I suck at math

[EngenZerO]

2+2=5

 

[edmicman]

Why? If you don't need it for day to day living or for your job, who the F cares? Hell, I took a crap load of math classes for my CS degree and don't use any of it. I could probably do some basic calc...maybe...but why? I don't have to so its basically that much more useless knowledge that I had to deal with in school. Bah!

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: Gibson486
It's one of the reasons why some people are terrible at math. They just learn chapter 1, then go on to chapter 2 thinking it is a whole new subject.

ding ding ding! We have a winnar. That's been my problem. It sounds like I need a couple good tutorial books on algebra. Although I may still end up taking a class at a community college just because I'm lazy and have too many other good books to read this winter.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: dullard
Math is extremely easy (until you reach the PhD level that is, then it is extremely difficult - even masters level math is easy). For most people, they need to learn about 10 simple rules and they will be able to solve any problem they'll ever come across. Unfortunately, math has never been presented to them in that way. If you missed one of the 10 rules by the time you reached 8th grade, then you will have a horrible time at math and think you suck at it. In reality, you just had bad teachers. This happens to a LOT of people. Don't worry, you can always learn those ~10 rules with a little work.

WTF are you talking about?

he is somewhat correct, although, I thought differential Equations was hard. Everything you learn you already know. Like an intergal is just a summation. It's just the notation that makes it look hard. Once you get passed stuff like integrals, you only really don't learn anythign new.

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: edmicman
Why? If you don't need it for day to day living or for your job, who the F cares? Hell, I took a crap load of match classes for my CS degree and don't use any of it. I could probably do some basic calc...maybe...but why? I don't have to so its basically that much more useless knowledge that I had to deal with in school. Bah!

I wanna be like Ken Jennings and know EVERY FRICKIN THING IN THE WORLD!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!

Nah, I just feel incomplete. I like to know stuff, I like learning, and I feel like I should know basic algebra/calculus/whatever.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: dullard
Math is extremely easy (until you reach the PhD level that is, then it is extremely difficult - even masters level math is easy). For most people, they need to learn about 10 simple rules and they will be able to solve any problem they'll ever come across. Unfortunately, math has never been presented to them in that way. If you missed one of the 10 rules by the time you reached 8th grade, then you will have a horrible time at math and think you suck at it. In reality, you just had bad teachers. This happens to a LOT of people. Don't worry, you can always learn those ~10 rules with a little work.

WTF are you talking about?

he is somewhat correct, although, I thought differential Equations was hard. Everything you learn you already know. Like an intergal is just a summation. It's just the notation that makes it look hard. Once you get passed stuff like integrals, you only really don't learn anythign new.

Of course basic algebra and geometry applies to calculus, but the concepts you learn are entirely new. The stuff you learned in high school comes in when you're figuring out numbers/equations for those new concepts, but that doesn't make them any easier to understand on their own.

Don't forget, the series/sequence stuff you learn in multivariable calc has next-to-nothing to do with what you've been studying for the past several years, and Differential Equations is its own little universe IMHO.

And if there are 10 rules for all non-graduate level math problems, I'd like to see one of you post them.

 

[imported_cello]

Sound advice. I need to do something too. Never been that good at it but somehow always liked math.








dullard
Elite Member

Posts: 6591
Joined: 05/21/2001
Math is extremely easy (until you reach the PhD level that is, then it is extremely difficult - even masters level math is easy). For most people, they need to learn about 10 simple rules and they will be able to solve any problem they'll ever come across. Unfortunately, math has never been presented to them in that way. If you missed one of the 10 rules by the time you reached 8th grade, then you will have a horrible time at math and think you suck at it. In reality, you just had bad teachers. This happens to a LOT of people. Don't worry, you can always learn those ~10 rules with a little work.

Compare the ~10 things you need to learn to history where you need to memorize 10,000 dates or names. Compare it to foreign languages where you need to memorize 10,000 words. Compare it to computer programming where you need to memorize 1000 commands. In that context, math is pitifully simple to learn.

My suggestion. Go way back. Way, way back. I'm talking ~6th grade or 7th grade math (assuming you understand addition/subtraction/multiplication/division, if not go even further back). Take a course, get a tutor, or buy a book on pre-algebra. Focus 95% of your time on that. Once you understand pre-algebra, then you'll think all math is easy. Only when that is mastered, then consider going on...

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

For most people, they need to learn about 10 simple rules and they will be able to solve any problem they'll ever come across.

