I still miss Colbert ... I wish we could get him back...

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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The Colbert superpac stuff was amazing.

It was, but rather ironic that educating people about the issue had no effect on the issue, because it actually is a huge problem.

Colbert might have made an error similar to Daniel Ellsberg in overestimating the effect of identifying a problem, who thought it was worth risking life in prison to expose the country's lies about the Vietnam war to try to bring it to an end, only to find the public reaction was a non-reaction and Nixon was re-elected in a landslide having failed to end the war as he'd promised.

Moral of the story, "That's why we can't have nice things." We don't exactly encourage such things, as Snowden, who also overestimated the effect of the information, would agree.

At least Colbert got paid (eventually quite well). And they were right to try, as they all still agree. And we're luck many still do good education, such as #dontdeportoliver
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,372
3,451
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Oliver is outstanding.

He often does a good job but can miss the mark at times and by a pretty far margin. Take his trashing of Payday Loans. Certainly makes for some good headlines and riles up the outrage but never touches on any of the academic research done by universities or the Federal Reserve on pay day lending. Studies that are easy to find. The results are far more mixed than Oliver portrays

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~jzinman/Papers/Zinman_RestrictingAccess_oct08.pdf
http://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2015/10/reframing-the-debate-about-payday-lending.html
https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/inside-the-vault/fall-2014/payday-loans
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Take his trashing of Payday Loans. Certainly makes for some good headlines

I'm not sure Oliver has ever had a headline other than the day recently when he lost his virginity. (Sorry, alluding to a joke he himself made.)

OK, your post might deserve an actual answer - if we still had a Discussion Club.

You're probably right that Oliver's rant was imperfect.

But how did it compare to all the rest of the media on the issue? Oh, the best, I suspect. And the payday lender industry is a very flawed 'solution' that's bribing politicians.

In fact, I highly recommend watching episode 2 of the excellent Netflix mini-series, "Dirty Money", with an incredible story about one particular payday lender and the harm.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,372
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But how did it compare to all the rest of the media on the issue? Oh, the best, I suspect. And the payday lender industry is a very flawed 'solution' that's bribing politicians.

In fact, I highly recommend watching episode 2 of the excellent Netflix mini-series, "Dirty Money", with an incredible story about one particular payday lender and the harm.

You can find plenty of media coverage on Payday Loans and nothing I have seen is ever positive. Most cover the same points of high interest rates and recurring loans to the same people. To that end I have zero doubt that there are locations\chains that are taking advantage of people and causing them financial harm. That is not necessarily different than other large business sectors and this one is huge with a lot of companies. To come down on an entire industry for its practices appears to be inaccurate. There is obvious support for the idea that well intentioned regulations have actually resulted in even more financial harm after lenders effectively left an entire state (My first link in the previous post). There is clearly a demand for these services so changes need to be carefully considered.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,738
451
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I know the OP did not mention at anything at all to this but I am a middle of the road guy. Some of Colbert's and John Oliver's "news" are incredibly biased, simplified, or sensationalized. They're not news reporters or journalists in anyway.

Let's be honest here, there's not a single unbiased and fair news source out there anymore. If you're going to be fed a pile of bullshit, it's nice to at least get a chuckle out of it once in a while.
 

Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
16,665
21
81
Let's be honest here, there's not a single unbiased and fair news source out there anymore. If you're going to be fed a pile of bullshit, it's nice to at least get a chuckle out of it once in a while.

Yes, but at least real journalist take the time to investigate and report. Comedians on TV just take from other journalists that put their credibility on the line and spin it for the laughs while mobs of people eat it up like they deserve a Pulitzer Prize. If you worked in Journalism, you would likely despise them for making fortunes of playacting public opinion with little to no risk to themselves.

Though I am glad you take it for what it is. People truly get their news from the Daily Show and Late Night which are even less reputable.
 
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Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
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You can find plenty of media coverage on Payday Loans and nothing I have seen is ever positive. Most cover the same points of high interest rates and recurring loans to the same people. To that end I have zero doubt that there are locations\chains that are taking advantage of people and causing them financial harm. That is not necessarily different than other large business sectors and this one is huge with a lot of companies. To come down on an entire industry for its practices appears to be inaccurate. There is obvious support for the idea that well intentioned regulations have actually resulted in even more financial harm after lenders effectively left an entire state (My first link in the previous post). There is clearly a demand for these services so changes need to be carefully considered.

Dirty Money on Netflix had a good episode on this. Taking buying beware to a whole new level; they justify it by people being ill-informed. Preying on the desperate and ill-informed is exactly why we have consumer rights laws.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
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Let's be honest here, there's not a single unbiased and fair news source out there anymore. If you're going to be fed a pile of bullshit, it's nice to at least get a chuckle out of it once in a while.

The whole idea of "unbiased" is basically nonsensical. Should we cover your local high school parade the same as a plane crash? Do the casualties from the rare plane crash deserve more coverage than the far more casualties daily on the roads? Oh my gosh, bias.

