I need some clairfiaction on Obama's econ plan...

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Genx87

Come on your change of tune is like night and day. Deficit spending under Bush was terrible. Under Obama is ok because of a recession and these supposed infrastructure upgrades.

Bush deficit spent his way out of the recession of 01-02 but Ill assume that was bad in your view?

Oh really? Why don't you try arguing against what I've actually said as opposed to what you think I said? For some reason you and our good friend Doc Savage think that I need to respond as if I were some amalgamation of left wing posters on here.

My two enduring criticisms of Bush were that he financed tax cuts for the rich with deficits as part on overarching policy independent of economic conditions. I've always been a supporter of Keynesian economics, and when Bush passed the economic stimulus package in the beginning of the year I supported that in principle.

What burns me about Bush's deficit spending is that we have literally nothing to show for it. If you go a billion dollars into debt to build a bridge, at least you have a bridge out of it. A billion dollars in debt for a billionaire gives us exactly what?

For the record, I've never viewed you as an "amalgamation of left wing posters". I believe everyone is unique and try to avoid stereotyping and putting words in others mouths or imagining what that may think. I apologize if I've given you that impression.

I share your criticism of Bush for the tax cuts to the wealthy and wish Congress would take action to repeal that part and not throw out the other tax cuts for the middle and lower classes. If I remember correctly...the bulk of the tax cuts for the wealthy were in the last 2 or 3 years of the plan. But isn't it interesting that our recent deficits are not caused by decreased revenues but by increased spending. Yet you've advocated increased spending. I share your frustration with "having nothing to show for it". I just don't think heaping on more debt is the answer...I firmly believe that it'll come back to us in the end and bite us in the butt...big time.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Assuming your questions were not rhetorical:
"Did it ever occur to you that someone could view deficit spending to finance extralegal wars that harm US national security as bad, but view deficit spending to build better roads and schools while attempting to avert economic catastrophe as good?" - YES (I think most everyone would agree with this)
"That this view could exist independent of partisanship?" - FOR SOME YES, BUT FOR YOU NO (answer based on your past history of highly partisan posts?IMO, you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise)

For the record...I'm fully capable of evaluating issues on their merits?I just happen to believe that responsible government starts with responsible spending and debt management. If I had to make a choice in picking a deficit spending poison?I'd pick roads and schools?who wouldn't? But who in their right mind would swallow one poison and, then realizing that it was a big mistake, turn around and swallow another? But oooooo?.the second poison tastes soooo much better!!! And it will definitely help us avert economic catastrophe as well?yeah right. Irresponsible economic practices got us into this mess in the first place and I have a tough time believing that continued irresponsible economic practices will get us out of it.

Well...I've evaluated the merits of your reasoning and I think your argument is weak at best. But don't despair?as usual...you get an A+ for partisan rationalization. Keep up the good work!

Found another nail did we?

So your basic argument is "yes your argument is valid, but I've decided you are making it for invalid reasons." Uhmmm... okay. This is where I sadly pat you on the head. How does someone even argue against that? If you don't like Keynesian economics, that's your business. To say that this form of economics that is endorsed by a large number of economists worldwide is 'weak at best' seems awfully presumptuous of you. But hey you're a guy on the internet, what do they know after all?

You're more than welcome to disagree with deficit spending, but that wasn't what you were posting about. You decided that I was uniformly against deficit spending under Bush, but am not so under a Democratic administration, something that's obviously impossible to support. You foolishly thought you had me in some sort of contradiction, but because of your continuing hard-on to try and get one over on me on these boards, you jumped too soon once again. I'm a little flattered to be honest, but really I don't deserve all this attention.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

For the record, I've never viewed you as an "amalgamation of left wing posters". I believe everyone is unique and try to avoid stereotyping and putting words in others mouths or imagining what that may think. I apologize if I've given you that impression.

I share your criticism of Bush for the tax cuts to the wealthy and wish Congress would take action to repeal that part and not throw out the other tax cuts for the middle and lower classes. If I remember correctly...the bulk of the tax cuts for the wealthy were in the last 2 or 3 years of the plan. But isn't it interesting that our recent deficits are not caused by decreased revenues but by increased spending. Yet you've advocated increased spending. I share your frustration with "having nothing to show for it". I just don't think heaping on more debt is the answer...I firmly believe that it'll come back to us in the end and bite us in the butt...big time.

