I think a deep recession will be good for society.

[JMapleton]

We got into this mess by the financial irresponsibility of some people wanting to buy more than they could afford. People bought houses too big, and other refinanced and just spent the money on stuff they didn't need.

I think a deep recession will scare people into becoming more frugal in future years and this will in turn create more modest bull markets and more modest bear markets. These people making $50k a year and driving $30k cars will think twice next time and realize living paycheck to paycheck isn't worth it. Couple that with the regulations I'm sure commrade Obama will put on the financial sectors. Let's hope at least they're not too restrictive totally taking capitalism away completely.

Opinions?

 

[quest55720]

I wish that was true but Obama and the government will just bail them out. He has started by bailing out people who bough to much house. I am sure he will bail out those who bought to much car next or even have to much Credit card debt after that.

 

[Imdmn04]

$30k is like a V6 EX Accord these days with TTL. Not that much money for a car, plenty of people buy it on 50k salaries and live financially responsible lives.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Once the credit markets have thawed, people will continue to borrow to live beyond their means. The difference being is that the banks now know that the government will always be there to bail them out should they get their companies in a bind.

 

[KK]

I don't disagree with that at all. I just hope Mr. Obama doesn't fuck the country up too bad in the next 4 years, he's off to a stellar start.

 

[halik]

I really don't think that instant gratification is going away anytime soon.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Tell that to the folks that have been laid off and didn't do anything to cause this mess.

 

[Jack Flash]

Originally posted by: quest55720
I wish that was true but Obama and the government will just bail them out. He has started by bailing out people who bough to much house. I am sure he will bail out those who bought to much car next or even have to much Credit card debt after that.

Or, you could look at it and say he bailed out greedy bankers who lent too much dough.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Jack Flash

Originally posted by: quest55720
I wish that was true but Obama and the government will just bail them out. He has started by bailing out people who bough to much house. I am sure he will bail out those who bought to much car next or even have to much Credit card debt after that.

Or, you could look at it and say he bailed out greedy bankers who lent too much dough.

At least if we bail them out they can turn around and employ people interested in working.

If you just give it to people then what's the incentive to work? Or to live within their means next time? A society which appeals to the lowest common denominator is going to fail, and fast.

 

[ProfJohn]

The second the economy turns around all the people who have been saving and living on a tight budget will rush out to buy the things they have been putting off due to the poor economy.

 

[IronWing]

To the OP: Nope, banks will eventually go back to stupid lending and people will go back to stupid borrowing. The reason is quite simple. Banks made a ton of money off stupid people. CC debt is pure gold. Someone borrows 10k on CCs and defaults after several years of minimum payments, so what? The bank already got their capital back plus a decent return. The interest rate already reflected the risk. Bailing out the banks for poorly performing CC debt would be a colossal abuse of the taxpayer.

 

[Zebo]

Won't be good as cities turn feral. Won't be good for elderly and yutes. Won't be good as producers develop lock jaw and stop producing.

I don't know how things will turn out - we could have full blown communism/fascism/civil war/states succeeding, just a bunch of mess. I don't look at it as a good thing any which way you cut it.

 

[sandorski]

Regulation is what's needed. People forget too easily.

The bigger problem has to do with the US Economy as a whole. It has become a Consumption Economy that relies too heavily on People Spending Money. It discourages Saving and encourages Debt.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Won't be good as cities turn feral. Won't be good for elderly and yutes. Won't be good as producers develop lock jaw and stop producing.

I don't know how things will turn out - we could have full blown communism/fascism/civil war/states succeeding, just a bunch of mess. I don't look at it as a good thing any which way you cut it.

Texas can split itself into 5 states any time it wants and it would then have 10 senators. How conservative are the Texas senators?

 

[StageLeft]

It should educate but I am not sure it will. There were plenty of severe recessions in the 19th century, although with more regulations now plus a contemporary reminder of people's greed, maybe this would be the case.

$30k is like a V6 EX Accord these days with TTL. Not that much money for a car, plenty of people buy it on 50k salaries and live financially responsible lives.

Honestly, no, not really.

The second the economy turns around all the people who have been saving and living on a tight budget will rush out to buy the things they have been putting off due to the poor economy.

A lot of them will. Some people do change, though. I personally have found that frugality can be somewhat rewarding, almost like a hobby. Our cars, for example, are worth a tiny percentage of our household income and I take some sick level of pride in that. Ultimately, a long as people look for much of their happiness from their possessions, they will continue to overextend. The problem is partly impulsivity and partly a lack of meaning and happiness found in other avenues, ones which are free and ultimately more rewarding.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The second the economy turns around all the people who have been saving and living on a tight budget will rush out to buy the things they have been putting off due to the poor economy.

