I think I'm dealing with another scam buyer on eBay

[Ichinisan]

If you had said "IPHONE NOT INCLUDED" anywhere in the title or description I think my opinion would change, but that is not stated clearly anywhere and could easily be taken ambiguously as multiple people in this thread have said.

There is a maximum length for the title. After getting all the important info, I had something like 1 character remaining. Remember, I have to consider that people will not see the full description on mobile. It's more important than ever to include those details in the title, which used to belong in the description.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If you had said "IPHONE NOT INCLUDED" anywhere in the title or description I think my opinion would change, but that is not stated clearly anywhere and could easily be taken ambiguously as multiple people in this thread have said.

Exactly. Some people need to get out of their nerd / collector bubble, and realize, that MOST people in the "real world", need some help in understanding listings on ebay, if if the listing say "box" or "boxed" or "retail box" and says "accessories", but DOES NOT say anywhere, "box ONLY" or "phone NOT included" - well, most people consider that ambiguous at best, and misteading or scamming at the worst.

 

[CZroe]

If you had said "IPHONE NOT INCLUDED" anywhere in the title or description I think my opinion would change, but that is not stated clearly anywhere and could easily be taken ambiguously as multiple people in this thread have said.

The description goes even further by explaining exactly what he did with the phone and why he has a set of accessories with the box left to sell.

It’s pretty hard to miss but, like I said, the product name having “Plus” in the title makes it sound like a box for the standard model that includes a “jet black 256GB.”

It’s... unfortunate.

 

[CZroe]

Exactly. Some people need to get out of their nerd / collector bubble, and realize, that MOST people in the "real world", need some help in understanding listings on ebay, if if the listing say "box" or "boxed" or "retail box" and says "accessories", but DOES NOT say anywhere, "box ONLY" or "phone NOT included" - well, most people consider that ambiguous at best, and misteading or scamming at the worst.

It says that in multiple places and explains it to a level of detail even the most pedantic could be satisfied with.

Are you really insisting on that exact wording? This description went above and beyond that wording.

So, which is it: scamming or being in a naive collector bubble? You originally said scamming, which is demonstrably false but now you seem to be softening it up without officially retracting that unjustifiably inflammatory remark.

 

[purbeast0]

You two keep being stubborn. You have multiple people on a fairly educated tech forum telling you how and why it is ambiguous. I don't know if you are just looking for us to agree with your or what. Keep being in denial though.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Look, if I put up a listing for "Samsung EVO 860 250GB Retail Box". Can you tell me, without me telling you first - am I selling you a retail-boxed drive, or just a box? Can you tell UNEQUIVOCALLY from that title?

 

[Ichinisan]

Look, if I put up a listing for "Samsung EVO 860 250GB Retail Box". Can you tell me, without me telling you first - am I selling you a retail-boxed drive, or just a box? Can you tell UNEQUIVOCALLY from that title?

I know very well not to word it in the way you did. That would be deliberately vague and confusing. You know you are being disingenuous by using that example.

Try: "box for Samsung EVO 860 256GB"​

Now: Can you tell me, without me telling you first - am I selling you a retail-boxed drive, or just a box? Can you tell UNEQUIVOCALLY from that title?

I would say: Why, Yes! I most certainly can tell "UNEQUIVOCALLY" from that title.

Anyway, that's not the sort of item where people actually intentionally seek out and buy the boxes. There's no market for it. Speaking to "bubbles of ignorance" implication: Being unaware of the market demand for iPhone boxes doesn't mean the market isn't there. It's there. I'm aware of it. I cater to it. You ignore it. That doesn't make it go away.

 

[zinfamous]

The description goes even further by explaining exactly what he did with the phone and why he has a set of accessories with the box left to sell.

It’s pretty hard to miss but, like I said, the product name having “Plus” in the title makes it sound like a box for the standard model that includes a “jet black 256GB.”

It’s... unfortunate.

Honestly, that is a lot of fluff for a description that really only needed: PHONE NOT INCLUDED. No one cares which store you purchased it in, where it was located, ...I mean, the date you purchased it?

