To a person like me who just wants to hear valid points from both sides of the debate, it doesn't appear so in this thread.
Without getting flamed myself, let me ask you. Is it even possible to be opposed to homosexuality on the basis of morality without being "hateful?" At what point do we cross the line between expressing our ethical and moral opinions and shoving our beliefs down other people's throats? Maybe they are one in the same?
There are some beliefs that I personally believe will always be hateful, namely racism, sexism, and discrimination based on sexual orientation in employment and daily treatment. You are free to feel however you want about the morality of a genetic condition, and I respect that right greatly, but when your beliefs become the guiding policy of a diverse nation of 300 million people, they sure as hell better not be discriminatory against 5-10% of that population.
Calbear:
It's all in the way you do it. Done with tolerance and a lack of bigotry it is acceptable. But to make up some cockamamy "facts" to support one's moral position is, well, reprehensible standing alone.
-Robert
It's all in the way you do it. Done with tolerance and a lack of bigotry it is acceptable. But to make up some cockamamy "facts" to support one's moral position is, well, reprehensible standing alone.
-Robert
sounds just like you dude
you make up all kinds of bs about how homosexuality is a sin, when it's not. You twist the truth and say that homosexual acts are bad for (the mythological) "soul" of a human being causing pain and guilt and grief and illness, when the fact of the matter is the abuse from people like you that homosexuals endure is what is "bad for them" and causes them pain and grief.
Thanks for your honest opinion Orsorum.
In your case then, I think its not possible to be against gay marriage without being a bigot?
I just want to hear the arguments against homosexual sex and marriage because I think that minority voice in this forum is often drowned out by people who dismiss those arguments as hateful
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Robert,
I guess we're just interpreting their posts differently.
I do think the original question that was posed (before the off-topic back-and-forth flaming) was a valid one. How do we judge what is ethical and what is not? The government does (and should?) regulate based on ethical principles.
So how do we decide what is ethical? Is popular culture the right litmus test? 10 years ago, most would say gay sex is unethical. 10 years from now, this will be reversed. What remains constant is truth. So who decides this truth and what is it based on?
Anyway, I hope no one will flame me while I'm gone
Originally posted by: chess9
HappyHelper:
Nice logical post. Particularly the "bullshit" part.
I answered yes as well, but I'm afraid a lot of people aren't ready for yes.
-Robert
I don't know Robert, I answered the poll before work, and got in this fray early... at that point there were more "no's" than "yes's" but as of this moment there are 20 Yes and 19 No... so it's not as bad as either of us probably feared! Yay!!
Much more than that, liberal pagan. God only loves conservative Jews and Christians, which are perhaps 5-10% of Earth's population. All other heathens are destined to live in sin, die in sin, and suffer in eternal damnation, because they had the misfortune of being born as untermenschen, abberations of God's will.
Zephyr
Yes, i think Jesus was gay, he said to turn the other cheek... and everyone misunderstands what he meant by that
Hi, can you be opposed to being black on the basis of morality? White people used to do that, ya know. At what point do you cross the line from being a a concerned citizen to being a prejudiced bigot? Have you ever said felons shouldn't have the right to marry, or blacks shouldn't have the right to marry? You are definitely pinpointing one certain group of people and discriminating by attempting to prohibit them from doing something people in every other group are not prohibited from doing. Well maybe you aren't but I mean the people who are all about banning gay marriage are.
Originally posted by: happyhelper
Originally posted by: chess9
HappyHelper:
Nice logical post. Particularly the "bullshit" part.
I answered yes as well, but I'm afraid a lot of people aren't ready for yes.
-Robert
I don't know Robert, I answered the poll before work, and got in this fray early... at that point there were more "no's" than "yes's" but as of this moment there are 20 Yes and 19 No... so it's not as bad as either of us probably feared! Yay!!
it IS bad when this many are A-OK with marriage between a 30year old man and a 12 year old. "if they are consenting";
But that's not America, just a good marker of how 'progressive' the people of this board are.
the rectally ruptured tissues allow feces into the blood; constant need to repair and fight these infections leads to a weakened immune system.
