally on FF's have room for improvement, I never thought it was something in the way. Maybe it's because I don't shoot anything slower than 2.8.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: dug777

'But we all know that we are talking about the 450D. Well, maybe you don't know that.'

That's juvenile sniping at it's finest

Contributes nothing constructive to the discussion, and most would argue to that it's derogatory at the least.

I certainly don't hate the x00D range, but I do see two glaring issues (to me at least) in at least the 350/400D.

If those don't bother people, then they're excellent cameras, and I have consistently praised the sensor on here.

Specs say the viewfinder will be right on par with the 40D, or just shy of it.
But I guess if you add a smiley or a wink at the end of the sentence, insults are okay.
If I wanted to play your way, the "behaving like an adult" comment could be taken as insult. But I have thicker skin then that.
Again, the issues you described are subject to opinion. I shot all sorts of body styles for hours on end, and to me they are the same.
While all viewfinders with the exception of nice bright ones that come naturally on FF's have room for improvement, I never thought it was something in the way. Maybe it's because I don't shoot anything slower than 2.8.

It's a pentamirror not a pentaprism, which usually makes a big differnence to how bright it is, and small changes in magnification at the margin make a big difference, at least as far as I'm concerned.

We'll see how it turns out, but since you use the viewfinder to compose your pictures and to check focus, I consider it a very important aspect of a camera. It's a pleasure to shoot through a big, bright viewfinder which makes composition and focus checking easier.

As for a grip, again it just makes shooting easier and more fun if a camera feels comfortable in your hands, the 350/400D is very short vertically and I end up with basically a finger & a half dangling uselessly below the body. I also find the 'grip' to be very cramped for the ends of my fingers.

As for our personal disagreement, your initial reply to me in this thread was a piece of juvenile sniping which contributed absolutely nothing to this thread.

Telling you to 'behave like an adult' simply implied that your behaviour was otherwise. You should be able to disagree with me without having a crack at me.

 

[ElFenix]

pentamirrors aren't that dim. not sure where you get that idea. pentax guys say there really isn't much difference between the pentaprism DS and the pentamirror k100d. not to mention that the D40/x/60 also uses a pentaprism.

the D60 viewfinder is all of 12 sq mm lager than the 450D's. the 450D actually has higher magnification, the difference is the crop factor.

your fingers are supposed to wrap around the bottom and support the camera, not dangle uselessly. not that i could really tell much difference between the XTi and D40/x/60 in that respect. both have 'short' grips, and neither is particularly more/less comfortable than the other. maybe you have big hands.

both of you should stop sniping at each other.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: dug777
Telling you to 'behave like an adult' simply implied that your behaviour was otherwise. You should be able to disagree with me without having a crack at me.

No, it's condescending, and an insult. If you can't realize that, please stop playing police. You are doing nothing except ranting at EVERY DRebel thread.
This post is not a snip. I am merely stating my case that you can't call the kettle black if you are the pot.
I find it too odd that you base your rants on holding it for a few minutes. That is fine if that is how you select YOUR gear, but to peddle your ergonomic rants on camera recommendations to others isn't the best bet for advice.

 

[dqniel]

I have quite small hands and the D40 was much more comfortable to grip than the XTi.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: dug777
Telling you to 'behave like an adult' simply implied that your behaviour was otherwise. You should be able to disagree with me without having a crack at me.

No, it's condescending, and an insult. If you can't realize that, please stop playing police. You are doing nothing except ranting at EVERY DRebel thread.
This post is not a snip. I am merely stating my case that you can't call the kettle black if you are the pot.
I find it too odd that you base your rants on holding it for a few minutes. That is fine if that is how you select YOUR gear, but to peddle your ergonomic rants on camera recommendations to others isn't the best bet for advice.

I'm amazed that you have the gall to complain that you're insulted after you began this little tiff.

I have every right to offer civil and perfectly sound advice or comment in any thread I want, without you or anyone else insulting me.

At no stage in this thread have I ranted, or lied, I have simply presented my opinion, and it's not an opinion that is at odds with many others. If you don't like it, that's fine, but you don't have any license to insult me & snipe at me as a result.

The D60/40/x certainly only has a pentamirror, and it is noticeably darker and more tunnel like than the pentaprism in my D80.

I have used a D40 for a few 'shoots', and found it relatively comfortable despite being smaller than the D80, and my experiences with the 400D have indeed been limited to using them in store 3 or 4 times, but then my opinion on the D40 didn't change over that period, and neither did my opinion of the D80, or the 40D. I do have large hands however.

I'll wait to give a final verdict when I've held it and used it, and I'd suggest the OP did the same.

It's interesting that the D60 will very much 'bracket' the 450D, being quite noticeably cheaper than it, but then I guess Nikon & Canon have always done that...

EDIT: Remember that the OP has specifically asked us for our opinions here, and mine is no less valid or worthwhile than yours just because you happen to disagree with me.

My OP simply presented the D60 as an alternative, highlighted the dpreview review, and noted my prior comments about two particular aspects of the 450D's successor. Hardly inflammatory stuff in a thread like this.

 

[Aharami]

sheesh. take it to PM you two!

and OP, how could you be sure on a camera w/o reading a full review? Early specs look promising to me too, and i keep on telling myself that I'll be getting the 450D also. But honestly, i cant really be sure until i read some reviews and hold one in my hand

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: dug777

I'm amazed that you have the gall to complain that you're insulted after you began this little tiff.

I didn't start a tiff. I thought I was trying to bring back the topic to the 450D, or you were confused on the topic. If you were offended the mere suggestion that you were getting a little rant happy with the rebel series, you flew off the handle and threw the TOS at me.
There was nothing in there that voilated the TOS. No insults, no name calling.