Does it not strike either of you as abundantly strange that you are being criticized for ignoring the most relevant information for what you seem to think is a pile of useful details for the purchaser? Really--no one needs to know that stuff. The provenance of an empty iPhone box is never going to need to be known by anyone.

This isn't some rare box art from an old nintendo game like you guys are familiar with. You're not trying to sell this to the same type of person that would buy your normal collectibles. This is one copy of roughly 30million + of the same paper thing that was mass-produced.

Personally, I have no problem with the title as it is. Maybe because I already know to scour any listing that I am interested in because I always assume I am being scammed....I just am. But I would want to see something bolded up there, like the phone not being included, because I could ignore most of the rest of it. Not knowing you or anything, going into that post, I would honestly interpret that amount of description, which ignores the 3 most important phrases, to be intentionally deceptive.

I'm not saying you were being intentionally deceptive, I just think you aren't appreciating how 99% or so of consumers will actually interpret that post. People tend to know what to look for.

 

[CZroe]

You two keep being stubborn. You have multiple people on a fairly educated tech forum telling you how and why it is ambiguous. I don't know if you are just looking for us to agree with your or what. Keep being in denial though.

Ichinisan was looking for advice on dealing with a possible scammer. Telling us how to make it more clear in the future is appreciated, but it’s not what he was looking for. I suggested that he ask the recipient to reject the package with “Return to Sender” for a refund when it is received. I was hoping one of you would suggest the same since he isn’t listening to me about it.

Can it be misinterpreted? Sure. I said as much. It’s not being stubborn or insisting otherwise to correct you or VirtualLarry where you misunderstand or are out-right wrong.

For Larry, I’m simply unwilling to accept his assumptive and demonstrably incorrect premise that it’s scammy to sell a box (with or without accessories). At the same time, I am willing to answer his presumptive/leading questions (“who the fuck would want to buy a box, without the product?”). He hasn’t retracted it. It’s inflammatory. I’m inflamed. If anyone is being stubborn, it’s him, for sticking to that sentiment in light of reality, examples, and a pile of evidence to the contrary.

You obviously feel like we are treating you the same way and “stubbornly” ignoring you. We aren’t. It was a simple correction or explanation here and there. Was I not supposed to point out that “box only” would be wildly inaccurate? Not only is that not true, but the bulk of what was being sold and the bulk of the value was in the accessories. When you said it wasn’t stated clearly anywhere in the listing, I showed one place where it was. I didn’t deny that it could have been even simpler. Being accurate isn’t the same as being “in denial.”

Look, if I put up a listing for "Samsung EVO 860 250GB Retail Box". Can you tell me, without me telling you first - am I selling you a retail-boxed drive, or just a box? Can you tell UNEQUIVOCALLY from that title?

Of course not. That title deceptively gives the name of the product you aren’t selling foremost with nothing to clarify. That is not what happened here at all.

You might have had a point if this said [256GB Jet black unlocked Apple iPhone 7 Plus Retail Box], but it didn’t. With the same level of scrutiny toward the title it does have you can definitely answer that question: “Can you tell me..?” It’s selling the “original box,” plus accessories, “for” something else.

Can it still be misinterpreted? Sure. I said as much. There’s only so much you can do there to convey all the information clearly, and I think it struck a really good balance except for the criticism I already had (+/Plus). Harping on that without a new or valid criticism is not getting us anywhere.

“Scammy” implies that we wanted it to be misinterpreted, which couldn’t be further from the truth. If that were the case then Ichinisan would have already had a plan of action for this and would be trying to stick it to the buyer. This would be exactly what we wanted and not some problem to consult the forum for advice to deal with it. Seriously: How else do you expect us to respond to that, especially when it’s so easily refuted and demonstrably wrong?

There is room for misinterpretation, such as where the phone’s name could be seen as a second “+” in the title. I think it’s exactly what happened. Ichinisan seems unreasonably sure that it’s a scammer. The point is: we agree on that. The remaining problem is your deliberate distortion.

Reaching/distorting only hurts your credibility, and yours deserve to be addressed. If you were more reserved and had valid criticisms like the one I pointed to then I would agree. Instead, you put us on the defensive either by showing just how willing you were to distort the circumstances or by showing how unwilling you are to back down from your knee-jerk assumptions when proven incorrect.