It is questionable as to why this is true, but suiside rates among gays is much higher.
cirvical cancer is higher because of the sexual actvity, brest cancer because of not lactating, and lung cancer because of the much higher percentage of lesbians that smoke. why things are this way is questioanble as well, but the facts are still there.
some don't think so, but it's my view that pre-marital sex is why we have such high levels of STDs and teen pregnancy.
no, but it's a good idea to do what we can to discourage, rather than encourag, such things; on a side note i belive much of welfair encourages poverty
this is true, but because of the homosexual rupturing and bleeding aids and other blood-born illnesses' transference is 4times more likely in gay sex. But then the likelihood of lesbian transference is the same if not lower.
The governments of africa are discouraging non-monogomus sex there as well. Overall this is a culmination of the transferability of aids and the weakend imune system from homosexual sex.
that's good, and a utilitarian view on how to go at this is a very respectable one. Whatever informed conclusion you come to will be a respectable one... now to get other people on both sides to come to an informed conclusion insted of yelling "HOMOPHOBE" and "FAGOT".
[/quote]
No thats incorrect. God hate 100% of sin and loves ALL his creation.
He loves it so much He gave his son............ You know the story
Since when would a 30 year-old and a 12 year-old equal consenting "adults"? That would be a case of statutory rape and no one here supports that.
Enough with the rhetoric and flame-bait.
Same could be said of people who eat Mexican food or White Castles all the time! And, what about the great # of heterosexuals who practice anal sex?
You should be preaching safe sex all around, not discriminating solely against homosexuals.
Link(s) to back up that claim?
Again...let's see some data supporting your claims that you have apparently pulled out of your rectum.
Actually, many don't think so.
STDs and pregnancy are caused by lack of knowledge or lack of preparedness to have safe sex. Besides, teen pregnancies are declining.
http://www.dhhs.state.nc.us/pressrel/10-15-02.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/01news/trendpreg.htm
http://www.naral.org/facts/teenpregnancy.cfm (The Decline in Teen Pregnancy Rates: A Result of Abstinence and Contraception, Not Abstinence-Only Programs)
Wow...you're really deluded. Most would think it's lack of education and lack of personal resolve that encourages poverty.
Again, let's see some data backing your claim that gay sex is 4 times more likely to spread STDs. And, how do figure lesbians spread STDs at the same rate?
Ah...homosexuals are rampant in third world countries?
What the heck do you know about informed conclusions? Apparently, not a darn thing.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,858
- 6,394
- 126
Sandorski's Guide to Life:
1) If your Conscience, Religion, Philosophy, Holy Book, or Bubble Gum Comic is your guide to Life, live it.
2) You may express your view to others
3) You must allow others to Live according to their Life Guides
4) You may not impose your view outside your Person
1) If your Conscience, Religion, Philosophy, Holy Book, or Bubble Gum Comic is your guide to Life, live it.
2) You may express your view to others
3) You must allow others to Live according to their Life Guides
4) You may not impose your view outside your Person
I don't know of any state where you can marry a 12 year old. But you can marry a 13 year old in New Hampshire. In some cases it may be appropriate. The Bible has a teaching on the matter.
1 Corinthians 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
1 Corinthians 7:36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
If a 30 year old marries a 13 year old in New Hampshire then they are married and have the same rights as any other married couple and all the other states also will honor that. There is nothing wrong with a girl being married to a man that is the natural order of things and inline with biblical teachings also. There isn't any basis in the Bible to suggest that two men marrying one another would make their sexual behavior unsinful as there is for this other example you gave.
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/www/youth/tremblay/1930_95.html
http://www.fsw.ucalgary.ca/ramsay/homosexuality-suicide/Conference/f3.htm
Some disagree: http://www.gjne.com/hope robbins/Bob Larimer Testimony.htm
but then some say it's not because of anti-gay bias:
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/aug/02082605.html
both of those are highly bias views though; the best is to look at actual surveys:
http://www.hhpub.com/journals/crisis/1997/abstv18i1.html
not to mention other emotional trauma that being actively sexual in the homosexual community brings.
