i swear... the misc@openbsd guys really get to me...

[xyyz]

they should simply say if you don't have an IQ over 150, don't bother posting here.

although, i really don't understand how they can be so intelligent to write a full paragraph to slam you than write 2 words to give an answer.

anyways,

if you read the FAQ on PF... the section that covers NAT and port forwarding, you'll see they use this mysterious interface called "tl0"

however, they make no mention of this interface being an internal or external interface... ANYWHERE in the documentation.

so i called notice to it... asking if someone could clarify things... maybe put a note somewhere as it will really help... well guess what happened...

instead of being told "external interface"... i was given the usual run of the mill $hit.

they really need to add something to the misc@openbsd FAQ that says... "if you dont want to help someone... just dont respond to them"



this gem didn't even understand what i was saying:

> Any clarification will be greatly appreciated.

I have not looked at the FAQ for a while so I'm not sure how wel it explaines the above, but if you want any help from this list you better start trying to find solutions yourself first, or you end up getting ignored. This list is tougher than a NY stand up (comedy) crowd.

> Thanks.

here's another (i'll give him some credit... he did help before throwing his a-hole response in):

>> I suggest you read up more on
>> general networking/firewalling techniques if you're not sure which
>> interface to translate on.

> If you understand networking/firewalling as you suggest, surely it's common sense to realize that an introductory discussion of NAT configuration
> would use the external interface as the default?

Actually, both of my replies were helpful. It's your choice to ignore the advice. I'm not sure what has caused you to become so defensive and insulting, but rest assured, you won't receive help from me again.

A$$hole.

insulting... well i told him that the common sense was different and that he didn't need to be so snide about things.

honestly... can someone actually tell me a good instance for posting on that listserv?

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

but if you want any help from this list you better start trying to find solutions yourself first, or you end up getting ignored.

Harsh, but the truth hurts. I heed this advice for any mailing list. Whenever *I* get some list message that asks some question that can easily be answered with a google/faq/etc, I just delete it. I only post to a list when there seems to be no hope for an answer -- not primarily out of fear of flames, but moreso out of wanting to find the answer faster. Getting a reply on a mailing list can take a lot longer than a bit of googling/rtfm'ing. Being super friendly and answering every newbie question is nice for the newbies, but it doesn't really help anyone in the long run IMO. As much as I dislike ESR, this is a pretty good read.

edit: and by the way, this has nothing to do with IQ; in my opinion, it has to do with immaturity. There is zero reason on a computer mailing list to stoop to the level of name-calling, and anyone who does is either an idiot (often the case), or just being unreasonable. But what you said to them may have been unreasonable too; I don't know. The moral of the story is that if you post intelligently, you will generally avoid idiots. If the idiots still appear, let them make idiots of themselves and just ignore them, or point out where they are wrong in an intelligent manner, which will also make them look like idiots (you have to make sure and not act retaliatory, otherwise you will have sunken to their level). </verbal diarrhea>

 

[xyyz]

well i definately didn't curse the guy....

it's not so much looking the an answer here. everyone claims that the OpenBSD document is the best of breed when it comes to documentation... however, here it clearly lacked something. it was totally unclear about the interface. i was simply shedding light on this fact.

i dunno, before these people talk rubbish about "noobs" i think they should make sure that all the answers can be found in the documentation that they tell you to refer to when they say "RTFM"

"Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offence. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy."

it's no wonder why so many nerk and geek snaps are made towards these people.... so social skills at all.

no one forces you to answer a question... and being a dick about it... simply means you got some serious social issues... and then they wonder why they dont have friends... imho of course.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

I agree, a lot of nerds have horrid people skills. I was calmly discussing some stuff with this guy via email and all of a sudden, when his lack of ability to communicate (and my inability to understand him) got the better of him, he decided that instead of trying to find out why he couldn't communicate his point to me, he would instead call me a "fscking idiot who can't read." I can only imagine how pleasant he is in real life.

 

[xyyz]

the thing though... for most of these guys... we're in the wrong for having asked the question. we get told off for doing something wrong in our communication and question. we haven't done enough research. i mean how much research is enough? you want us to go out and buy every book on the topic and then take a class and then read every google entry before you ask a question. with these non social sorts it's like a fraternity that looks out for one another no matter what.

i mean eventually it gets pretty ridiculous... where you're expected to "research" for a month before you ask a question.

these people forget that not everyone can understand the way most of these techno-philes explain things. hell... i think they have an issue understanding each other... but are so full of themselves that it's a serious knock their pride to ask what the hell someone's talking about.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Nah, it just makes sense to do a reasonable amount of research before posting. I think they usually have pretty reasonable expectations of the amount of research you should do. If all you do is post to mailing lists when you have *any* question, things would just get out of hand. Self-sufficiency is very important IMO.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Write better documentation.

Quoting from the FAQ:

While the above rule is correct, it is not recommended form. Maintenance could be difficult as any change of the external or internal network numbers would require the line be changed. Compare instead with this easier to maintain line (tl0 is external, dc0 internal)

 

[xyyz]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Write better documentation.

Quoting from the FAQ:

While the above rule is correct, it is not recommended form. Maintenance could be difficult as any change of the external or internal network numbers would require the line be changed. Compare instead with this easier to maintain line (tl0 is external, dc0 internal)

damn you!!! i hate when you make me look like an ass....

now don't go posting this on misc@openbsd... they'll start emailing me more crap. :/

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: xyyz

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Write better documentation.

Quoting from the FAQ:

While the above rule is correct, it is not recommended form. Maintenance could be difficult as any change of the external or internal network numbers would require the line be changed. Compare instead with this easier to maintain line (tl0 is external, dc0 internal)

damn you!!! i hate when you make me look like an ass....

Could have been added since you posted. I haven't checked

now don't go posting this on misc@openbsd... they'll start emailing me more crap. :/

I avoid misc@ because of the high crap content. The newbies list is QUIETER (aka a lot quieter), but I think flame free. The Pf list is fairly quiet too, but even Daniel (Pf's original author) posts there on ocassion.

Still looking at your problem, BTW. So if it hasn't been solved yet, it could be soon

Now if only the LCD hadn't broken on my laptop...
<- moron.

 

[Sunner]

I thought they were being pretty nice to you, Neophyte
Of course I didn't see what they mailed you off list...

 

[xyyz]

see that's where they sting ya... let's say for every one post there... i got 2 privately... and each and everyone of them kicked me in the teeth.

 

[jhu]

that's why you come here since people tend to be nicer.

 

[xyyz]

as someone who has done technical documentation... i must say...

that's a huge no-no on the FAQ's part. good documentation has terms defined ahead of time, not later in the document.

it's like writing a paper and mentioning an acronym on page 1 and then defining it on page 22. it makes no sense.

that's why you come here since people tend to be nicer.

of course... but i wasn't getting answers here or on ars or even on bsdforums... that's why i went there. :/

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: xyyz
as someone who has done technical documentation... i must say...

that's a huge no-no on the FAQ's part. good documentation has terms defined ahead of time, not later in the document.

it's like writing a paper and mentioning an acronym on page 1 and then defining it on page 22. it makes no sense.

You should volunteer to edit their FAQ then. Honestly, you can't ask much (or even anything, arguably) from people volunteering their time to write software and documentation.