I swear I've never seen more idiocy than talking about CAI's...well, 'cept gpus

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,225
136
On one of the GM truck forums I visit sometimes, fullsizechevy.com, there are numerous threads about hi flow air filters, CAI's and which is best, etc.

As a point of reference, Black Bear Performance, a tuner/performance part seller of some note, did a series of dyno runs to assess performance increases, or lack thereof, of CAI's and their hi flow air filters. The vehicle used was a bone stock 2008 Chevy Silverado 5.3L with 130,000 miles. The CAI's tested were the usual suspects.....K&N, Volant, AEM, CAI, Inc., and a ringer, the Airaid MIT (Modular Intake Tube).

When the dyno runs were completed, none of the CAI's with their wonder filters outperformed the MIT. Yes, the stock air box with stock AC Delco air filter, outfitted with the MIT, performed at least as well as any of the CAI's if not outright better.

The data: http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/...ependent-intake-test-results.html#post5605592

Now, given this empirical data, one would think the simple answer to any intake upgrade question, at least for full sized GM trucks, is an Airaid MIT and leave the stock air box and filter intact.

But, nooooo, even when presented the aforementioned data, one still sees comments like, "So, if I put an MIT on and then a drop-in K&N filter in, I should get even better performance, right?" Short answer....NO.

I guess it's just too much to expect someone of short attention spans to comprehend the data presented, that the major contributor to the performance increase when using a CAI or MIT on our trucks is the air tube, not the air filter.


Now, from that test data, it's gotten me to wondering if all the performance gains from using CAI's is simply from having a smoother flowing air tube vs. the usually restricted and convoluted OEM air tubes, and not the air filters at all. It'd be interesting to see if the data gained by Black Bear follows across other car lines/models.
 

WoodButcher

Platinum Member
Mar 10, 2001
2,158
0
76
LOL, yeah I see it all the time at my favorite auto forum. Some guys are adamant about their HP gains and performance increases.
The majority though realize the largest gains are made by the guy selling the CAI.
My '93 safari is getting a big boost in HP soon.
No CAI,
just cubic inches,
I just pulled a 350 from a donor today.
 

leper84

Senior member
Dec 29, 2011
989
29
86
Hopping up anything with a Gen III/IV GM motor is fun as hell. Stupid power for stupid cheap.

CAI are more of an application specific thing as far as gains. Since GM came out with the Gen III motors in pickups/SUVs in the late 90's/early 00's the factory paper filter and intake tubing have been way oversized, I'm not surprised people arent seeing any gain. Same issue with the 4th generation Fbodies, pretty much zero gain over the stock paper filter unless you were running a pretty nasty heads/cam setup.
 

KoolAidKid

Golden Member
Apr 29, 2002
1,932
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In reality, many people on car (and computer) forums get the most joy from the act of upgrading. Any performance benefits are clearly a secondary consideration.
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,391
1,780
126
Indeed....aftermarket parts (being sold as performance or not) are simply a product. People will buy anything if it looks different or cool....especially when the price is high enough that people ASSUME it does what's advertised. Air filters are an easy target because they're simple to replace and don't cost all that much. (less than $100 mostly, right?)

I fell victim to this fad on my Old Jeep Cherokee from the 90s....but sold my used K&N for what I paid for it after my Jeep was totalled. (actually, I sold my upgraded stereo and sound system for what I paid for it too!)
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
It comes from the old days, when manufacturers just slapped an air filter on top of the carburetor and called it good.
Today, engineers study what is beneficial and implement it (of course, balancing cost into consideration.) Having a good intake is a win for manufacturers in pretty much every aspect.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,408
10
0
I remember being caught into these discussions back 10-13 years ago, at the time when changing an air intake actually did something.

Now days, most stock intakes are as good as it gets.

Besides, +/- 10 HP or so is meaningless. Add a person into your car and it's offset.

Then the same people put heavy ass 18/19 inch wheels on their cars....and a heavy ass tire to go along with it.

:biggrin:
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,544
924
126
I remember being caught into these discussions back 10-13 years ago, at the time when changing an air intake actually did something.

Now days, most stock intakes are as good as it gets.

Besides, +/- 10 HP or so is meaningless. Add a person into your car and it's offset.

Then the same people put heavy ass 18/19 inch wheels on their cars....and a heavy ass tire to go along with it.

:biggrin:

Especially in a 5,000+ lb truck.
 