Right. I don't have a problem with deficits if they are for a purpose I consider to be a greater good. It's like personal debt. If you've got $100,000 worth of credit card debt you spent on going out to dinner, that's a bad thing. You've got nothing to show for it. If you've got that same $100,000 that you spent on a law degree, I'm totally for your debt because it's given you a tangible benefit. So yes, I am for increased spending so long as it's spending that helps our country out.

Why can't you respond to my posts with more things like this? I have no problems discussing the merits and drawbacks of deficit spending with you. If you can show me some posts of mine where you think I've contradicted myself on the issue, go ahead and show me those too and I'll gladly explain the difference. (or apologize if I can't... I'm sure I've contradicted myself on some things, haven't we all?) This whole drive by shit talking thing is pretty pointless though.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Genx87
What, No Child Left behind and the Drug Benefit plan dont work for you? Two social service plans that added billions to the budget.

No Child Left Behind is a disaster. My mother is a teacher, and the standards of teaching have gotten so shot to Hell with NCLB that basically all they're reduced to is teaching to the lowest common denominator so that as many children as possible can make their way through a standardized test. So what do they teach? Rote facts. No critical thinking or anything like that, because how do you build a standardized test around that? And what are you left with? A bunch of students who make their way through high school memorizing dates and places, forgetting them as soon as they're no longer relevant, and having no concept of real research or critical analysis. And sure, you could try to switch it up and teach critical thinking, but then the students don't know the specific date the Magna Carta was signed, and they get a lower score on the standardized test, and the school loses money, because apparently schools with lower scores need less money, not more... What the fuck?

NCLB is an absolute fucking travesty. That Bush would have to hold it up as a sign of success shows just how miserable this presidency has been.

I am not going to argue it is a good program, but a program none the less. And what you describe was happening well before NCLB came along.

NCLB guaranteed that schools with lower test scores would receive less funding. This was not the case before NCLB. WTF are you smoking?

When i replied about the issues within the system itself. Critical thinking, dumbing down of the students, memorizing dates and forgetting them. That is what I am talking about.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: mooseracing ~~snip~~
I'm confused to where the money is actually going to come from in the end....

The ""Social Security Trust Fund"" of course.

IIRC for FY2009 it will run a $250+ billion surplus.

It will be spent (on The Wars, Tax Cuts and ... infrastructure, I guess) and added to the $3+ trillion in IOUs that currently exist for SS. Kinda makes yah yearn deep in yer loins for Al Gore's lockbox, doesn't it?

Look on the bright side - the SS surplus will be over $300+ billion/yr in short time

I still believe that instead of 'wasting' the SS surplus the overwhelming majority should be loaned to state and local gov't capital projects.

At the least instead of mortgaging the future we would have the physical infrastructure investment, future cash flow from the repayment of the principle, a little bit of interest (maybe 3-4% ???) and the simple knowledge that our gov't 'partners' can work together for our common good.

Sheeshhhhh. Like that will ever happen ....

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Genx87
What, No Child Left behind and the Drug Benefit plan dont work for you? Two social service plans that added billions to the budget.

No Child Left Behind is a disaster. My mother is a teacher, and the standards of teaching have gotten so shot to Hell with NCLB that basically all they're reduced to is teaching to the lowest common denominator so that as many children as possible can make their way through a standardized test. So what do they teach? Rote facts. No critical thinking or anything like that, because how do you build a standardized test around that? And what are you left with? A bunch of students who make their way through high school memorizing dates and places, forgetting them as soon as they're no longer relevant, and having no concept of real research or critical analysis. And sure, you could try to switch it up and teach critical thinking, but then the students don't know the specific date the Magna Carta was signed, and they get a lower score on the standardized test, and the school loses money, because apparently schools with lower scores need less money, not more... What the fuck?

NCLB is an absolute fucking travesty. That Bush would have to hold it up as a sign of success shows just how miserable this presidency has been.

lol standardized tests are so kids know basic math and reading. you think urban kids who fail standardized tests will benefit from teaching "critical thinking"? I'm sorry to hear your mother is a scum American teacher.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

For the record, I've never viewed you as an "amalgamation of left wing posters". I believe everyone is unique and try to avoid stereotyping and putting words in others mouths or imagining what that may think. I apologize if I've given you that impression.

