I really dislike whoever did the electrical wiring in my house

[Exterous]

I was doing some electrical work to fix some issues in the living room and turned off the appropriately labeled breaker. I then used my voltage detector to test a couple of outlets in the room. I didn't test all of them because why wouldn't you wire the whole room in series?

I'm sure you can see where this is going. I tested outlets on both sides of one of the outlets I was replacing and got nothing from the tester so I happily reached in there...and got a rather sudden indication that it was still active. So my tingly hand and I went back downstairs to find out which breaker that outlet was that was too good for its neighbors. Ah - the '2nd fl bedrooms' circuit. Of course! Why would I think it would have been on the '1st fl living\study' circuit? Makes perfect sense now.

This goes well with the downstairs kitchen lighting sharing the same circuit as the lighting for the two upstairs bathrooms (neither of which is over the kitchen) and the master closet which is not on the '2nd fl bedrooms' circuit with the master bedroom or the master bath circuit but is, instead, on the first floor 'familyroom\1st fl bath' circuit.

I wonder if some of this was actually done on purpose (more billing time\materials or someone is a sadistic bastard) as laziness can't explain it easily. They would have needed to run a notable amount of extra wire to get the two upstairs bathrooms on the same circuit as the kitchen because the bathrooms are on opposite sides of the house. The circuit for the master lighting appears very underloaded and is right next to the closet but the chose to run extra wire from the first floor family room instead 😵

 

[highland145]

Should I send my fil up to help? You remember, the one that has 7 breaker panels in his house.😀

 

[CraKaJaX]

The thread you initially posted of leaving the old house and moving into the new comes to mind. The pictures of the new house look great. You knew you had your work cut out, and now it's just uncovering those hidden treasures buried in the walls. Ever since that new house thread.... all I see are threads from you on problems with said house 😀

 

[echo4747]

I was doing some electrical work to fix some issues in the living room and turned off the appropriately labeled breaker. I then used my voltage detector to test a couple of outlets in the room. I didn't test all of them because why wouldn't you wire the whole room in series?

I'm sure you can see where this is going. I tested outlets on both sides of one of the outlets I was replacing and got nothing from the tester so I happily reached in there...and got a rather sudden indication that it was still active. So my tingly hand and I went back downstairs to find out which breaker that outlet was that was too good for its neighbors. Ah - the '2nd fl bedrooms' circuit. Of course! Why would I think it would have been on the '1st fl living\study' circuit? Makes perfect sense now.

This goes well with the downstairs kitchen lighting sharing the same circuit as the lighting for the two upstairs bathrooms (neither of which is over the kitchen) and the master closet which is not on the '2nd fl bedrooms' circuit with the master bedroom or the master bath circuit but is, instead, on the first floor 'familyroom\1st fl bath' circuit.

I wonder if some of this was actually done on purpose (more billing time\materials or someone is a sadistic bastard) as laziness can't explain it easily. They would have needed to run a notable amount of extra wire to get the two upstairs bathrooms on the same circuit as the kitchen because the bathrooms are on opposite sides of the house. The circuit for the master lighting appears very underloaded and is right next to the closet but the chose to run extra wire from the first floor family room instead 😵

1.) I'm sure your outlets are not wired in series but in parallel.
2.) The reason all outlets in a room should not be wired on the same circuit(breaker) is that should that breaker trip, you dont lose the whole room
3.) If anyone is thinking of doing any electrical work themselves .. please get a non contact circuit voltage checker at the very least. they are very inexpensive (less than $20) and available at home depot/lowes/ as well as an electrical supply store

 

[Ken g6]

A few years ago I worked on a light switch in a two-switch box. One light wasn't working so I tested the electricity from the other light. I got that turned off, but it took me more than one shock to realize the other switch was still live. Two different circuits in one switch box!

 

[DrPizza]

Been there. I had a basement light near the breaker box - the circuit went up the wall, to the ceiling of the 2nd floor (attic floor), across the house, and down the wall on the opposite side of the basement to where the switch was. I presume the reason was a result of cutting and splicing the circuits in the house over a span of 50 or so years.

