I see a lot of religious threads here. Did you guys ever hear about Spiritism?

[mmazzariol]

Pretty interesting stuff. And free to download.
http://www.nasm.org.au/pdf/SpiritsALLEN KARDEC.pdf

 

[mmazzariol]

Key Spiritual points

The book concludes with the following summary of the most important points provided by the spirits:



God is eternal, immutable, immaterial, unique, all-powerful, sovereignly just and good.

God created the universe, which comprehends all beings, animate and inanimate, material and immaterial.

Physical beings constitute the visible or incarnate world; non-physical beings constitute the invisible or spiritual world, i.e., the spirit-world.

The spirit-world is the normal, original, eternal world; it is pre-existent to and survives everything else.

Ths physical world is secondary. It could cease to exist, or even never have existed at all, and that would not affect the essence of the spirit-world.

Spirits temporarily assume a perishable physical body, the death of which restores them to liberty.

Among the different kinds of physical beings on Earth, God has chosen the human species for the incarnation of spirits who have arrived at a certain degree of development. This characteristic gives the human species an ethical and intellectual advantage over other living species.

The soul is an incarnate spirit, the body its material envelope.

Human beings consist of the following: 1) a body, or physical being, similar to that belonging to animals and animated by the same vital principle; 2) a soul, an immaterial spirit incarnated in the body; 3) an intermediate link which unites the soul and body.

Human beings have, accordingly, two natures: animal and spiritual. Through the body, humans participate in the nature of animals, with which they share instincts. Through the soul, they participate in the nature of the spirits.

A link, known as the perispirit (or spiritual body), unites the body and the spirit. It is a semi-material envelope, as opposed to the fully material envelope of the body. At death, the spirit sheds the physical body, the grosser of the two, but preserves the perispirit or spiritual body. The perispirit constitutes, then, an ethereal body that the spirit can render visible, or even tangible, as in the case of spirit-sightings.

A spirit is not, therefore, an abstract being, a concept of thought. Rather, it is a real and well-defined entity that in certain situations, can be perceived by sight, hearing, and touch.

Spirits belong to different orders; they are not equals either in power, intelligence, knowledge, or ethical excellence. Those in the highest order are distinguished by purity, knowledge and love of goodness--they are the so-called "angels" or "pure spirits". The others are relatively more distant from this perfection. Those in the lower orders are inclined to most of our human feelings and may still take pleasure in wrong-doing. Among them are those who are neither very good nor very bad, but have malicious, mischievous or irksome natures. These might be classed as giddy and foolish spirits.

Spirits do not belong perpetually to the same order. They are destined to attain perfection and, as they do so, progress up through the different orders. This advancement is achieved through incarnations, which are undertaken either as special missions or as trials leading to purification. Physical life is an experience spirits must undergo many times before reaching this goal. These lives can be understood as cleansing exercises from each of which spirits generally emerge in a more purified state.

On leaving the body, the soul returns to the spirit-world, where it exists as a free-spirit (i.e., free from the limitations of the physical world) and where it will stay for an indeterminate time until it enters a new incarnation.

Spirits have many incarnations. From this we can conclude that we have all had many existences, and will have many others on Earth and elsewhere.

The incarnation of spirits only takes place in human beings. Spirits do not incarnate in animal form.

The chain of incarnations is always progressive. The spirit's speed of progress depends on its efforts, but it cannot regress.

The qualities of the person are a reflection of the incarnate spirit's. Consequently, a good person is the incarnation of a good spirit, and a bad person of a less advanced one.

The soul possesses its individuality before incarnating and will preserve it after the death of the body.

On returning to the spirit world, the soul meets those it has known on Earth. In addition, it gradually recalls the actions, both good and harmful, of its former lives.

An incarnate spirit is under the influence of matter. Those who surmount this influence through self-purification raise themselves nearer to the higher spheres. Those who give in to instinctual tendencies and pursue solely the gratification of physical desires are closer to the inferior realm.

Incarnated spirits live on different worlds throughout the universe.

Free (or not incarnated) spirits do not occupy a circumscribed space. They are everywhere, and both perceive and regularly associate with human beings. They constitute an invisible but active society that constantly interacts with our own.

Spirits constantly exert an inflence on both the physical and ethical environments of the Earth. They constitute one of the powers of nature, since they may act equally upon matter and thought. They are the cause of many sorts of previously unexplained or misinterpreted phenomena, which may now find a compelling rationale in the Spiritist Doctrine.

Spirits constantly interrelate with human beings. The good ones inspire people to take the high road, sustain them through trials, and instill in them courage and resignation. On the other hand, the less advanced ones inculcate sordid ideas and depressive thoughts. They take pleasure in our troubles and strive to make us like themselves.

Spirit interactions with human beings can be either suble or direct. The subtle communications happen without our awareness, generally in the form of inspiration. We need to exercise discernment, however, in distinguishing between the uplifting and the malevolent kinds. Direct exchanges occur through writing, speech, and other physical manifestations, usually with the intervention of amedium who acts as a link between the two worlds.