Don't forget, the series/sequence stuff you learn in multivariable calc has next-to-nothing to do with what you've been studying for the past several years, and Differential Equations is its own little universe IMHO.

And if there are 10 rules for all non-graduate level math problems, I'd like to see one of you post them.

#1 rule. Read a bit more carefully. Most people who come in here complaining that they suck at math are NOT doing multivariable calculus or differential equations.

Aside: if you don't mind numerical solutions, differential equation solution boils down to addition and multiplication, and thus the ~10 rules are all you need to know to solve the problem.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: dullard
Math is extremely easy (until you reach the PhD level that is, then it is extremely difficult - even masters level math is easy). For most people, they need to learn about 10 simple rules and they will be able to solve any problem they'll ever come across. Unfortunately, math has never been presented to them in that way. If you missed one of the 10 rules by the time you reached 8th grade, then you will have a horrible time at math and think you suck at it. In reality, you just had bad teachers. This happens to a LOT of people. Don't worry, you can always learn those ~10 rules with a little work.

WTF are you talking about?

he is somewhat correct, although, I thought differential Equations was hard. Everything you learn you already know. Like an intergal is just a summation. It's just the notation that makes it look hard. Once you get passed stuff like integrals, you only really don't learn anythign new.

Of course basic algebra and geometry applies to calculus, but the concepts you learn are entirely new. The stuff you learned in high school comes in when you're figuring out numbers/equations for those new concepts, but that doesn't make them any easier to understand on their own.

Don't forget, the series/sequence stuff you learn in multivariable calc has next-to-nothing to do with what you've been studying for the past several years, and Differential Equations is its own little universe IMHO.

And if there are 10 rules for all non-graduate level math problems, I'd like to see one of you post them.

I never understood what made multi-variable calc so hard. To me, it is just calc 1 and 2 with more varibles. I remember people complaining about lagrange multipliers...It's just algebra, how hard is it really?

And yes, Differential Equation is "its own little universe". I still have no idea what I learned in that class.

 

[bleeb]

Your probabaly won't be making a "great living" for long since your math skillz suck. I'd start worrying if I were you.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I still have no idea what I learned in that class.

Let me summarize what you probably covered:

1) Many differential equations can be solved by random guessing (trial and error). My classes always started here.

2) Many differential equations can be solved graphically. You probably drew vector fields and connected the dots. I could imagine many diff. eq. classes starting here then moving on to #1.

3) Many differential equations can be solved with tricks. Your class probably covered maybe a half dozen tricks. If you don't know the trick, look it up. In ~10 pages books will cover virtually any trick ever figured out. See the CRC book on chemistry for example.

4) For the rest, solve them numerically and your class may or may not have barely touched on that.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I still have no idea what I learned in that class.

Let me summarize what you probably covered:

1) Many differential equations can be solved by random guessing (trial and error). My classes always started here.

2) Many differential equations can be solved graphically. You probably drew vector fields and connected the dots. I could imagine many diff. eq. classes starting here then moving on to #1.

3) Many differential equations can be solved with tricks. Your class probably covered maybe a half dozen tricks. If you don't know the trick, look it up. In ~10 pages books will cover virtually any trick ever figured out. See the CRC book on chemistry for example.

4) For the rest, solve them numerically and your class may or may not have barely touched on that.

That's what I thought...I just thought there would be more to that class, so i overanylized the sh!t out of everything. Oh well, i got a B- and I am happy

 

[WhiteKnight]

Really what we are discussing here isn't even math, it's arithmetic. Math is more theoretical, like analysis for instance.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: dullard
Math is extremely easy (until you reach the PhD level that is, then it is extremely difficult - even masters level math is easy). For most people, they need to learn about 10 simple rules and they will be able to solve any problem they'll ever come across. Unfortunately, math has never been presented to them in that way. If you missed one of the 10 rules by the time you reached 8th grade, then you will have a horrible time at math and think you suck at it. In reality, you just had bad teachers. This happens to a LOT of people. Don't worry, you can always learn those ~10 rules with a little work.

WTF are you talking about?

he is somewhat correct, although, I thought differential Equations was hard. Everything you learn you already know. Like an intergal is just a summation. It's just the notation that makes it look hard. Once you get passed stuff like integrals, you only really don't learn anythign new.

Of course basic algebra and geometry applies to calculus, but the concepts you learn are entirely new. The stuff you learned in high school comes in when you're figuring out numbers/equations for those new concepts, but that doesn't make them any easier to understand on their own.