Every inch of wiring in that house is new now. I agree with you, OP, on wiring, but I don't think it's widely done. If two rooms share a common wall between them, then it seems fairly common that both sides of that wall are on the same circuit. I prefer not to do that - separate circuit for each room; two circuits for a room in some cases (living room) where I consider that there might be more power demand in the future. E.g., I cannot fathom needing more than 1 circuit in a dining room or bedroom, but can fathom a need in a living room, e.g., a space heater for those especially cold evenings. I also prefer far more outlets than the minimum required in a room. For instance, in a bedroom, I put two outlets in each corner, one on each wall, anticipating that one or the other will be more difficult to access, depending on how furniture is arranged. Ditto the living room. It costs less than a cup of coffee to have each additional outlet.

Wire is cheap. Breakers are cheap. Electrical boxes and outlets are cheap.

 

[Homerboy]

Welcome to my house!
At this point, if I need to do any serious work, I pretty much just throw every breaker.

 

[ControlD]

1.) I'm sure your outlets are not wired in series but in parallel.

In my experience, I have seen more outlets wired in series than in parallel. I'm not sure if that is just due to the age of the houses I have worked on or if it is common to this area, but I would say 90% of the outlets I have worked on are wired in series.

In regards to the OP, I have the same types of issues in my house as well. I just make sure to test every circuit I plan on touching. If I find something odd I make sure to make a note on the breaker box for future reference.

 

[Eug]

I would be annoyed if all the rooms were wired completely daisy-chained. Sure, it costs more to use completely separate circuits, but IMO it's better for the homeowner for many situations.

This is esp. true in rooms with a lot of electronics IMO, or for example a home theatre with speakers and a subwoofer that might draw a big number of amps.

My house mostly has multiple circuits per room, but SOME of the outlets are daisy-chained. I think this is a good compromise.

As for the labeling, are you sure somebody didn't just double-tap the circuit breaker? That would be bad, but it gets done all the time. Or did someone just move around the circuits and and was too lazy to relabel the breakers? BTW, if your circuit breaker is double-tapped, you can correct this without having to buy a new breaker. What I did in my house was simply to pigtail them. Costs about $1 in wire and wire nuts. I did this because I'm running out of room in the panel for new breakers. (The panel already has a number of tandem breakers.)

*Note: I am not an electrician.

 

[DrPizza]

1.) I'm sure your outlets are not wired in series but in parallel.
2.) The reason all outlets in a room should not be wired on the same circuit(breaker) is that should that breaker trip, you dont lose the whole room
3.) If anyone is thinking of doing any electrical work themselves .. please get a non contact circuit voltage checker at the very least. they are very inexpensive (less than $20) and available at home depot/lowes/ as well as an electrical supply store

I especially agree with #3. Seems silly to check the adjacent outlets and not the outlet you're working on. And always test that voltage checker on a known live circuit, before you discover it's the batteries that are dead, and not the circuit. For #1, I'm pretty sure the OP meant "daisy chained." And, I'm not quite sure of the point for #2. Ceiling lights should be on a separate circuit; I'm not sure if that's required by code for most rooms, but the lighting in a kitchen is required to be on a separate circuit from the outlets (which must be two GFI protect circuits for counters, etc.) While I understand your point, a counterpoint is that it makes trouble-shooting and solving a problem much simpler. Unplug everything in that room, and plug things in one at a time until you discover the source of the problem. Further, in my opinion, in case of an emergency, it makes the turning off power to a particular area much more certain. The OP shouldn't have been shocked, but you can understand if there was an electrical problem, rather than the work he was doing - some sort of device doing something very unwanted and you didn't want to even touch the plug - in the OPs case, he would have turned off the wrong circuit and the problem would have lingered longer. If it's a matter of not having ceiling lights and relying on other lighting, then you're relying on there being more than one light, and them coincidentally being plugged into opposite circuits.