Is it bias to contrast trillions cut in taxes for the rich added to the public debt with trillions not spent on healthcare or education? Why, then it's true - just because it's at odds with a very 'corrupt' party? Trying to argue the issue just with the word 'bias' - or even 'fair' now that the word is poisoned by Fox marketing - doesn't really address the issue of good journalism.

How about the Vietnam war, when the media printed a lot of lies, did not print a lot of facts, and the times the media did tell the truth that was critical of the war, that was called bias? Or when the country wanted to have amnesia after the war, was the media right to give it what it wanted and not tell more truths? It's easy to yell 'bias', but it doesn't help in many cases.
 

DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
15,366
740
126
Oliver is outstanding. Any other opinion is like a 14 year old boy band fan saying "The Beatles suck." It's you, not Oliver.

Actually that show is for 14 year olds, who want to hate everything, oblivious to facts, just look at his side of coin and hate.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Dirty Money on Netflix had a good episode on this. Taking buying beware to a whole new level; they justify it by people being ill-informed. Preying on the desperate and ill-informed is exactly why we have consumer rights laws.

Yes, I'd mentioned that show as well.

More and more, it's more accurate to say "had" consumer rights laws. Republicans are trying to destroy, er have largely destroyed, the CFPB, for example.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Actually that show is for 14 year olds, who want to hate everything, oblivious to facts, just look at his side of coin and hate.

This is trying to argue with a Scientologist who thinks the world is nutty in not understanding how great Scientology is. It's hard to communicate. How many shows have you watched?
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,738
451
126
The whole idea of "unbiased" is basically nonsensical. Should we cover your local high school parade the same as a plane crash? Do the casualties from the rare plane crash deserve more coverage than the far more casualties daily on the roads? Oh my gosh, bias.

Is it bias to contrast trillions cut in taxes for the rich added to the public debt with trillions not spent on healthcare or education? Why, then it's true - just because it's at odds with a very 'corrupt' party? Trying to argue the issue just with the word 'bias' - or even 'fair' now that the word is poisoned by Fox marketing - doesn't really address the issue of good journalism.

How about the Vietnam war, when the media printed a lot of lies, did not print a lot of facts, and the times the media did tell the truth that was critical of the war, that was called bias? Or when the country wanted to have amnesia after the war, was the media right to give it what it wanted and not tell more truths? It's easy to yell 'bias', but it doesn't help in many cases.

What I mean by bias is when the media outlets aren't just relaying information, they're also extrapolating what impacts they believe will come from what they're reporting on (and usually just focusing on either the good or bad outcomes). For example, let's consider the recent changes in tariffs... all I want to know is what is being changed, by how much, and when it's going into affect. I don't want to hear "this will likely start an international trade war due to retaliation" or "this should bring work back into America and be a boon to our industries"... either statement is just adding their own personal spin on the same fucking news story.

Don't try and tell me if I should be happy or mad about the news you're presenting, just give me the data and let me think for myself.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
You can find plenty of media coverage on Payday Loans and nothing I have seen is ever positive. Most cover the same points of high interest rates and recurring loans to the same people. To that end I have zero doubt that there are locations\chains that are taking advantage of people and causing them financial harm. That is not necessarily different than other large business sectors and this one is huge with a lot of companies. To come down on an entire industry for its practices appears to be inaccurate. There is obvious support for the idea that well intentioned regulations have actually resulted in even more financial harm after lenders effectively left an entire state (My first link in the previous post). There is clearly a demand for these services so changes need to be carefully considered.

It didn't take them long to comply with the regulations in Oregon.
 

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
8,758
43
91
Hmmm. Wait, wasn't this about Colbert?

I'm old school Colbert fan - his 'This Week in God - God Machine' on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart was hilarious.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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I miss jon Stewart way more than Colbert.

You can still see Colbert in all his boring PC scripted self on his late show with the shittiest band I've ever seen in my entire life.

At least we still have John Oliver and Bill Maher though for now...
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,372
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
What I mean by bias is when the media outlets aren't just relaying information, they're also extrapolating what impacts they believe will come from what they're reporting on (and usually just focusing on either the good or bad outcomes). For example, let's consider the recent changes in tariffs... all I want to know is what is being changed, by how much, and when it's going into affect. I don't want to hear "this will likely start an international trade war due to retaliation" or "this should bring work back into America and be a boon to our industries"... either statement is just adding their own personal spin on the same fucking news story.

Don't try and tell me if I should be happy or mad about the news you're presenting, just give me the data and let me think for myself.

To expand on my point, the public largely has a sort of paranoia about "but the reporters are trying to push their personal opinions!" and that almost entirely misses the mark on what actually happens in terms of 'bias'. This notion that reporters run around wanting to put their personal biases into reporting is less than 1% of a 'bias' issue.