Don't forget, the series/sequence stuff you learn in multivariable calc has next-to-nothing to do with what you've been studying for the past several years, and Differential Equations is its own little universe IMHO.

And if there are 10 rules for all non-graduate level math problems, I'd like to see one of you post them.

I never understood what made multi-variable calc so hard. To me, it is just calc 1 and 2 with more varibles. I remember people complaining about lagrange multipliers...It's just algebra, how hard is it really?

And yes, Differential Equation is "its own little universe". I still have no idea what I learned in that class.

Multivariable wasn't bad at all if you understood Calc 1 and 2. It was the Taylor expansions and all that fun at the end that really stuck it to me though.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I still have no idea what I learned in that class.

Let me summarize what you probably covered:

1) Many differential equations can be solved by random guessing (trial and error). My classes always started here.

2) Many differential equations can be solved graphically. You probably drew vector fields and connected the dots. I could imagine many diff. eq. classes starting here then moving on to #1.

3) Many differential equations can be solved with tricks. Your class probably covered maybe a half dozen tricks. If you don't know the trick, look it up. In ~10 pages books will cover virtually any trick ever figured out. See the CRC book on chemistry for example.

4) For the rest, solve them numerically and your class may or may not have barely touched on that.

Yeah, Diff Eq. is a very elaborate game of guess-and-check. When equations happen to fall into certain forms, you can use characteristic equations, variation of parameters, etc. to get the solution. Its not plug-and-chug math like you get accustomed to in Calc.

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: bleeb
Your probabaly won't be making a "great living" for long since your math skillz suck. I'd start worrying if I were you.

Yeah, you're right, because we all know you're DA MAN and you KNOW EVERYTHING. Because you said I should worry, I think I just might. Just because YOU said so and of course you have connections with my boss and everything. You see me panicing?

This isn't about my job. This is about me wanting to become a better educated person. Yeah I kinda glossed over the math when I was in school and I haven't used it yet while I've been working. But at least I recognize that and want to better myself.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: bleeb
Your probabaly won't be making a "great living" for long since your math skillz suck. I'd start worrying if I were you.

sure man, I am sure every good paying job requires intensive math......:roll:

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
It was the Taylor expansions and all that fun at the end that really stuck it to me though.

I'd go back and learn those carefully if I were you. Very powerful starting point for solving all sorts of problems. I just finished teaching a chemical engineering computations class for juniors and maybe 90% of the techniques I taught started with the Taylor's series expansions. Adjust them with one or two steps and you can derive a numerical root finding algorithm, numerical multiple equation solver, numerical integration, numerical differentiation, numerical differential equation solver, numerical optimization finder, etc.

 

[notfred]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Those 10 rules - what would they be? I can't even think of THAT many!
1. What you do to one side, you do to the other.
2. Don't divide by zero or the universe will implode.

Well I've never written them out or really counted them. Those are two good ones. Lets see what else we can come up with:
3. Combine only like terms - Thanks to Mathlete
4. Commutative rules. a + b = b + a, a * b = b * a
5. Order of operations. Multiply first then add. <- pretty much covers all order of operation rules.
6. Adding zero is always acceptable and doesn't change the result.
7. What is the name of this rule? If a = b and b = c, then a = c.

Ok I'm about out of rules. There are probably a couple similar ones. If you know those ~7, then you can solve 99.9% of math problems you'll ever come across. Even a complete moron can apply those ~7 rules at random and eventually reach the right answer. But, sadly, math is never taught that way.

My wife had the same problem. She HATED math with a passion (she loves the Jimmy Buffet song, "Math Sucks"). She thought she couldn't do it. She took the minimal math in high school and wanted to avoid it at all costs in college (flunked the math entrance exam into the school). After a few years I encouraged her to take less-traditional math courses (voting theory, statistics, etc). These courses went back to the basics, covered everything she needed, and she aced them. Multiple professors called her in outside of class and tried to encourage her to switch majors to majoring in math since they said she understood it so well. And all due to a 5th grade math teacher who was horrible, she missed some of those rules, and thought she sucked at math.

How in the hell does that help you solve anything?

Solve any of these problems with those rules:
log(10)
sin (pi/2)
f(x) = 3x + 2, find f'(x)

Those are not Ph.D. level math problems, they should be easy to do wiuth your 7 rules, right?

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
It was the Taylor expansions and all that fun at the end that really stuck it to me though.