 

[DrPizza]

In my experience, I have seen more outlets wired in series than in parallel. I'm not sure if that is just due to the age of the houses I have worked on or if it is common to this area, but I would say 90% of the outlets I have worked on are wired in series.

I just responded to this, but if your circuits are wired in series, then if you're using 2 appliances, they each get 60 volts. 😛 E.g., lights would only get 1/4 of the power & would be much dimmer than if they were wired in parallel.

Parallel circuits - voltage is the same across the circuit everywhere. You mean, daisy-chained. Though it's easy to understand what you and the OP mean by "series," in electrical wiring, it has a different meaning.

 

[ControlD]

I just responded to this, but if your circuits are wired in series, then if you're using 2 appliances, they each get 60 volts. 😛 E.g., lights would only get 1/4 of the power & would be much dimmer than if they were wired in parallel.

Parallel circuits - voltage is the same across the circuit everywhere. You mean, daisy-chained. Though it's easy to understand what you and the OP mean by "series," in electrical wiring, it has a different meaning.

Good point! I was thinking more in terms of wiring practices but you are correct.

I am assuming that most outlets tend to be daisy chained although I have seen them wired such that removal of an outlet will not disrupt service to downstream outlets. This seems to be the exception however.

 

[echo4747]

In most cases it is OK to add something like an additional outlet by "tapping off an nearby existing outlet" just remember to use wire that is equal in capacity ( same gauge). Furnaces and sump pumps are exceptions to this. You want those to remain on dedicated circuits

 

[Aikouka]

And here I thought my wiring was awkward. 😛 The thing that bugs me is that my downstairs bedroom, which I'm using as a computer room, is tied into the same circuit as the foyer and porch lighting. I had mapped out most of my circuits prior to messing with things, but I must have overlooked that one. I was putting in some new light switches, and I found out that the room was off when I heard the printer turn on after turning the breaker back on. I do have one same-wall wiring thing, which I'm not a huge fan of, because I prefer keeping rooms the same. It's a shared wall that is in the family room and living room, which may be the best thing given some higher-draw items are in there.

Although, there is one aspect of wiring that I'm wondering about. In my attic, all of the wiring is laying on top of the joists. Is this correct? Aren't wires supposed to be run through the joists to avoid pinched wires and such? I'm going to be wiring some CAT6 and RG6 up there really soon, and I want to at least do my runs properly.

 

[ControlD]

Although, there is one aspect of wiring that I'm wondering about. In my attic, all of the wiring is laying on top of the joists. Is this correct? Aren't wires supposed to be run through the joists to avoid pinched wires and such? I'm going to be wiring some CAT6 and RG6 up there really soon, and I want to at least do my runs properly.

It doesn't need to be run through the joists to meet NEC. Depending on whether or not the wiring is considered to be in an accessible space they might need some guarding however (this is assuming the wiring is running perpendicular to the joists). If the wire is running parallel to the joists you don't need guarding but they need to be supported at a distance where screws or nails won't penetrate them from below.

-- Source: NEC ---

320.23 In Accessible Attics. Type AC cables in accessible attics or roof spaces shall be installed as specified in 320.23(A) and (B).
(A) Where Run Across the Top of Floor Joists. Where run across the top of floor joists, or within 2.1 m (7 ft) of floor or floor joists across the face of rafters or studding, in attics and roof spaces that are accessible, the cable shall be protected by substantial guard strips that are at least as high as the cable. Where this space is not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders, protection shall only be required within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the nearest edge of the scuttle hole or attic entrance.
(B) Cable Installed Parallel to Framing Members. Where the cable is installed parallel to the sides of rafters, studs, or floor joists, neither guard strips nor running boards shall be required, and the installation shall also comply with 300.4(D).

 

[herm0016]

yep. i had the outdoor lights, master bath and microwave on the same circuit in our previous house....

this one has the master bath, guest bath and half the garage on the same circuit.

 

[Exterous]

1.) I'm sure your outlets are not wired in series but in parallel.

Yeah that.