I share your criticism of Bush for the tax cuts to the wealthy and wish Congress would take action to repeal that part and not throw out the other tax cuts for the middle and lower classes. If I remember correctly...the bulk of the tax cuts for the wealthy were in the last 2 or 3 years of the plan. But isn't it interesting that our recent deficits are not caused by decreased revenues but by increased spending. Yet you've advocated increased spending. I share your frustration with "having nothing to show for it". I just don't think heaping on more debt is the answer...I firmly believe that it'll come back to us in the end and bite us in the butt...big time.

Right. I don't have a problem with deficits if they are for a purpose I consider to be a greater good. It's like personal debt. If you've got $100,000 worth of credit card debt you spent on going out to dinner, that's a bad thing. You've got nothing to show for it. If you've got that same $100,000 that you spent on a law degree, I'm totally for your debt because it's given you a tangible benefit. So yes, I am for increased spending so long as it's spending that helps our country out.

Why can't you respond to my posts with more things like this? I have no problems discussing the merits and drawbacks of deficit spending with you. If you can show me some posts of mine where you think I've contradicted myself on the issue, go ahead and show me those too and I'll gladly explain the difference. (or apologize if I can't... I'm sure I've contradicted myself on some things, haven't we all?) This whole drive by shit talking thing is pretty pointless though.

The way I see it, your analogy should go like this:
You've already got $100,000 worth of credit card debt you spent on going out to dinner...now you want to spend another $100,000 on a law degree which may or may not help pay off the total $200,000 of debt. If you get a good paying job...all is good. If you don't...it sucks to be you. Is that a fair analysis?

Well...I'm no expert and you can quote me on that...but I think it's a huge leap of faith to believe that a 'law degree' is the ticket to our salvation. But hey...who am I to have a different opinion than you and 'a large number of economists worldwide'...I just be a guy on the internet. On the personal side....you insult me and don't expect a response...get real.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: dullard
He certainly won't be able to pass all of that. But of course, he won't be able to pass all of his spending increases either. Hopefully they roughly match.

Actually, I bet most/all his spending proposals pass. The deficit really isn't an important political issue to most people.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: dullard
He certainly won't be able to pass all of that. But of course, he won't be able to pass all of his spending increases either. Hopefully they roughly match.

Actually, I bet most/all his spending proposals pass. The deficit really isn't an important political issue to most people.

Sorta like subprime loans.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

The way I see it, your analogy should go like this:
You've already got $100,000 worth of credit card debt you spent on going out to dinner...now you want to spend another $100,000 on a law degree which may or may not help pay off the total $200,000 of debt. If you get a good paying job...all is good. If you don't...it sucks to be you. Is that a fair analysis?

Well...I'm no expert and you can quote me on that...but I think it's a huge leap of faith to believe that a 'law degree' is the ticket to our salvation. But hey...who am I to have a different opinion than you and 'a large number of economists worldwide'...I just be a guy on the internet. On the personal side....you insult me and don't expect a response...get real.

Sure, that analogy is fine. Research consistently shows that the single best investment you can make to increase your future earnings is education. Yes there is risk involved, but there is risk involved in all investment.

When you make posts like the first one you made in this thread, yes I will probably insult you.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

The way I see it, your analogy should go like this:
You've already got $100,000 worth of credit card debt you spent on going out to dinner...now you want to spend another $100,000 on a law degree which may or may not help pay off the total $200,000 of debt. If you get a good paying job...all is good. If you don't...it sucks to be you. Is that a fair analysis?

Well...I'm no expert and you can quote me on that...but I think it's a huge leap of faith to believe that a 'law degree' is the ticket to our salvation. But hey...who am I to have a different opinion than you and 'a large number of economists worldwide'...I just be a guy on the internet. On the personal side....you insult me and don't expect a response...get real.

Sure, that analogy is fine. Research consistently shows that the single best investment you can make to increase your future earnings is education. Yes there is risk involved, but there is risk involved in all investment.

When you make posts like the first one you made in this thread, yes I will probably insult you.

I didn't intend to insult you with that post...I intended to express my opinion. You sir are the one who chose to insult and condescend rather than discussing the issue.