I think there is a kernel of truth to that, but on the other hand I think that at least a certain percentage of the population will have learned a lesson.

I know I have. I didn't really buy a bunch of shit i couldn't afford, except maybe an education, but I definitely learned about planning and how things can turn to shit in an instant.

I already knew this in relation to the people and forces within your own life, but I am more aware of external threats as well now.

How many generations that lesson survives is another question.


With all the bitter moaning and bitching about the lower/middle class and their poor decisions, I think that there is another group who weren't necessarily being greedy, but just didn't understand how fragile their position was. That or maybe they felt that living beyond their means (in one way or another, such as getting an education) was the only way to eventually dig their way out of the pit of poverty. (or various other scenarios) These people are fucked over and they really weren't doing anything all that wrong.

I think a lot of people learned a lot about financial management actually. I think the ones that won't learn the lesson are the ones who have nothing to gain from learning the lesson because they either don't know how to succeed in life or are incapable because of mental issues etc.

I just don't view my neighbors as these evil consumers as you try to portray them. They are human beings. Our society reinforces the fact that to have status , you must have status items. Knowing the right people gets you everywhere. In general, having a shitty car is not a boon to getting to know those who can help you move up in life. As much as I agree that they made really bad decisions by purchasing overly expensive cars etc, I understand the pressure that drives people to behave this way. The biggest problem is that while the poor attempt to emulate the rich, they don't have access to the resources that the rich generally had to get where they are. They also don't see what goes on behind the scenes. They only see the material goods that the rich obtain, not the methods that they use to get them. If they did, they might be in the same position. Its all a big game and ultimately "doing the right thing" can leave you fucked over and penniless. I'm not saying that it is not worth attempting to do the right thing, but I can completely understand why people find it so hard to do.

Obviously some people just make downright bad decisions, but this problem is affecting a lot of people, and I don't believe that its just those who "just didn't want to do anything with their life that are causing the problem". Everyone is a part of it, and to push all your hatred on the rich or poor is quite ignorant.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Regulation is what's needed. People forget too easily.

The bigger problem has to do with the US Economy as a whole. It has become a Consumption Economy that relies too heavily on People Spending Money. It discourages Saving and encourages Debt.

Well, now we finally know the true cost of the 90's boom. Much like the cost of the 20's boom. Wasn't so good for us after all, was it?

 

[heyheybooboo]

""We got into this mess by the financial irresponsibility of some people wanting to buy more than they could afford ...""

Fallacy and Fail

 

[Elias824]

Well now the middle class will just all have to get together and revolt against those evil poor and rich people, how dare they do stuff! were taking America back! now who wants to be the new Washington?

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The second the economy turns around all the people who have been saving and living on a tight budget will rush out to buy the things they have been putting off due to the poor economy.

I think there is a kernel of truth to that, but on the other hand I think that at least a certain percentage of the population will have learned a lesson.

I know I have. I didn't really buy a bunch of shit i couldn't afford, except maybe an education, but I definitely learned about planning and how things can turn to shit in an instant.

I already knew this in relation to the people and forces within your own life, but I am more aware of external threats as well now.

How many generations that lesson survives is another question.


With all the bitter moaning and bitching about the lower/middle class and their poor decisions, I think that there is another group who weren't necessarily being greedy, but just didn't understand how fragile their position was. That or maybe they felt that living beyond their means (in one way or another, such as getting an education) was the only way to eventually dig their way out of the pit of poverty. (or various other scenarios) These people are fucked over and they really weren't doing anything all that wrong.

I think a lot of people learned a lot about financial management actually. I think the ones that won't learn the lesson are the ones who have nothing to gain from learning the lesson because they either don't know how to succeed in life or are incapable because of mental issues etc.

I just don't view my neighbors as these evil consumers as you try to portray them. They are human beings. Our society reinforces the fact that to have status , you must have status items. Knowing the right people gets you everywhere. In general, having a shitty car is not a boon to getting to know those who can help you move up in life. As much as I agree that they made really bad decisions by purchasing overly expensive cars etc, I understand the pressure that drives people to behave this way. The biggest problem is that while the poor attempt to emulate the rich, they don't have access to the resources that the rich generally had to get where they are. They also don't see what goes on behind the scenes. They only see the material goods that the rich obtain, not the methods that they use to get them. If they did, they might be in the same position. Its all a big game and ultimately "doing the right thing" can leave you fucked over and penniless. I'm not saying that it is not worth attempting to do the right thing, but I can completely understand why people find it so hard to do.