Spirits may communicate spontaneously or in response to human evocations. Generally speaking, all free intelligences may be evoked--from the most obscure to the most illustrious, from loved ones to enemies--regardless of the epoch in which they lived. If permitted, they may share information about their new situation, their thoughts regarding us, and any insights they feel like imparting.

Spirits move by laws of affinity. Advanced spirits take pleasure in assemblies with serious purpose, wherein members are animated by love and a sincere desire to learn and progress. Their presence repels less advanced spirits. The latter, in turn, find themselves at ease among frivolous and simple minds who come together solely out of curiosity or other harmful motives. In such assemblies nothing useful is produced. The spirits' suggestions are trifling, ill-natured, and deceptive. To make matters worse, they often borrow venerated names to impose their ideas more effectively.

It is easy to distinguish between advanced and less advanced spirits. The language of higher spirits is dignified, high-minded, and free from every trace of human passion. Their cousels breathe wisdom. Their aim is always the advancement of humanity. On the other hand, remarks by less advanced spirits make use of commonplace, sometimes coarse, language and often contain substantial inconsistencies. Although they sometimes make true and worthwhile statements, their observations are usually ethically flawed and full of false arguments. They play upon the naivete of their audience by feeding false hopes and swelling their listeners' egos. Obviously, enlightening communications can only be obtained in assemblies of a serious character where participants are united in thought and desire by the pursuit of love and truth.

The ethical teachings of the higher spirits may be summed up in the words of Christ: "Do unto others as you would that others should do unto you". In brief, do good to all and wrong no one. This principle of action furnishes humanity with a rule of conduct with universal application, from the most trivial to the most critical matters.

Enlightened intelligences teach that self-centeredness, pride and sensuality keep human beings engrossed in their animal nature. Accordingly, the person who detaches him or herself from wordly things and who practices "love thy neighbor" grows more spiritual. The spirits advise that we always serve others, as our means allow us, and that the strong and powerful owe assistance and protection to the weak. They caution that the person who misuses power to oppress his or her follow beings violates the laws of God. They also teach that in the spirit-world nothing can be hidden; that the hypocrite is unmasked and his or her wrongdoing revealed; that the unavoidable presence of those we have wronged on Earth is one of the trials we must face in the spirit world; and that the ethical state of spirits, depending on how advanced or unadvanced they are, gives rise in that world to enjoyments or suffering and regrets.

Further, they teach that there are no unpardonable faults and that there is no misdeed that cannot be redressed. Men and women find the means of redemption and progress through reincarnation. Their desire and effort set the pace of their advancement toward the ultimate aim of all--perfection.

 

[mmazzariol]

Finally, this is a list of questions you will find.
http://www.afterlife101.com/Sp_BookQuestions.html

Feel free to discuss if you check it out.
Would love to talk about it.

 

[alkemyst]

Why are you tagging Offtopic?

Enjoy your proxy.

 

[sandorski]

Has the same fundamental problem that plagues Theism, lack of Evidence.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Has the same fundamental problem that plagues Theism, lack of Evidence.

why is that a fundamental problem?
You really need to speak for yourself........you meant to say that it is a fundamental problem for you?
You cannot presume that this is a fundamental problem for everybody...

 

[Yuriman]

I'd say it would apply to me too, but it would be presumptuous to say it applies to everyone. I'd need some basis, some tie to the world to give it any real consideration. Without that it's just a cute idea.

 

[sandorski]

why is that a fundamental problem?
You really need to speak for yourself........you meant to say that it is a fundamental problem for you?
You cannot presume that this is a fundamental problem for everybody...

Any concept that has no Evidence to back it up is fundamentally flawed.

 

[Dessicant]

why is that a fundamental problem?
You really need to speak for yourself........you meant to say that it is a fundamental problem for you?
You cannot presume that this is a fundamental problem for everybody...

It is a fundamental problem for anyone who seeks to embrace the sole reality in which we live, utilizing the only faculty suitable for learning about that reality: Reason.

All other alternatives are forms of madness in varying degrees. And madness is a problem for everybody.

 

[JEDIYoda]

It is a fundamental problem for anyone who seeks to embrace the sole reality in which we live, utilizing the only faculty suitable for learning about that reality: Reason.

All other alternatives are forms of madness in varying degrees. And madness is a problem for everybody.

Umm no....not true at all!!
It is only a fundamental problem for those who seek to leave God out of the equation when it comes to embracing the reality in which we live.

You meant to say utilizing the only faculty that you claim to be suitable for learning about that reality: Reason.

Even then whose reason???

 

[JEDIYoda]

Any concept that has no Evidence to back it up is fundamentally flawed.

your opinion.....opinions are like assholes.....

 

[DigDog]

Key Spiritual points



God

do not want

 

[inachu]

why is that a fundamental problem?
You really need to speak for yourself........you meant to say that it is a fundamental problem for you?
You cannot presume that this is a fundamental problem for everybody...

Applies to people of saturn as well.

 

[Dessicant]

Umm no....not true at all!!
It is only a fundamental problem for those who seek to leave God out of the equation when it comes to embracing the reality in which we live.