 

[Fern]

I'm believe we're going to have increased deficits either way.

If the economy gets worse w/o the increased spending mentioned Treasury reciepts will decrease anyway (far less tax revenue received) and I don't see Congress cutting spending. Plus, economic hard times means more spending for our social programs like Medicaid, unemployment and welfare etc.

Generally I support deficient spending in a bad economy, I just wish that in good times they would pay down those deficits.

Sounds like the spending proposals are things that must done anyway, either now or a little later. We can't let our roads and bridges decay; they must be maintained.

So while I've doubts about the effectiveness of these spending programs actually helping our economy, they look to be necessary expenditures anyway. To the extent they actually are I've no complaints.

Fern

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: JS80

lol standardized tests are so kids know basic math and reading. you think urban kids who fail standardized tests will benefit from teaching "critical thinking"? I'm sorry to hear your mother is a scum American teacher.

:Q OH NO HE DI-UHN!

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
No Child Left Behind is a disaster. My mother is a teacher, and the standards of teaching have gotten so shot to Hell with NCLB that basically all they're reduced to is teaching to the lowest common denominator so that as many children as possible can make their way through a standardized test.

This is precisely in line with what I've heard from teachers I know, and from teachers I've heard on the radio. I've in fact never heard a teacher claiming that it is a good program - maybe there's a link that one of the apologists can provide for me?

Of course according to JS80 all of the teachers are scumbags, so we can't believe them. So... who do we ask then? We need to find somebody with an unbiased viewpoint... I know - how about some preachers, or maybe career politicians?

BTW it should be common sense to anybody with critical thinking skills that rote facts don't do shit for the majority of citizens. Also its fascinating that most conservatives embrace this fact-based approach, except when it comes to science class, when only "alternative approaches" and "critical thinking" should be pushed. Sounds like a bunch of hippie commie shit to me.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

The way I see it, your analogy should go like this:
You've already got $100,000 worth of credit card debt you spent on going out to dinner...now you want to spend another $100,000 on a law degree which may or may not help pay off the total $200,000 of debt. If you get a good paying job...all is good. If you don't...it sucks to be you. Is that a fair analysis?

Well...I'm no expert and you can quote me on that...but I think it's a huge leap of faith to believe that a 'law degree' is the ticket to our salvation. But hey...who am I to have a different opinion than you and 'a large number of economists worldwide'...I just be a guy on the internet. On the personal side....you insult me and don't expect a response...get real.

Sure, that analogy is fine. Research consistently shows that the single best investment you can make to increase your future earnings is education. Yes there is risk involved, but there is risk involved in all investment.

When you make posts like the first one you made in this thread, yes I will probably insult you.

I didn't intend to insult you with that post...I intended to express my opinion. You sir are the one who chose to insult and condescend rather than discussing the issue.

Haha, "I didn't say that your ass was fat, I just noted your jeans size".

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Genx87
What, No Child Left behind and the Drug Benefit plan dont work for you? Two social service plans that added billions to the budget.

No Child Left Behind is a disaster. My mother is a teacher, and the standards of teaching have gotten so shot to Hell with NCLB that basically all they're reduced to is teaching to the lowest common denominator so that as many children as possible can make their way through a standardized test. So what do they teach? Rote facts. No critical thinking or anything like that, because how do you build a standardized test around that? And what are you left with? A bunch of students who make their way through high school memorizing dates and places, forgetting them as soon as they're no longer relevant, and having no concept of real research or critical analysis. And sure, you could try to switch it up and teach critical thinking, but then the students don't know the specific date the Magna Carta was signed, and they get a lower score on the standardized test, and the school loses money, because apparently schools with lower scores need less money, not more... What the fuck?

NCLB is an absolute fucking travesty. That Bush would have to hold it up as a sign of success shows just how miserable this presidency has been.

I am not going to argue it is a good program, but a program none the less. And what you describe was happening well before NCLB came along.

NCLB guaranteed that schools with lower test scores would receive less funding. This was not the case before NCLB. WTF are you smoking?

Instead we poured 5 figures per kid into inner city school districts only to obtain 50+% dropout rates.....yeah!

