I need a reason for abortion being legal

[SandEagle]

Sorry bro, but that's her own fault. Rape is not a choice, but birth control is. Choosing not to be on birth control implicitly means choosing pregnancy.

Lots of other things are like that. Welding without a mask even when they are readily available implies that you don't care if you go blind. Driving without a seatbelt means you don't care if you live or die. Not being on birth control tells the world you're willing to accept the consequences of being raped. It's not like rape is a rare thing. Women know how incredibly common it is. It's very likely that you know several people who have been raped. I'm not even 30 and I know at least 3 women who have admitted it. It's as common as crashing a car, and we wear seatbelts because we know how common that is.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Fair enough. Would it make pro life people happier.

The only thing that would make these kinds of bastards happy would be if we let them decide over women completely.

That is their key, they are like the Taliban lite brigade, we don't want to stone them but we want to dictate what they can and cannot do even when it comes to their natural functions as human beings... all in favor say AYE!

Catholics... AYE
Protestants... AYE
Evangelicals... AYE
ISLAMISTS... AYE
Muslims... not quite sure

And this is where the pool gets shallow, Muslims, in general, actually support womens rights more than any form of Christianists... I learned that in Kosovo, i found it amusing, of course, this only goes for Eastern European nation Muslims, the remnants of the Ottoman empire, they are far more radical in the US and the ME version is based more on Hadiths than the actual Koran.

I think i just coined a new term too, Christianists... some props for that would be in order.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I can't decide whether that is a cat carelessly trimming it's claw or... I'll sharpen these and SOON...

 

[Kadarin]

For the folks against abortion who allow for exceptions for cases of rape or incest, the debate about whether or not abortion should be legal is not and never has been about "the sanctity of life". For these people it's about enforcing sexual morality, in that being forced to raise a child or give it up for adoption is considered to be God's righteous punishment for engaging in perceived immoral sexual behavior. In other words, it's the "you do the crime, you do the time" mentality.

In the cases of rape and incest, presumably the woman did not consent to nor enjoy the experience, and therefore she does not deserve the punishment.

The human reproductive system doesn't give a fuck if the woman consented to sex, so clearly some people are placing a cultural convention over "the sanctity of life". Same with incest (in neither case is the resultant child at fault, so why does it deserve to die?)


My opinion is that you should not be able to enforce your sexual morality on me, and nor I mine on you. Personally, I value the lives of adults over the potential lives of fetuses and embryos, and am perfectly ok with aborting them even if it's simply a matter of convenience for the woman who chooses not to be a mother.

 

[cybrsage]

Very narrow minded. Solution for rape is adoption? Really? You clearly don't have a daughter. I know no father who I have spoken to on this very issue that would put their child through carrying to term, birthing then giving up a baby in that situation, including me. The trump of rape is more than enough don't you think?

You support the killing of a human due to the crimes committed by the father of that human? How very ancient Greek of you.

EDIT: Aborting the unborn child is simply adding the sin of killing an innocent to the sin of rape...it solves nothing, but it increases the amount of evil done

 

[cybrsage]

Infanticide is defined as the "killing of a child". There are no scientific facts that concretely define the moment a sperm penetrates an egg as a child. Nor are there any scientific facts that concretely define the moment a sperm penetrates an egg as "life", it's merely another stage in the creation of life, just as killing your sperm via masturbation is killing a lower form of "life". Nothing particularly difficult to understand there.

Much of what you said is correct, but you are incorrect over killing sperm is the same as killing a lower form of life. While there is no complete definition of life yet, one universally accepted requirement is that life is self replicating. Sperm does not meet that requirement while a human zygote (and any zygote for that matter) does.

A child is a human who has been born, which is why it does not apply to pre-birth humans...except possibly in some twisted court cases.

 

[dmcowen674]

I need a reason for abortion being legal

Welfare population control

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Better question is what reason FOR abortion cannot also be used for infanticide.

The only way you can't justify infanticide with abortion arguments is if you take the stance that the fetus can only be considered alive if it is viable outside of the mothers womb, but this in itself is also a curious argument because an infant is completely dependent on the mother, just as much as a fetus is.

Full disclosure: If I was a legislator I don't think I'd be willing to impose my views on society and ban abortion, I simply am just having trouble finding a logically coherent and consistent argument that satisfies both the right to life of the mother, fetus, infant, and the mother's liberty to choose to terminate her pregnancy. The consistency fails in my opinion in that an argument for abortion opens the door to infanticide, something I think most people would agree is something we should protect against.

Think about it this way. What is a person? Is a person merely flesh and DNA, or is there something more? Does a newborn possess that which makes a human body a person? Does a newborn have a human-level conscious capable of abstract thought and of containing a personality, or is it at the same level (or even below that) of an animal? Is there an actual person in the newborn?