Instead of dialing it down, you dug in and decided to strawman us. There is nothing comparable in your theoretical SSD listing title. The potential misunderstanding you demonstrate was so basic that we very deliberately avoided that mistake. When you apply your same question to our listing title (“Can you tell me UNEQUIVOCALLY...?”) the answer is: Yes. I can. I can because we anticipated your question and made sure it was easily answered from the actual words used in our listing’s title. How could your SSD example be anything other than a strawman argument?

This must be reaching to stubbornly avoid recanting your inflammatory statement. Dial it down a notch if you want to have a productive conversation.

 

[Ichinisan]

Honestly, that is a lot of fluff for a description that really only needed: PHONE NOT INCLUDED. No one cares which store you purchased it in, where it was located, ...I mean, the date you purchased it?

Does it not strike either of you as abundantly strange that you are being criticized for ignoring the most relevant information for what you seem to think is a pile of useful details for the purchaser? Really--no one needs to know that stuff. The provenance of an empty iPhone box is never going to need to be known by anyone.

This isn't some rare box art from an old nintendo game like you guys are familiar with. You're not trying to sell this to the same type of person that would buy your normal collectibles. This is one copy of roughly 30million + of the same paper thing that was mass-produced.

Personally, I have no problem with the title as it is. Maybe because I already know to scour any listing that I am interested in because I always assume I am being scammed....I just am. But I would want to see something bolded up there, like the phone not being included, because I could ignore most of the rest of it. Not knowing you or anything, going into that post, I would honestly interpret that amount of description, which ignores the 3 most important phrases, to be intentionally deceptive.

I'm not saying you were being intentionally deceptive, I just think you aren't appreciating how 99% or so of consumers will actually interpret that post. People tend to know what to look for.

Date, just in case someone might have been specifically looking for a box or accessories from the launch window (verifiably). Those accessories got a lot of attention because Apple had just nixed the 3.5mm headphone jack. With 2018 models that start @ $1K MSRP, Apple made the stupid decision to exclude the $9 MSRP adapter. Perhaps someone out there wants to do comparisons.

I recall that Apple would sometimes revise the style of the 30-pin dock cables and other accessories during a product cycle. It might be useful to know, just in case someone happens to be looking for the earliest versions of certain items for comparison (like Apple's headphone dongle and Lightning EarPod headphones).

I also recall there were some physical changes to iPhone 4 almost immediately after launch. The switch from exterior phillips screws to pentalobe happened within days.

 

[CZroe]

Honestly, that is a lot of fluff for a description that really only needed: PHONE NOT INCLUDED. No one cares which store you purchased it in, where it was located, ...I mean, the date you purchased it?

Does it not strike either of you as abundantly strange that you are being criticized for ignoring the most relevant information for what you seem to think is a pile of useful details for the purchaser? Really--no one needs to know that stuff. The provenance of an empty iPhone box is never going to need to be known by anyone.

This isn't some rare box art from an old nintendo game like you guys are familiar with. You're not trying to sell this to the same type of person that would buy your normal collectibles. This is one copy of roughly 30million + of the same paper thing that was mass-produced.

Personally, I have no problem with the title as it is. Maybe because I already know to scour any listing that I am interested in because I always assume I am being scammed....I just am. But I would want to see something bolded up there, like the phone not being included, because I could ignore most of the rest of it. Not knowing you or anything, going into that post, I would honestly interpret that amount of description, which ignores the 3 most important phrases, to be intentionally deceptive.

I'm not saying you were being intentionally deceptive, I just think you aren't appreciating how 99% or so of consumers will actually interpret that post. People tend to know what to look for.

Should he have stated it more times? Should one of those times been even more simple? Absolutely. I never suggested otherwise.

I challenged the idea that it was scammy or not stated clearly once when it was stated multiple times in multiple ways.

As for the “fluff:” There’s a reason our listings for this kind of thing consistently outperform similar listings from other sellers who describe it the way you suggest (without all the fluff). Heck, even if it’s just because they can tell it wasn’t written by a volume seller and they are attracted to a more personal transaction... clearly, someone cares.