I was referring to anal sex, and the rupture is because the penile tears the soft-tissue of the colon, particularly the likelyhood of spreading desease.
http://idsc.nih.go.jp/iasr/24/278/tpc278.html
my one-stop shop for all the info i need on this:
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/
you wouldn't have problems with STDs or out-of-marriage children if extra-marital sex wasn't a problem.
your welcome to propose more libertine 'solutions' to the problem, but even condoms are properly used 5% couples will have children within a year; When used as normally by humans 15%;
This shows that the only 'safe' sex is monogamous sex.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/bc/condom.htm
this is OT, but if you are never encouraged to have personal resolve then you're going to lack it.
that has nothing at all to do with what I said. because the fact is still that:
http://www.nature.com/bjc/press_releases/press_release_38.html
you resort to ad-homonym attacks, after demanding sources when providing none except to say that extra-marital sex isn't 'all that bad if done right';
that you didn't question the obviously higher rates of cancer in homosexuals at lest shows that you know enough not to question the parts of my argument you know already are right.
http://www.aegis.com/news/bw/1996/bw960729.html
something I found on goggle:
Gay and Lesbian medical Association in a press release issued through Gay Wired on
June 10, 2002:
o Men having sex with men are at increased risk of HIV infection, a fact that is â??well known.â?? Also, the last few years have â??seen the return of many unsafe sex practices.â??
o Homosexual men use substances at a higher rate than the general population. This includes amyl nitrate (â??poppersâ??), marijuana, Ecstasy and amphetamines.
o Depress and anxiety effect homosexuals at a higher rate than the general population.
o Men having sex with men are at an increased risk of sexually transmitted infection with the viruses that cause the serious condition of the liver known as hepatitis, which can lead to cirrhosis and liver cancer.
o Sexually transmitted diseases occur in sexually active homosexuals at a high rate. This includes STD infections for which treatment is available (syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, pub lic lice) and those for which there is
no cure (HIV, Hepatitis A, B, or C virus, Human Papilloma Virus).
o Homosexual men are at risk for death by prostate, testicular or colon cancer.
o Homosexual men have higher rates of alcohol dependence and abuse than heterosexual men.
o Homosexual men use tobacco at much higher rates than heterosexual men, reaching nearly 50 percent in some studies. Tobacco-related health problems include lung disease, lung cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure and a host of other serious problems.
o Homosexual men are more likely to experience and eating disorder such as bulimia or anorexia nervosa, and overweight and obesity affect a large subset of the homosexual community.
o Homosexual men are at risk for human papilloma virus, which causes anal and genital warts, and plays a role in increased rates of anal cancers.
offline sources:
"Scientists Challenge Notion that Homosexuality's a Matter of Choice," The Charlotte Observer, August9, 1998.
Goldberg, Steven. When Wish Replaces Thought: Why So Much of What You Believe is False. Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books. 1994.â??Correlates of same-sex sexual behavior in a random sample of Massachusettshigh school students.â?? American Journal of Public Health 88 (2): 262-66,1998;Hershberger, Scott L., & Pilkington, Neil W. â??Predictors of suicideattempts among gay, lesbian and bisexual youth.â?? Journal of AdolescentResearch 12 (4):477-97, 1997; Jordan, Karen M., Vaughan, Jill S., &Woodworth, Katharine J. â??I Will Survive: Lesbian, Gay and BisexualYouthsâ?? Experience of High School.â?? Journal of Gay and Lesbian SocialServices 7, 4, 17-33, 1997; Schaffer, David & Fisher, Prudence. â??SexualOrientation in Adolescents Who Commit Suicide.â?? Suicide and LifeThreatening Behavior 25, supplement, 64-71, 1995; Proctor, Curtis D. &Groze, Victor K. â??Risk factors for suicide among gay, lesbian and bisexualyouths.â?? Social Work 39 (5): 504-13, 1994; Rotheram, Borus & Mary J., et al.â??Suicide Behavior and Gay-Related Stress Among Gay and Bisexual MaleAdolescents.â?? Journal of Adolescent Research v9 n 4 p498-508 October1994.)
and your sources? I'll take no-sources to mean you can finally agree that we do have an honest difference of opinion, instead of either of us being anti-anything bigots.
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