I don't see how killing an embryo--a mere cell mass without even a brain, could be logically equated with infanticide.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You support the killing of a human due to the crimes committed by the father of that human? How very ancient Greek of you.

EDIT: Aborting the unborn child is simply adding the sin of killing an innocent to the sin of rape...it solves nothing, but it increases the amount of evil done

Killing of a human WHAT, the taking of a human beings life isn't happening and you either cannot read, cannot argue or am trying to circumvent reality with religion.

In any case, you don't get a say if it's not your body.

If you think you do, piss off and stay off forever.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I'm very pro-abortion, but someone pointed out that almost every problem related to unwanted babies can be solved by putting babies up for adoption.
I can't afford to raise a baby --> adoption
I don't want my baby to be born in the year of the dragon - -> adoption
I was raped --> adoption
I don't want a baby --> adoption
Centipedes in my vagina --> adoption


The only stuff left is convenience. Being pregnant sucks. Is that what this is about? It interferes with school, it interferes with work, it makes it harder to find random men to sleep with, it means buying a whole new set of clothes, etc. Is that what it comes down to?

Aside from the Fact that once the seed has sprouted its alive. NO one has the right to decide that Life from being born . NO ONE!

I think your hit on the adoption thing really well. The problem is it cost to much for something that should be free. You don't want . I do . Give me your child . And the WOMAN has the right to give that child away . BUT gooberment gets involved because lawyers run the whole system and make laws that are obsene. The only good lawyer is a dead lawyer. Christ said make not laws or you bind yourself to them . Again the devil is in the details. Liberty is something modern Americans seem to be clueless about. Look at Foster parents . The ones I know are horriable people . Parents for cash. Asswipes.

 

[cybrsage]

Killing of a human WHAT, the taking of a human beings life isn't happening and you either cannot read, cannot argue or am trying to circumvent reality with religion.

A human, I thought I made that clear. I never claimed "human being", so you adding that is a rather silly thing to do. I realize it is easier to argue against a point you created yourself, but do try to not do it. You are usually better than that.

I hope you are not trying to say a human pops out of its mother having been some other species while inside the mother...that would be a silly thing to claim as well. I think you are smarter than to claim that, so I will assume you are not. If this assumption holds true (that you think human babies are human prior to being pushed out the vagina at birth), then we both agree that abortions kill a human.

Of course, killing also assumes you think the self replicating human inside the womb is alive. Self replication is a good indicator of life - there obviously is more needed to be called life than that, but it is a vital component. I am going to assume you believe the human fetus is alive and not an non-living thing...which means you agree that abortions end the life of a human...killing that human.

Do you agree that an abortion ends the life of a human, or not. If not, why?

In any case, you don't get a say if it's not your body.

Are you saying that it is fine to kill a human for the crime of rape committed by that human's father?

If you think you do, piss off and stay off forever.

You kiss your mother with that mouth?

 

[DrPizza]

Sorry bro, but that's her own fault. Rape is not a choice, but birth control is. Choosing not to be on birth control implicitly means choosing pregnancy.

Lots of other things are like that. Welding without a mask even when they are readily available implies that you don't care if you go blind. Driving without a seatbelt means you don't care if you live or die. Not being on birth control tells the world you're willing to accept the consequences of being raped. It's not like rape is a rare thing. Women know how incredibly common it is. It's very likely that you know several people who have been raped. I'm not even 30 and I know at least 3 women who have admitted it. It's as common as crashing a car, and we wear seatbelts because we know how common that is.

WTF?!

You're right. Not being on birth control is like not wearing a welding mask - AND HAVING NO INTENTION OF WELDING. Not being on birth control is like not wearing a seatbelt WHILE NOT RIDING IN A CAR.

 

[cybrsage]

Aside from the Fact that once the seed has sprouted its alive. NO one has the right to decide that Life from being born . NO ONE!

I think your hit on the adoption thing really well. The problem is it cost to much for something that should be free. You don't want . I do . Give me your child . And the WOMAN has the right to give that child away . BUT gooberment gets involved because lawyers run the whole system and make laws that are obsene. The only good lawyer is a dead lawyer. Christ said make not laws or you bind yourself to them . Again the devil is in the details. Liberty is something modern Americans seem to be clueless about. Look at Foster parents . The ones I know are horriable people . Parents for cash. Asswipes.

I think the adopting person/couple should pay for the medical expenses of the woman. It is only right and fair.

 

[cybrsage]

Think about it this way. What is a person? Is a person merely flesh and DNA, or is there something more? Does a newborn possess that which makes a human body a person? Does a newborn have a human-level conscious capable of abstract thought and of containing a personality, or is it at the same level (or even below that) of an animal? Is there an actual person in the newborn?