2.) The reason all outlets in a room should not be wired on the same circuit(breaker) is that should that breaker trip, you dont lose the whole room

Why only do this for one room though? I've checked a few other rooms and its the only one like this. Its not like its a dark room or anything either. Also doesn't seem standard for the area as non of my apts have done this and neither did my last house

3.) If anyone is thinking of doing any electrical work themselves .. please get a non contact circuit voltage checker at the very least. they are very inexpensive (less than $20) and available at home depot/lowes/ as well as an electrical supply store

I especially agree with #3. Seems silly to check the adjacent outlets and not the outlet you're working on. And always test that voltage checker on a known live circuit, before you discover it's the batteries that are dead, and not the circuit.

I have one and did check on a live circuit. I was doing work on several outlets and the lighting and everything I had worked on so far had read as 'off' so I stopped checking, thinking the first 4 electrical items worked on in the same room were off so that meant everything was. I'm more careful in the kitchen or bath but didn't consider there might be something special about the living room

The thread you initially posted of leaving the old house and moving into the new comes to mind. The pictures of the new house look great. You knew you had your work cut out, and now it's just uncovering those hidden treasures buried in the walls. Ever since that new house thread.... all I see are threads from you on problems with said house 😀

I think there have only been 2 threads and I wouldn't consider these big problems as nothing has been big or overly expensive. There's always something as a homeowner, esp if you do the projects yourself but thats what adds value\makes the house the way you want it. Its not always fun but there is a nice sense of accomplishment

 

[Exterous]

Should I send my fil up to help? You remember, the one that has 7 breaker panels in his house.😀

While I appreciate the offer I'll pass thanks 🙂

I agree with you, OP, on wiring, but I don't think it's widely done. If two rooms share a common wall between them, then it seems fairly common that both sides of that wall are on the same circuit.

Sure I get that and have run into that in both my houses. This one has rooms that share circuits with rooms several walls apart while having different circuits between them. The kitchen sharing the same lighting as the second bath means the wiring has to go up a floor and across two rooms (on a different circuit) before it gets to the bathroom. The Master closet has to go up a floor from the family room and across the master bedroom before it ties into the closet. Why they didn't use the master bedroom, which shares a wall with the closet, is a mystery to me

Its a 3 year old house FWIW

 

[MrPickins]

3.) If anyone is thinking of doing any electrical work themselves .. please get a non contact circuit voltage checker at the very least. they are very inexpensive (less than $20) and available at home depot/lowes/ as well as an electrical supply store

I especially agree with #3. Seems silly to check the adjacent outlets and not the outlet you're working on. And always test that voltage checker on a known live circuit, before you discover it's the batteries that are dead, and not the circuit.

So much this.

ALWAYS check the outlet/wire you're actually working on, and always check that your tester is working by testing a known live circuit.

Better safe than sorry when dealing with electricity.

 

[boomerang]

Its a 3 year old house FWIW

Your house was built using the cheapest labor available. That's the bottom line. It's not just a Michigan thing either, by any means.

A friend of my wife's, her gentlemen friend is having a condo redone on Marco Island. The condo ran him just under a half mil and it's 900 sq. ft. He had it ripped back to the studs in the kitchen and bath as well as the living area. Much of that area also had the ceilings ripped out. What I'm saying is it's a fairly extensive reno. The place is 50 years old and a lot of plumbing as well as electrical had to be brought up to code. The wife's friend says he's at nearly 200K and counting on the reno alone. This guy retired 30 years ago at age 35 and believe me, he's not worried about the cost.

So, the wife's friend is over there one day watching the electrician work and she relates to us that although her background is in banking, she can tell this guy doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. Suddenly, there is a flash and a show of sparks and the brand new AC unit dies. He packs up his shit and leaves like pronto. She calls the GC and when he comes over she tells him what happened. She also asks him if the electrician is licensed. The GC won't answer her but he makes a call and a short time later a different electrician arrives. She asks if this guy is licensed and he tells her there will be no problems with this guy. The first was an illegal laborer she feels and the second was probably not, no way to know for sure on either, but that's what her gut told her. But more than likely neither of them are actually licensed electricians.