Obviously some people just make downright bad decisions, but this problem is affecting a lot of people, and I don't believe that its just those who "just didn't want to do anything with their life that are causing the problem". Everyone is a part of it, and to push all your hatred on the rich or poor is quite ignorant.

A lot of common sense in this post. :beer:


We also need to understand that we live together as a society. As the saying goes, 'No man is an island'. If people are losing their homes around me then the value of my property is also falling (In actual fact my home is worth less than what we paid for it though still well above what we owe on it). If the rate of foreclosures slows down and the market stabilizes, my property value has stabilized as well. Just because I feel I have been responsible with my debt doesn't mean I will not be affected and therefore I shouldn't care about the others.

 

[TheSlamma]

OP I agree with you, but a couple things.

Americans always allow greed to let them forget any lessons learned. If we get into another market where people can get loans for money they don't have they will get them. Put off paying today what they can go bankrupt on tomorrow.

The other thing is this government wants to stop everyone from learning the lesson. And it's not just Obama, Bush and the Neo-cons are BIG into corporate welfare. McCain can hash on it all he wants, if he was elected we would see banks getting money just as Bush did.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The second the economy turns around all the people who have been saving and living on a tight budget will rush out to buy the things they have been putting off due to the poor economy.

I think there is a kernel of truth to that, but on the other hand I think that at least a certain percentage of the population will have learned a lesson.

I know I have. I didn't really buy a bunch of shit i couldn't afford, except maybe an education, but I definitely learned about planning and how things can turn to shit in an instant.

I already knew this in relation to the people and forces within your own life, but I am more aware of external threats as well now.

How many generations that lesson survives is another question.


With all the bitter moaning and bitching about the lower/middle class and their poor decisions, I think that there is another group who weren't necessarily being greedy, but just didn't understand how fragile their position was. That or maybe they felt that living beyond their means (in one way or another, such as getting an education) was the only way to eventually dig their way out of the pit of poverty. (or various other scenarios) These people are fucked over and they really weren't doing anything all that wrong.

I think a lot of people learned a lot about financial management actually. I think the ones that won't learn the lesson are the ones who have nothing to gain from learning the lesson because they either don't know how to succeed in life or are incapable because of mental issues etc.

I just don't view my neighbors as these evil consumers as you try to portray them. They are human beings. Our society reinforces the fact that to have status , you must have status items. Knowing the right people gets you everywhere. In general, having a shitty car is not a boon to getting to know those who can help you move up in life. As much as I agree that they made really bad decisions by purchasing overly expensive cars etc, I understand the pressure that drives people to behave this way. The biggest problem is that while the poor attempt to emulate the rich, they don't have access to the resources that the rich generally had to get where they are. They also don't see what goes on behind the scenes. They only see the material goods that the rich obtain, not the methods that they use to get them. If they did, they might be in the same position. Its all a big game and ultimately "doing the right thing" can leave you fucked over and penniless. I'm not saying that it is not worth attempting to do the right thing, but I can completely understand why people find it so hard to do.

Obviously some people just make downright bad decisions, but this problem is affecting a lot of people, and I don't believe that its just those who "just didn't want to do anything with their life that are causing the problem". Everyone is a part of it, and to push all your hatred on the rich or poor is quite ignorant.

A lot of common sense in this post. :beer:


We also need to understand that we live together as a society. As the saying goes, 'No man is an island'. If people are losing their homes around me then the value of my property is also falling (In actual fact my home is worth less than what we paid for it though still well above what we owe on it). If the rate of foreclosures slows down and the market stabilizes, my property value has stabilized as well. Just because I feel I have been responsible with my debt doesn't mean I will not be affected and therefore I shouldn't care about the others.

I am concerned with the longterm wellbeing of the people in our country. No discipline feels good at the time; but spare the rod spoil the country.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: sandorski
Regulation is what's needed. People forget too easily.

The bigger problem has to do with the US Economy as a whole. It has become a Consumption Economy that relies too heavily on People Spending Money. It discourages Saving and encourages Debt.

Well, now we finally know the true cost of the 90's boom. Much like the cost of the 20's boom. Wasn't so good for us after all, was it?

most of the problem was the 00's boom. you know, that mortgage bubble thing?

 

[miketheidiot]

anyways unless the savings bubble ends (which fueled the credit bubble) we'll just have another credit bubble.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: JMapleton
I think a deep recession will be good for society.

recession, maybe. deep recession? bad idea IMO