JCH13

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2010
4,981
66
91
The MS3 is a great example of butt-turrible intake plumbing being to blame for CAI power gains, so I would believe it could happen on other vehicles as well. The general rule of thumb (for an MS3) is about 15hp for just a SRI (short ram intake) and 25hp for almost any CAI. I read that as 15hp for better air routing and 10hp for getting colder air.

Is there something different about the Airaid construction? Is it stainless or plastic instead of aluminum? Looks like it makes fewer sharp bends than the other options and might have thicker walls or some coating that helps reduce heat transfer.
 

Harrod

Golden Member
Apr 3, 2010
1,900
21
81
I've never really understood getting one either, I remember once getting my oil changed somewhere on my Integra and hearing some guy say, "Hey if you get a CAI you will pick up about 20 hp". I believe my response was along the lines of, "It's actually 7 max during a 500 rpm window between 7600-8100 rpm".

I've never really understood getting something like that, the chances of hydro-locking the engine was probably the biggest reason that I didn't mess with them.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,140
138
106
I find it amusing that anyone tries to hop up a pickup in the first place.

Fun and easy to light up the rear tires since the bed doesn't provide much weight for traction. :awe:

That being said, I won't put a CAI on my truck. I'll do real mods first, like long tube headers, cams, heads or forced induction.
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,225
136
Especially in a 5,000+ lb truck.


It really gets your goat that some choose to drive SUV's and pickups as their daily drivers, doesn't it? And it'd get under your skin even worse if I told you I have a perfectly fine and nice 1995 Volvo 940 turbo as a second car and I choose to drive the pickup way more than the Volvo. The Volvo is nice, drives well....heck, I take it out at least once a week for a 20-30 mile jaunt, just to warm it up and stretch its legs.


About the MIT....its gains are from being a smoother tube internally, smoother bends, etc.


As far as worthless additions, c'est la vie. But if I can keep adding a few hp and ft/lb's of torque with a few bolt-ons without having to crack open the block.....like heads and cam, or resort to turbocharging, which adds a lot of $$ and complexity to it all, or deal with adding long tube headers while trying to keep the cats and the electronics intact (can be done but not exactly easy or cheap), so be it. 10 here, 10 there, it adds up in the end. Hate cracking open an engine.....it's never the same after that. And been there, done that decades ago. Out of my system now. I'll leave the port/polish, bigger heads, cams, etc. to the younger guys.

But I'm more looking for torque increases, not hp. Makes towing a bit easier. And in that vein, I'm looking to open up the exhaust with a Borla/GM Performance cat-back touring exhaust (worth maybe another 10hp, 12-15Ft/lb torque) and short tube headers (will lose most of the hp gains from the MIT and exhaust opening, but will add significant torque gains in the low to mid-rpm range, right where I really need it.)

Then drop off the clutch fan and add thermostatic controlled electric fans...worth a few more hp and ft/lb torque and quiet the engine down a bit.
 

Jimzz

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2012
4,399
190
106
Sad thing is many will fight these results no matter what.

I keep telling people to not run K&N filters but to be told "it feels faster..." or the one I have seen at this forum "I got XX% better gas mileage...".
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,745
6,173
136
Especially in a 5,000+ lb truck.

Pickups are the new SUV's, so get used to it. Go drive by the local dealers lot, most pickups now are four door short bed with mushy suspension. Almost entirely useless for anything but towing, and not very good at that.
And in case you didn't notice, they're also making them taller than ever before for that massive truck look, which also adds to their complete uselessness. Though you can now order a built in ladder so you can climb up into the bed and get bag of dog food out, and you can get side steps so you can actually see over the side before climbing the ladder to get in it.

I'm just a little bitter about it because they have destroyed the work truck. Now when I get a new truck I have to spend yet another $3k for a flatbed to make it usable.
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,656
3,521
136
A cold air intake alone is not going to give you an increase unless the stock system is horribly restrictive to begin with. The rest of the engine needs to be breathing better in order to see good gains.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,225
136
Pickups are the new SUV's, so get used to it. Go drive by the local dealers lot, most pickups now are four door short bed with mushy suspension. Almost entirely useless for anything but towing, and not very good at that.
And in case you didn't notice, they're also making them taller than ever before for that massive truck look, which also adds to their complete uselessness. Though you can now order a built in ladder so you can climb up into the bed and get bag of dog food out, and you can get side steps so you can actually see over the side before climbing the ladder to get in it.

I'm just a little bitter about it because they have destroyed the work truck. Now when I get a new truck I have to spend yet another $3k for a flatbed to make it usable.