I helped a neighbor out below us replace a duplex receptacle and installed a dimmer for him. Both the receptacle and the switch I replaced did not have the ground wires connected. Metal studs, plastic boxes and sheathed cable. Four condos in the same building built obviously at the same time. I have all my grounds hooked up, I know because I have a tester and checked and he more than likely has none. At least the two I worked on didn't and what are the odds that I found the only two?

The inspector in Michigan made sure the correct gauge wire was used where it was supposed to, made sure the staples were all in place where the wires entered the boxes and made sure the breaker panel was tidy and that the circuits were labeled. Labeled correctly didn't much matter, just labeled. The GC didn't much care how much wire was used because he saved a ton on the labor and paid the flat amount agreed upon and the inspector bought off on the job. You put all this together and that's why you've got what you've got.

 

[DrPizza]

It doesn't need to be run through the joists to meet NEC. Depending on whether or not the wiring is considered to be in an accessible space they might need some guarding however (this is assuming the wiring is running perpendicular to the joists). If the wire is running parallel to the joists you don't need guarding but they need to be supported at a distance where screws or nails won't penetrate them from below.

-- Source: NEC ---

Definition of accessible space: are there permanent stairs/ladder (including folding stairs?) If so, yes.
Within 7 feet of the attic entrance, the wires can either through the joists, at least 1 1/4" from the edge of the joist to the edge of the hole, else protected by a 1/16" metal plate or sleeve. Or, the wires (this applies to all of them in case of stairs) can be on top of the joists, and sandwiched between two furring strips of at least the same height as the wire (one on each side, not on top).

 

[Red Squirrel]

When I moved into my house nothing was labelled. So I turned on everything I could, and plugged stuff in as many outlets as I could, and turned breakers off one at a time to determine what was on it. I would do this just so you can relabel to your liking and ensure nothing got moved around and labels not updated.

One thing to consider when you wonder what is on a circuit is what is physically close. It's typical for the outlets on a shared wall of a bedroom to all be on the same circuit for example, or have an oddball outlet in the living room that's tied in with the kitchen lights or something because the wire happens to pass by there.

Code wise I think that's generally ok, but some places do require dedicated circuits like kitchen.

 

[BUTCH1]

A few years ago I worked on a light switch in a two-switch box. One light wasn't working so I tested the electricity from the other light. I got that turned off, but it took me more than one shock to realize the other switch was still live. Two different circuits in one switch box!

Mine are the same way but if you think about it it makes sense, less chance of overloading one branch if you spread it out like that.

 

[SparkyJJO]

A few years ago I worked on a light switch in a two-switch box. One light wasn't working so I tested the electricity from the other light. I got that turned off, but it took me more than one shock to realize the other switch was still live. Two different circuits in one switch box!

This isn't uncommon, particularly if the switch(s) are 3 way for lights in two different rooms.

I always check what I'm working on with this thing at the very least
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-NCVT-1SEN/100661787

If I'm wanting to be extra safe I'll grab my old test light and probe the terminals directly, but so far in the years I've had that non-contact tester it hasn't lit me up yet 😛

 

[NetWareHead]

Been there. I had a basement light near the breaker box - the circuit went up the wall, to the ceiling of the 2nd floor (attic floor), across the house, and down the wall on the opposite side of the basement to where the switch was. I presume the reason was a result of cutting and splicing the circuits in the house over a span of 50 or so years.

Funny because in the 2 story house I am rewiring, we did it this way purposefully. The house had 2 plumbing stacks, one was removed. This left a big vertical channel from basement all the way to the attic. All of the new wiring from basement circuit breaker boxes goes across the basement, up this way to the attic, cross the attic and then down the walls to the second floor rooms. We even wired the first floor door lights this way. Im going to use this space to run coax as well. Yes the most direct routes would have saved quite a few feet of wire, but that would have required fishing with a snake and drilling.