 

[Paladin3]

The listing is clear in what's included for anyone with basic reading comprehension, but eBay reaches literally millions of buyers and the chances are the someone will misinterpret your listing and think a phone is included. Way too many eBay sellers pull shit like this hoping to snag that idiot buyer and get them to overpay for a box.

Are you technically in the right? Yes. Are you morally in the right? IMHO...no.

Responsible sellers list items so there is absolute no misunderstanding about what's for sale. If that means you add ***BOX AND ACCESSORIES ONLY, NO PHONE*** in the title of the listing then you do so. Assume some buyers will spend only about 4.5 seconds reading your listing before they bid and write your listings accordingly. Or accept that situation like this will happen and buyers will back out. And we all know who's side eBay is on in these kinds of disputes.

And even if you do absolutely everything you can to avoid misunderstandings like this it will still happen on occasion. It's the price of doing business. Factor in the cost and adjust your prices accordingly.

 

[VirtualLarry]

For Larry, I’m simply unwilling to accept his assumptive and demonstrably incorrect premise that it’s scammy to sell a box. I’m simultaneously willing to answer his presumptively leading questions (“who the *** would want to buy a box, without the product?”). He hasn’t retracted it. It’s inflammatory. I’m inflamed. If anyone is being stubborn, it’s him, for stubbornly sticking to that sentiment in light of reality, examples, and a pile of evidence to the contrary.

It's not "inflammatory". Look, I have NO experience, INTENTIONALLY buying "just boxes" from people on ebay. My experience, is seeing high-demand items, around Christmastime, and having some mouth-breathing boot-licker (Edit: referring to the actual, bottom-feeding, ebay scammers, not you), list what seems (to a suspicious person), to only be "a box", whilst simultaneously, appearing to the naive to be the actual product in question. This is further reinforced, by the price being merely $10 cheaper than the actual new-in-box product.

Clearly, there ARE a LOT of "scammers" on ebay, some seeking to snag some unsuspecting newbie, with "a box", for sale for the price of the product, or maybe, a too-good to be true price, that gets a lot of attention.

So, maybe OP is not in those ranks, but I wonder, how much he realizes, he is treading a very fine line here, and IMHO, could have and should have, done more to make his listing unambiguous as to that fact.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You obviously feel like we are treating you the same way and “stubbornly” ignoring you. We aren’t. It was a simple correction or explanation here and there. Was I not supposed to point out that “box only” would be wildly inaccurate? Not only is that not true, but the bulk of what was being sold and the bulk of the value was in the accessories. It also explains why Larry inexplicably insisting on very specific wording is unreasonable and not a solution.

Oh, and you are just being argumentative here. If you have "accessories included", then yes, clearly stating "box only" would be incorrect". In that case, make it "box and accessories ONLY". Way to miss the big picture here, which was... you need to place some dis-ambiguating terms in the title.

Edit: And if the accessories were the important part, why not title it "iPhone accessories and box (only)"?

 

[VirtualLarry]

I just want to clarify something else, if it seems, or if I did, call you outright a "scammer", then I apologize, because what I intended to convey, was, the title of the listing, was AKIN or very similar to, posts that I see from people, that I would personally consider a "scammer". And I'll admit, the only real reason that I could fathom for buying up empty retail boxes for items, was to commit scams in the future, either retail return scams, or online sale scams, aka the fake CPUs from Amazon and Ebay and Newegg. (How do you think that they got those CPU retail packages? Hmm...?)

I never would have considered, buying a new retail box-only for a product, inserting a used/refurb version of the product, and giving it to a friend/relative as a gift, "as if" it were "new". Personally, I would find that deceptive and upsetting, if it happened to me. I value their honesty with me, far more than a gift.

 

[Hans Gruber]

To me it seems the buyer was a intended scammer and the seller was selling useless junk. I side with the seller but just barely. The buyer aka. scammer thought they were buying a iphone based on the description. If the buyer received an iphone they would have disputed the transaction. Who sells an original box with one accessory for $60? Because you needed the money...