So what IS going on? There are three important 'biases' to be aware of it seems:

- The 'corporate' bias: the media companies are for-profit companies, and that now mostly drives their products, which is why a story that is 'sensational' or about conflict that will get more customers is of more interest to them than more 'boring' stories about important issues. For example, it's why there's a lot more coverage about 'who's winning' than issues in campaigns.

It also means in some cases warping coverage of things the company does have some interest in - a leading example being that the problem of 'money in politics' may destroy democracy, but it's not a problem for the media companies because much of the billions spent to buy public opinion goes into their pockets, so don't look for them to report on it as a problem for democracy much.

- It's mostly about 'marketing' - if a story is 'progressive' or 'centrist' or 'right-wing' in its 'bias', it's not because of any personal biases generally, but because the business has identified a market for reporting with the bias in question. In other words, it's mirroring the customers' own biases, not pushing 'personal bias'.

This is true in the case of Fox - which marries Roger Ailes who had always wanted to create "GOP TV" for his own bias, and Rupert Murdoch who saw a business opportunity to create an outlet that recruited customers by conning them that the rest of media couldn't be trusted and only their right-wing reporting was correct. And it worked quite well as a business.

MSNBC sort of stumbled into being the 'progressive' outlet, though a minority of their content is progressive, still carrying right-wing content like Joe Scarborough and ''right-centrist' like Andrea Mitchell and 'left-centrist' like Chris Matthews and so on.

Basically, what's happened is more honest figures have found themselves aligned with progressives; it largely started with Phil Donahue when he aired some people who questioned the Bush case for the Iraq war.

The network cracked down, assigning a network 'monitor' to limit his being able to do that, and requiring him to have two pro-war guests for each anti-war guest, and eventually even that wasn't enough for them and they cancelled his top-rated show for being too anti-war.

This continued as they experimented with some more accurate reporters who were willing to report things that were considered 'progressive'. It caught on reasonably well. Again the network came to balk at doing it and appointed a right-wing enforcer who cancelled some progressive and especially minority people, but ran into issues cancelling top shows.

Good ratings for shows like Rachel Maddow and Lawrence O'Donnell made it hard for them to cancel the shows - the executive essentially said he hated that they did so well he couldn't cancel them.

But while it's tempting to have a false equivalency between 'right-wing Fox' and 'the progressive shows on MSNBC', the accuracy and motives for them are quite different.

Fox has essentially always been a corrupt extension of the same donor agenda problem the Republican Party has been bought by, pushing an agenda to 'own' that part of the market, while the progressive shows on MSNBC are 'progressive' allowing for more opinion, but basically are 'honest' in the reporting honestly reporting the news as they see it.

To your issue about reporting 'just the facts', that is one desire you have the right to have, but it does leave out a lot of important news. A lot of Americans barely know what tariffs are, much less understand the effects and the larger agendas and issues involved with them. So it's not 'wrong' to report accurately on that though it's not what you are looking for.

And a lot of this is fairly subtle. For example, why not 'just report the facts' about the cost and length of the Mueller investigation and Republicans' statements claiming it's too expensive and too long?

Well, the context and history that each other major such investigation - Watergate, Iran-Contra, the fishing expedition against the Clintons, etc. cost a lot more, lasted over 4 yeats to Muellers 1.5, and in the Clinton investigation got a lot fewer results, have some use to viewers understanding the issue more and the agenda and inconsistent positions behind the statements.

The claim of 'liberal bias' is itself one of the great modern items of propaganda. It includes one study that was done showing reporters tend to have liberal political views - not looking at whether it was because they're better informed and those views are correct - and ignoring that the people who actually set the 'bias', editors and owners, are mostly right-wing.

But again, even there, it's not as much about the much smaller issue of 'personal bias' than it is about the business marketing at targeting markets and such.

The public plays an important role in media bias both by not supporting 'independent' media - like the British do with BBC news - and by showing more interest in 'bad quality news' and news that agrees with their bias than 'good quality news'.

There have been a couple of important changes in the industry.

One is that when there were only three main channels for news, so they had to server the general public, there was more concern about 'fairness', in theory at least - the left, center, and right all were the customers. And that sometimes meant 'telling people what they didn't want to hear'.

Now, there are an enormous number of outlets so that you can get the news you want to hear. The network channels have plummeted in their audiences.

Another is the media consolidation so that news is much less about the independence of the media with many independent owners, to where something like 90% of the media have about 4 massive corporate owners deciding the content.

This is no longer the press of the founding fathers, countless 'small town newspapers' independently holding the government accountable, but is rather a handful of corporate products driven by profits.

There are still 'good, independent' media sources available, and in fact I'd say better ones than we've ever had, but the public interest in them seems to be pretty low. How many actually watch "Democracy Now!" or read Vox and The Intercept and other good outlets over the big corporate products? Not that many. Money is harming news as well as politics.