I don't see how killing an embryo--a mere cell mass without even a brain, could be logically equated with infanticide.

Humans go through many levels of intellect throughout their lifecycle. All living humans start as human zygotes, pass through the human fetus stage, through the human infant stage, and continue to progress from there. Death ends the progression through the stages.

At each stage, intellect changes. The ability to conceptualize, understand, etc., goes up to a point, then starts to decline again at the end stages.

All that said, abortion is not infantcide, as infantcide requires an infant, which is a human stage after birth.

 

[DCal430]

A woman can have an abortion in this country even after the baby is viable. There are very few restrictions on abortion in the 3rd trimester, and they can be easily overcome. There are healthy fetuses that are viable, that are aborted because the law allows it.

 

[cybrsage]

Interestingly enough, the right to privacy is what the SCOTUS used to say a woman could kill her unborn child. Since rights are confirred upon birth, the child's right to not have her life taken without due process trumps the woman's right to privacy to kill the child, so the child is not allowed to be killed after birth.

 

[monovillage]

This is the U.S. where everything should be legal unless you can come up with a clear and compelling reason for it to be illegal.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

A human, I thought I made that clear. I never claimed "human being", so you adding that is a rather silly thing to do. I realize it is easier to argue against a point you created yourself, but do try to not do it. You are usually better than that.

I hope you are not trying to say a human pops out of its mother having been some other species while inside the mother...that would be a silly thing to claim as well. I think you are smarter than to claim that, so I will assume you are not. If this assumption holds true (that you think human babies are human prior to being pushed out the vagina at birth), then we both agree that abortions kill a human.

Of course, killing also assumes you think the self replicating human inside the womb is alive. Self replication is a good indicator of life - there obviously is more needed to be called life than that, but it is a vital component. I am going to assume you believe the human fetus is alive and not an non-living thing...which means you agree that abortions end the life of a human...killing that human.

Do you agree that an abortion ends the life of a human, or not. If not, why?



Are you saying that it is fine to kill a human for the crime of rape committed by that human's father?



You kiss your mother with that mouth?

Read previous post for how it is impossible to kill a human being that isn't alive.

My mother is either dead or alive, i don't know and i don't care, either way, i would rather kiss a brick of lye than her lips.

My dear mother asked me to to pack my clothes after i came home for school, i was excited thinking that we were going on vacation, we were not, she just threw me out of the house onto the street to fend for myself at age 13.

You don't know me and you don't know anything about biology, all you have is your opinion and that is fine FOR YOU, so don't have an abortion, but if you want to stop others you'll have to argue against actual scientific data and that is something you are not equipped for no matter how much you try to ignore and sidetrack the actual issue of when life begins.

See, you have one choice here, if you want to hinder abortions pre week 25 you'll have to stop all clinical death evaluations immediatly and then change the practice, that is the only way because NO ONE, not EVEN YOU can seriously claim that a fetus with as much brain activity as a brain dead human being and no more is actually alive.

Not that you won't try and sidestep yet again... that is all you do, you're a lot like Ron and Newt in that area and that is why i like Mittens better than either but still want Wes Clark to run again...

 

[MotF Bane]

Sorry bro, but that's her own fault. Rape is not a choice, but birth control is. Choosing not to be on birth control implicitly means choosing pregnancy.

Lots of other things are like that. Welding without a mask even when they are readily available implies that you don't care if you go blind. Driving without a seatbelt means you don't care if you live or die. Not being on birth control tells the world you're willing to accept the consequences of being raped. It's not like rape is a rare thing. Women know how incredibly common it is. It's very likely that you know several people who have been raped. I'm not even 30 and I know at least 3 women who have admitted it. It's as common as crashing a car, and we wear seatbelts because we know how common that is.

Hooooly fuck. You're completely deranged. You take the concept of women bringing rape upon themselves by dressing "provocatively" (which is, by itself, pretty retarded), and then you apparently decide it's not retarded enough. No, you feel the compulsion to prove you can say something even stupider.

So a woman who dressed in a short skirt and heels, but doesn't use birth control, is not only responsible for leading on her rapist, but she's also chosen to have that rapist's child. If she doesn't actually want the child, no problem, she can carry the rapist's child to term, give birth to it, and then put it up for adoption. But it was all her fault to get raped, and all her choice to have the child.

Read this over, slowly. Take your time with it. Maybe sign off for a day, a week, or a few years, and see if it sinks in just how completely mind-blowingly dumb that was.

 

[DCal430]

Read previous post for how it is impossible to kill a human being that isn't alive.

My mother is either dead or alive, i don't know and i don't care, either way, i would rather kiss a brick of lye than her lips.

My dear mother asked me to to pack my clothes after i came home for school, i was excited thinking that we were going on vacation, we were not, she just threw me out of the house onto the street to fend for myself at age 13.