I think you can blame Dodge for the bigger-bigger-bigger craze that's infected trucks. But those new Fords are just hideously large. Almost cartoonish.

I do hope my Silverado can tow...well, so far it's done right well. Better than our GX 470. Guess the longer wheelbase has its benefits. And I'll never complain about the truck riding civilly when unloaded....never.

But I grew up in a section of the country that's very truck "friendly". Darned near everyone has one or can lay hands on one in minutes. I'm still glad the buckboard ride of old is gone, tho.


Sad thing is many will fight these results no matter what.

I keep telling people to not run K&N filters but to be told "it feels faster..." or the one I have seen at this forum "I got XX% better gas mileage...".

Yep.....gotta have that K&N POS, no matter what you tell them or show them. The apologists and fanbois of those kinds of filters, and K&N fanbois are the worst, are damned creative at making excuses for the filters and at ripping apart any empirical data presented. I've seen stuff like "That test was done eons ago."---two years after the test was done and as if somehow time has invalidated the results. Or "The test was done on an industrial machine so that means it would only be valid for industrial air filters, not car air filters." Huh????


Anyway, guess people just like fattening the profit margins of companies for no reason other than noise and making their oil dirtier.
 

7window

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2009
1,533
1
0
I have seen pickup when the setup is right beats some corvette in 1/8 mile. Especially the turbo diesels.
 

BlitzPuppet

Platinum Member
Feb 4, 2012
2,460
7
81
I'd add Transmissions to the list of Idiocy talk. People always want to argue about which is "gay" and which isn't.

Spoilers too, but that's not so much the case anymore as almost every car has an "aesthetic" spoiler and are no longer geared towards performance.

I also remember a guy I used to race a bit back in highschool would drop his tailgate for "Aerodynamics", I actually think mythbusters proved that wrong.

Oh, and Ram Air...lol.
 
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JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,544
924
126
It really gets your goat that some choose to drive SUV's and pickups as their daily drivers, doesn't it? And it'd get under your skin even worse if I told you I have a perfectly fine and nice 1995 Volvo 940 turbo as a second car and I choose to drive the pickup way more than the Volvo. The Volvo is nice, drives well....heck, I take it out at least once a week for a 20-30 mile jaunt, just to warm it up and stretch its legs.


About the MIT....its gains are from being a smoother tube internally, smoother bends, etc.


As far as worthless additions, c'est la vie. But if I can keep adding a few hp and ft/lb's of torque with a few bolt-ons without having to crack open the block.....like heads and cam, or resort to turbocharging, which adds a lot of $$ and complexity to it all, or deal with adding long tube headers while trying to keep the cats and the electronics intact (can be done but not exactly easy or cheap), so be it. 10 here, 10 there, it adds up in the end. Hate cracking open an engine.....it's never the same after that. And been there, done that decades ago. Out of my system now. I'll leave the port/polish, bigger heads, cams, etc. to the younger guys.

But I'm more looking for torque increases, not hp. Makes towing a bit easier. And in that vein, I'm looking to open up the exhaust with a Borla/GM Performance cat-back touring exhaust (worth maybe another 10hp, 12-15Ft/lb torque) and short tube headers (will lose most of the hp gains from the MIT and exhaust opening, but will add significant torque gains in the low to mid-rpm range, right where I really need it.)

Then drop off the clutch fan and add thermostatic controlled electric fans...worth a few more hp and ft/lb torque and quiet the engine down a bit.

I was merely agreeing with Vdubchaos. ():)

Personally, I'd rather spend as little on gasoline as possible so I find trucks and SUVs completely worthless for the type of driving I do but if that sort of thing floats your boat it doesn't bother me.

Besides, you admitted here that it is a waste of money so it would seem that we are actually in agreement. :p

iStock_beer.jpg
 
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SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
Personally, I'd rather spend as little on gasoline as possible so I find trucks and SUVs completely worthless for the type of driving I do but if that sort of thing floats your boat it doesn't bother me.

You sure do a good job at coming across like it bugs the crap out of you :p

If that is just a ruse to push people's buttons and get a rise out of people, well played sir, well played.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,544
924
126
You sure do a good job at coming across like it bugs the crap out of you :p

If that is just a ruse to push people's buttons and get a rise out of people, well played sir, well played.

It only bugs me when they do something stupid... but that's true of anyone driving any vehicle. So yeah, I guess I do kind of like to push people's buttons. :p