Just take a look at DC schools, funded by the 50 states.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Genx87

Come on your change of tune is like night and day. Deficit spending under Bush was terrible. Under Obama is ok because of a recession and these supposed infrastructure upgrades.

Bush deficit spent his way out of the recession of 01-02 but Ill assume that was bad in your view?

What exactly did he spend the deficit money on?

Ohh yeah, 2 wars where we support foreign countries, blow shit up, and shove equipment and men into a meat grinder.

Then, we give tax breaks to the rich.

Wow, great use of money. Way better than schools, roads, and bridges built in the US (not Iraq and afghanistan).

Funny, those tax breaks for the rich and the war in Iraq didn't exist in the 2001-2002 recession.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: JS80
lol standardized tests are so kids know basic math and reading. you think urban kids who fail standardized tests will benefit from teaching "critical thinking"? I'm sorry to hear your mother is a scum American teacher.

First off, there's a line you don't cross with someone you don't know. Guess what Cochise? You don't know me. What the fuck makes you think you can call my mother a scum American teacher you worthless jackass? You know fuck all about her except that she's a teacher and she doesn't agree with a Bush program that's a proven failure, and that's enough to justify slandering her on an internet forum? Fuck you so hard.

Now that I've gotten that out of my system, standardized tests don't teach anything. They test knowledge. That's why they're called tests. You don't take the SAT to learn new skills. Teachers teach, and because of the limitations of standardized testing, they are stuck teaching a curriculum that emphasizes rote memorization of names and dates which, let's face it, really aren't that relevant in 99% of the post-education world. I know Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin, but I'll be damned if I can remember the last time that little tidbit helped me with anything.

Now if you spent some time teaching inner city youth about the problems of socioeconomic stratification in our society, the benefits education offers young minds, the problems with glamorization of violence through hip hop and urban culture, particularly as it affects the youth, sex education to prevent the spread of STDs and teenage pregnancies, the short and long term effects of drug and alcohol abuse, and other problems that plague inner city youths in this country, maybe you'd start seeing less violence in these areas, particularly amongst young people. Let's face it, knowing Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin is going to stop a young man from shooting another young man (the violence being almost exclusively male to male); having some critical thinking about the situation both men are in and the need to build each other up rather than tear each other down? That might. But you can't test for that. So they don't teach it. And those kids grow up, drop out of school and shoot each other.

NCLB is an abject failure, as are you for placing so little faith in the teachers of this country, people who give their all for a pittance to ensure the brightest possible future for the children of this country. It's a shame you didn't have a good one in your life.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
I think adding to our debt is BAD...period. But thanks for enlightening me with your typical partisan spin.

Can you point out the "partisan" and "spin" that was in his reply? The only partisan comment was made by you.

 

[biostud]

military cuts :evil:

according to the trusted wiki, the expenditures for 2009 will be around
711 billions USD

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: biostud
military cuts :evil:

according to the trusted wiki, the expenditures for 2009 will be around
711 billions USD

The 'good' news is (if you want to look at it that way):

Bush Projected Defense Outlays

FY09: $651 bil
FY10: $567 bil
FY11: $537 bil
FY12: $541 bil
FY13: $549 bil

(This does not include civil defense or vet programs)


The 'bad' news:

Bush Projected Treasury Budget

FY09: $548 bil
FY10: $589 bil
FY11: $620 bil
FY12: $643 bil
FY13: $666 bil

Considering we currently have $10.7 trillion (and rising) in Federal Debt (and the total projection for all of FY09 was $10.4 trillion) I will volunteer that these numbers might be a little low for the Treasury ...


With acknowledgment that economists were worried 10 years ago that the federal gov't would pay off all of its outstanding debt by 2010 I'd say that's one worry we don't have now.

#'s from the Historical Tables, President's Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2009 (pdf)

 

[Throckmorton]

The money DOESN'T COME FROM ANYWHERE. It's debt. That's the whole point of a stimulus. If you pay for it by cutting spending somewhere else, it's not a stimulus because you cancel out the effect.

Almost every economist will agree, now is absolutely not the time to balance the budget.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: JS80
lol standardized tests are so kids know basic math and reading. you think urban kids who fail standardized tests will benefit from teaching "critical thinking"? I'm sorry to hear your mother is a scum American teacher.