I'd go back and learn those carefully if I were you. Very powerful starting point for solving all sorts of problems. I just finished teaching a chemical engineering computations class for juniors and maybe 90% of the techniques I taught started with the Taylor's series expansions. Adjust them with one or two steps and you can derive a numerical root finding algorithm, numerical multiple equation solver, numerical integration, numerical differentiation, numerical differential equation solver, numerical optimization finder, etc.

Oh, I learned them, but it was an uphill battle the whole way. I just had a major learning block with them, I don't know... I think I was shot by a guy named Taylor in a previous life or something.

Edit: And yes, I know how useful they are, particularly to my CS minor which may soon become a major. Series expansions are a useful way of getting computers to do calculus.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: notfred
Solve any of these problems with those rules:

[*]log(10) Not a problem to solve. That is a definition.
[*]sin (pi/2) Not a problem to solve. That is a definition.
[*]f(x) = 3x + 2, find f'(x) Not a problem that 99.9% of people who think math sucks will come across.

Again, read my meaning. The typical person in a typical life that complains that math is never used will come across a small variety of math problems frequently. For example:
[*]What is the current balance in the checking account?
[*]If the recipe calls for 1/3rd cup of sugar and I'm cutting the recipe in half, how much do I use?
[*]How much fencing do I need to surround my back yeard?
Etc.

Like I said above, take an average joe off the street and the chance of him having taken differential equations or multivariable calculus is quite small. Those aren't typical problems that typical people come across.

But ignoring all of that, lets look at your last example: f(x) = 3x + 2, find f'(x). If you are doing this, there is a basic assumption that the person doing it knows what a derivative is. f'(x) = [f(x+dx)-f(x)]/dx as dx gets small. Thus all the person needs to know is how to solve this: f'(x) = [(3(x+dx)+2)-(3(x)+2)]/dx. Hmm, to proceed, we need to know addition, multiplication, communtation, and order of operations (see my rules above). If you don't have those learned, you cannot proceed. THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY SUCK AT MATH GIVE UP. They have no trouble with f'(x) = [f(x+dx)-f(x)]/dx, but with the algebra that follows.

f'(x) = [(3 (x + dx)+2) - (3 (x) + 2)] / dx
= [(3*x + 3*dx + 2) + (-3*x - 2)] / dx        Distribute the multiplication within parethesis
= [3*x + 3*dx + 2 - 3*x - 2] / dx      Order of operations to eliminate the parenthesis
= [3*dx] / dx      Adding zero doesn't change the result
= 3 * dx / dx       Order of operations
= 3        I added rule #8 above, multiplying by 1 doesn't change the result

 

[MySoS]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: notfred
Solve any of these problems with those rules:

[*]log(10) Not a problem to solve. That is a definition.
[*]sin (pi/2) Not a problem to solve. That is a definition.
[*]f(x) = 3x + 2, find f'(x) Not a problem that 99.9% of people who think math sucks will come across.

Well said you could do everything in math with just those 10 rules. Then do this. This is not a definition.

Prove 0*X=0, prove this. This is NOT a definition.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: MySoS
Well said you could do everything in math with just those 10 rules

I did NOT say every single problem in the world can be solve by using a few rules. I said 99% of typical problems by the typical person who avoids math could be solved by that person if he/she only knew those few rules.

Prove 0*X=0, prove this. This is NOT a definition.

We can go into philosophy, but to me that falls under the defintion of multiplication. I said in my posts above, that I assumed the person knows basic addition and multiplication. You learn in 1st grade that 0 times anything is zero. That is a definition. And proofs aren't solving problems. Proofs are related, but are completely different.

 

[MySoS]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: MySoS
Well said you could do everything in math with just those 10 rules

I did NOT say every single problem in the world can be solve by using a few rules. I said 99% of typical problems by the typical person who avoids math could be solved by that person if he/she only knew those few rules.

Prove 0*X=0, prove this. This is NOT a definition.

We can go into theory, but to me that falls under the defintion of multiplication. I said in my posts above, that I assumed the person knows basic addition and multiplication. You learn in 1st grade that 0 times anything is zero. That is a definition. And proofs aren't solving problems. Proofs are related, but are completely different.

It is not a definition, it theorm a theorm that must be proven. I think you said you could do everything in UG math with just these 10 rules.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: MySoS
It is not a definition, it theorm a theorm that must be proven.

Proofs are not solving problems. And yes you can treat it as a definition. I personally define x^0 = 1. I could also have a theory that x^0 = 1. Either way, I can solve my problems. This thread isn't doing proofs, or doing theoretical math. It is solving the problems that a person who thinks he cannot solve, actually can be solve if he learned a few things.