You meant to say utilizing the only faculty that you claim to be suitable for learning about that reality: Reason.

Even then whose reason???

There is only one existence and one reality. The only way to learn about it is Reason. There is no God to put into "the equation", or any equation. I understand the affection for this form of compartmentalized madness, but I reject it personally. God belongs in the ZBI - the Zone of Benign Insanity. Benign, however, only in a free country where anyone who is too religious can be easily marginalized. In Syria, it would be a different story.

 

[Dessicant]

Key Spiritual points

The book concludes with the following summary of the most important points provided by the spirits:

God is eternal, immutable, immaterial, unique, all-powerful, sovereignly just and good.

Once we dispose of the insanity of this initial silly premise, the rest of this document becomes superfluous. In fact, the rest of this appears to be taken directly out of a Dungeons and Dragons playbook, where mythical creatures are invented and imbued with various qualities and quantities to facilitate game play.

The ethical teachings of the higher spirits may be summed up in the words of Christ: "Do unto others as you would that others should do unto you". In brief, do good to all and wrong no one. This principle of action furnishes humanity with a rule of conduct with universal application, from the most trivial to the most critical matters.

Jesus Christ said many stupid things, and the Golden Rule was one of them. The Golden rule is an HORRIBLE basis upon which to construct a rational moral code.

WTF? Did this idiot Dessicant just say Jesus Christ was stupid?

Yes. I said just that. And like anyone else, including Albert Einstein, Jesus said many irrational things that are objectively evil and should be discarded. You do not want to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That would imply that whatever subjective behavior, rational or irrational, good or evil, you decide to call acceptable to be done to you by others, allows you to externalize to others. Which is obviously insane.

So I will just state the obvious. The Golden Rule is irrational, and even stupid. Jesus Christ, if he said it, had a stupid moment for having said it. We should reject Christ's teachings that are irrational and destructive to human beings. We should scrutinize every one of his teachings to determine if they are rational and appropriate for life in Reality. We can adopt those that are rational, and discard the rest. And the rest, in this context, is going to be MOST of his teachings.

 

[mmazzariol]

Why are you tagging Offtopic?

I'm a noob. Sorry for that.

 

[mmazzariol]

Any concept that has no Evidence to back it up is fundamentally flawed.

Really interesting and reasonable. But let's remember even great and nowadays respectable scientists had theories that were based in intuition. Cosmos portrays a handful of them.

Spiritism accepts and encourages scientific methods :

"Science and Spiritism complement one another. Science without Spiritism is unable to
explain certain specific phenomena. The same applies to Spiritism. It would not have had
credibility without the confirmation by Science. "

(extracted from: http://www.sgny.org/pdf/03sspr.pdf )

Of course it's not for everyone. Probably nothing is, but it's just really interesting and the more I learn about it, more fascinated I get.

Anyways, not trying to force it on anyone, just saying it's a valid knowledge for me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[sandorski]

Really interesting and reasonable. But let's remember even great and nowadays respectable scientists had theories that were based in intuition. Cosmos portrays a handful of them.

!

True, however, until Evidence was gathered for those ideas, they were merely interesting ideas. They were not ideas to be accepted as Fact, just mere possibilities.

 

[Yuriman]

"Science and Spiritism complement one another. Science without Spiritism is unable to
explain certain specific phenomena. The same applies to Spiritism. It would not have had
credibility without the confirmation by Science. "

(extracted from: http://www.sgny.org/pdf/03sspr.pdf )

It seems to explain phenomena in the same way that I can explain to you how there are invisible elephants on Mars.

 

[MongGrel]

*looks for a 10 foot pole*

 

[mattpegher]

Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
1.true
2.false
3.unknown between true or false
4.being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.

The fallaciousness of arguments from ignorance does not mean that one can never possess good reasons for thinking that something does not exist, an idea captured by philosopher Bertrand Russell's teapot, a hypothetical china teapot revolving about the sun between Earth and Mars; however this would fall more duly under the arena of pragmatism[vague], wherein a position must be demonstrated or proven in order to be upheld, and therefore the burden of proof is on the argument's proponent.[citation needed] See also Occam's razor ("prefer the explanation with the fewest assumptions").

 

[mattpegher]

All discussion on the soul, regardless of belief of a creater god, are fraught with the Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
The practical equivalent in science are theories regarding unmeasurable particles, ie graviton. We have a theory that there exists something that explains certain perception, in this case gravity. In the case of science there may be mathamatic equations that can only be explained by theorizing this undetectable phenomenon. Then we try to find other evidence that these phenomena exist. Often the evidence is not direct. As we investigate further we change our theory.

Spritualism/spiritism and other neoreligious thought, have modified their theories to remove logical inconsistancies, however still remain unprovable.

The role of the consciencous atheist/agnostic, is to avoid the argumentum ad ignorantiam, and respectfully exclude logical inconsistancies, ie it cant be both white and not white.

Most published agnostic arguments hinge on the omnipotent, omnibenevolent god in a universe with evil. However more recent thoughts have brought into question the absolute nature of good and evil suggesting that these concepts are much more relative to human perception than we believe.