First off, there's a line you don't cross with someone you don't know. Guess what Cochise? You don't know me. What the fuck makes you think you can call my mother a scum American teacher you worthless jackass? You know fuck all about her except that she's a teacher and she doesn't agree with a Bush program that's a proven failure, and that's enough to justify slandering her on an internet forum? Fuck you so hard.

Now that I've gotten that out of my system, standardized tests don't teach anything. They test knowledge. That's why they're called tests. You don't take the SAT to learn new skills. Teachers teach, and because of the limitations of standardized testing, they are stuck teaching a curriculum that emphasizes rote memorization of names and dates which, let's face it, really aren't that relevant in 99% of the post-education world. I know Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin, but I'll be damned if I can remember the last time that little tidbit helped me with anything.

Now if you spent some time teaching inner city youth about the problems of socioeconomic stratification in our society, the benefits education offers young minds, the problems with glamorization of violence through hip hop and urban culture, particularly as it affects the youth, sex education to prevent the spread of STDs and teenage pregnancies, the short and long term effects of drug and alcohol abuse, and other problems that plague inner city youths in this country, maybe you'd start seeing less violence in these areas, particularly amongst young people. Let's face it, knowing Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin is going to stop a young man from shooting another young man (the violence being almost exclusively male to male); having some critical thinking about the situation both men are in and the need to build each other up rather than tear each other down? That might. But you can't test for that. So they don't teach it. And those kids grow up, drop out of school and shoot each other.

NCLB is an abject failure, as are you for placing so little faith in the teachers of this country, people who give their all for a pittance to ensure the brightest possible future for the children of this country. It's a shame you didn't have a good one in your life.

Yeah... good idea... if we don't test them...we can safely ignore the failure...


:roll:

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: JS80
lol standardized tests are so kids know basic math and reading. you think urban kids who fail standardized tests will benefit from teaching "critical thinking"? I'm sorry to hear your mother is a scum American teacher.

First off, there's a line you don't cross with someone you don't know. Guess what Cochise? You don't know me. What the fuck makes you think you can call my mother a scum American teacher you worthless jackass? You know fuck all about her except that she's a teacher and she doesn't agree with a Bush program that's a proven failure, and that's enough to justify slandering her on an internet forum? Fuck you so hard.

Now that I've gotten that out of my system, standardized tests don't teach anything. They test knowledge. That's why they're called tests. You don't take the SAT to learn new skills. Teachers teach, and because of the limitations of standardized testing, they are stuck teaching a curriculum that emphasizes rote memorization of names and dates which, let's face it, really aren't that relevant in 99% of the post-education world. I know Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin, but I'll be damned if I can remember the last time that little tidbit helped me with anything.

Now if you spent some time teaching inner city youth about the problems of socioeconomic stratification in our society, the benefits education offers young minds, the problems with glamorization of violence through hip hop and urban culture, particularly as it affects the youth, sex education to prevent the spread of STDs and teenage pregnancies, the short and long term effects of drug and alcohol abuse, and other problems that plague inner city youths in this country, maybe you'd start seeing less violence in these areas, particularly amongst young people. Let's face it, knowing Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin is going to stop a young man from shooting another young man (the violence being almost exclusively male to male); having some critical thinking about the situation both men are in and the need to build each other up rather than tear each other down? That might. But you can't test for that. So they don't teach it. And those kids grow up, drop out of school and shoot each other.

NCLB is an abject failure, as are you for placing so little faith in the teachers of this country, people who give their all for a pittance to ensure the brightest possible future for the children of this country. It's a shame you didn't have a good one in your life.

Yeah... good idea... if we don't test them...we can safely ignore the failure...


:roll:

They need to test and teach English in the inner cities.. Also math... I'm sure those can easily be quantified. Based on this, if the school fails they should be held accountable. Isn't this what the no child left behind act is suppose to do?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: biostud
military cuts :evil:

according to the trusted wiki, the expenditures for 2009 will be around
711 billions USD

Not sure how reputable/accurate this is but damn... Link

 

[theeedude]

It's debt, but at least it's debt that is going towards infrastructure that will increase economic activity down the road. Would you rather rack up that debt paying for welfare and unemployment benefits for the jobless? Compare that to the debt accumulated by the Republicans in the last 8 years mostly on tax cuts, which which were supposed to stimulate our economy, look how great that worked out.