You don't know me and you don't know anything about biology, all you have is your opinion and that is fine FOR YOU, so don't have an abortion, but if you want to stop others you'll have to argue against actual scientific data and that is something you are not equipped for no matter how much you try to ignore and sidetrack the actual issue of when life begins.

See, you have one choice here, if you want to hinder abortions pre week 25 you'll have to stop all clinical death evaluations immediatly and then change the practice, that is the only way because NO ONE, not EVEN YOU can seriously claim that a fetus with as much brain activity as a brain dead human being and no more is actually alive.

Not that you won't try and sidestep yet again... that is all you do, you're a lot like Ron and Newt in that area and that is why i like Mittens better than either but still want Wes Clark to run again...

Abortions happen after 25 weeks in the U.S.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Interestingly enough, the right to privacy is what the SCOTUS used to say a woman could kill her unborn child. Since rights are confirred upon birth, the child's right to not have her life taken without due process trumps the woman's right to privacy to kill the child, so the child is not allowed to be killed after birth.

And with this, all respect i ever had for you is gone.

I'd pity you for your extreme ignorance but you don't even deserve my pity.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Think about it this way. What is a person? Is a person merely flesh and DNA, or is there something more? Does a newborn possess that which makes a human body a person? Does a newborn have a human-level conscious capable of abstract thought and of containing a personality, or is it at the same level (or even below that) of an animal? Is there an actual person in the newborn?

I don't see how killing an embryo--a mere cell mass without even a brain, could be logically equated with infanticide.

Thats because your tring to be the Judge . No man is worthy of judgeship . Now the biggest badass in the tribe is usually the leader and that fine I rather have that type than these wimps thinking they are special because they have basicly destroyed our true nature. Most people I know are clueless about Christ message. THere is no sin against God . God made no laws for us Man did . Which was fine so long as good common sense is used . Like Murder theft ect ect . Man didn't have marriage for many many 1000s of years befor oath was given and the sin of adultry was created by man for performing a NATURAL ACT. Adultry isn't the sin . Marriage is . The exchange of fidelity oaths were exchanged.

Once the egg is fertile its life. Were no differant in this reguard than a sappling its alive but is barren of fruit. I really don't have authority to destroy that sappling . NO MAN does. God gave us stewardship over the earth not ownership . Native American indians is as close to doing GODs will as anyman race has ever achieved and were given stewardship of the true promised land. The jews are liars and so is the Bible a lie. Changed to fit the man in power whimms. You think The romans were hard on early chirstians wait till you see what God has instore for todays LOL Christians. It is written in the end times even the elect are endanger of lossing their immortal spirit for that spirit is of God There are only 144,000 witnessess. These are indanger. So good luck getting to heaven or returning to the root matter you are composed of . Heaven would be returning to that same root . Hell is not returning to the root matter that created you. After all we are nothing more than the elements of a dead star. Exactly in perportion to that dead stars elements. WE all come from the exact same place Stars life ext ext . All from GOD, Call it the big bang if its suites your agenda. I think star wars has it closer to truth than the BIBLE.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Abortions happen after 25 weeks in the U.S.

OMG...

I don't care.

I'm stating my opinion, the UK laws are based on this and it should be law in all lands.

 

[Carmen813]

I'm very pro-abortion, but someone pointed out that almost every problem related to unwanted babies can be solved by putting babies up for adoption.
I can't afford to raise a baby --> adoption
I don't want my baby to be born in the year of the dragon - -> adoption
I was raped --> adoption
I don't want a baby --> adoption
Centipedes in my vagina --> adoption


The only stuff left is convenience. Being pregnant sucks. Is that what this is about? It interferes with school, it interferes with work, it makes it harder to find random men to sleep with, it means buying a whole new set of clothes, etc. Is that what it comes down to?

It is very difficult to adopt a child in the U.S. so there is a pretty major flaw with adoption as a solution. It creates other issues as well, having had several friends who were adopted. Pregnancy is also a life-threatening condition for the mother, though we pretend it isn't. Woman have a right to their bodies and to decide if they want to continue a pregnancy. Aside from the physical risk, there are psychological ones as well.

I would rather we focus less on issues like abortion that made people crazy, and instead focus on making our country such that raising a child isn't so difficult. Things like our idiotic family leave laws, poor healthcare, low incomes, and sexism. Those are the issues that require real work and thus it is unsurprising that our leaders ignore them.

 

[DCal430]

OMG...

I don't care.

I'm stating my opinion, the UK laws are based on this and it should be law in all lands.

I was just explaining that he was coming from the perspective of U.S laws which allows abortion even at 40 weeks, on healthy viable fetus.

No it shouldn't be the law in all lands, each nation has its own laws.