 

[Ichinisan]

If you have "accessories included", then yes, clearly stating "box only" would be incorrect". In that case, make it "box and accessories ONLY". Way to miss the big picture here, which was... you need to place some dis-ambiguating terms in the title.

Unfortunately, there was just no room in the title to add another word (or character) without excluding the details for matching the correct phone to the box. I had to go with "Original box + untouched accessories for iPhone 7 Plus jet black 256GB unlocked"

 

[VirtualLarry]

Unfortunately, there was just no room in the title to add another word (or character) without excluding the details for matching the correct phone to the box.

Then it is at least partially ebay's fault too, for forcing overly-short titles. I've often been frustrated, when Newegg is selling something on ebay, and they just import the (longer) product titles from their own site onto ebay, and it truncates some fairly-important spec info, that isn't duplicated in among the individual product spec info listings. It happens.

 

[VirtualLarry]

And I'm also partially with @Hans Gruber , I think that it's possible that the buyer is or was a potential scammer too, by their wording.

 

[Ichinisan]

To me it seems the buyer was a intended scammer and the seller was selling useless junk. I side with the seller but just barely. The buyer aka. scammer thought they were buying a iphone based on the description. If the buyer received an iphone they would have disputed the transaction. Who sells an original box with one accessory for $60? Because you needed the money...

It's multiple new / unused / untouched accessories. Total MSRP for those items is $80. I didn't want to guess at the value for the box, so I didn't even factor that into the $60 buy-it-now price. I set the starting bid at $0.01, which I almost always do when I don't know the actual value of something. The buy-it-now option is supposed to disappear when there are bids. For some reason, it didn't disappear this time. Days after the buy-it-now option should have disappeared, someone bought it for $60.

 

[Rifter]

If you had said "IPHONE NOT INCLUDED" anywhere in the title or description I think my opinion would change, but that is not stated clearly anywhere and could easily be taken ambiguously as multiple people in this thread have said.

Except for, you know, not being listed in the phone section.

like wow people, this is listed in the accessories section, regardless of anything at all written in the title or description, hell even if they were blank, you would need to be a moron to assume this was a phone.

OP i would treat it as a complete transaction, tell buyer to screw off and call it a day.

 

[Ichinisan]

Then it is at least partially ebay's fault too, for forcing overly-short titles. I've often been frustrated, when Newegg is selling something on ebay, and they just import the (longer) product titles from their own site onto ebay, and it truncates some fairly-important spec info, that isn't duplicated in among the individual product spec info listings. It happens.

eBay really needs to show the description in-line with all the other listing details. Sometimes eBay plucks a couple random lines from the description and shows it in the spot where you would have to tap to see the full description. Sometimes those lines appear in the wrong order. Sometimes the excerpt implies exactly the opposite of what was said in the description.

eBay doesn't want to fix it. They want to be Amazon. They don't want individual listings anymore. They're trying to switch to a catalog system, so a customer can find a product entry and buy something without having any idea which seller it's coming from and without ever seeing a custom description from the seller. There have been many steps over the last year toward that goal.

 

[Hans Gruber]

eBay really needs to show the description in-line with all the other listing details. Sometimes eBay plucks a couple random lines from the description and shows it in the spot where you would have to tap to see the full description. Sometimes those lines appear in the wrong order. Sometimes the excerpt implies exactly the opposite of what was said in the description.

eBay doesn't want to fix it. They want to be Amazon.

Amazon aka. the drop shipper. I buy stuff on Ebay that shows up in Amazon prime packaging. This is known as drop shipping. A transactional relationship for the seller. So from one drop shipper, Amazon to another drop shipper, ebay seller.

 

[Ichinisan]

Anyway, I responded hours ago and accepted the return. I advised the buyer to try "return to sender" or send it back to me in the original condition. Of course, I'll have to inspect the contents of whatever comes back to me before I issue the refund.

 

[purbeast0]

Except for, you know, not being listed in the phone section.

like wow people, this is listed in the accessories section, regardless of anything at all written in the title or description, hell even if they were blank, you would need to be a moron to assume this was a phone.

OP i would treat it as a complete transaction, tell buyer to screw off and call it a day.

You realize how many people use eBay right? There are millions of morons on there.