I need a reason for abortion being legal

[cybrsage]

I know you know it's not the same thing, why you keep arguing that it is is beyond me.

These analogies rarely make sense, if you want a valid analogy, how about someone crawls up your arse and refuses to leave and you can't remove him without killing him, should you be able to?

You are confusing the issue. The argument was "cannot tell you what to do with your body". This is as bad an argument to use here as it is to use in the drug threads. Obviously, you can be told what to do with your body, and the requirement to use clothing proves it.

People who use that argument are simply being lazy and not actually spending the time to think the argument through.

Besides, and I think you most likely already know this (I do not think the schools over there are completely terrible), being pregnant is a normal human event. In fact, it is a requirement for the continuation of the species. Someone being up your ass fits neither description.

 

[cybrsage]

Really? And here I thought it was simply a by-product of the bible treating women like second class citizens, telling their children to procreate like rabbits, and an over-inflated sense of hyper-morality that goes along with the belief that everyone who isn't like you is going to be eternally damned.

See, I never understood how mainstream Christianity got that women are second class citizens. The Tanakh implies that women are actually HOLIER than men. Women are required to follow less Levitical Laws. The purpose of these laws is to show what sin is and how to avoid it in order to become more holy and therefor more acceptable to God. The implication is that since women need less rules to follow to be holy, that means they already are more acceptable to God and therefor more holy.

Also, the Israelites required that all their children - both boys and girls - be fully literate. How else can you follow the rules of God if you cannot read and memorize them?

Things started changing as Rabbinics started putting more and more fences around The Law...which was and still is a bad thing.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Things started changing as Rabbinics started putting more and more fences around The Law...which was and still is a bad thing.

And yet stained glass windows existed (during the middle ages and forward) to tell major stories, or even the stations of the cross, to the illiterate.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Really? And here I thought it was simply a by-product of the bible treating women like second class citizens, telling their children to procreate like rabbits, and an over-inflated sense of hyper-morality that goes along with the belief that everyone who isn't like you is going to be eternally damned.

You are confusing things.

That is Armchair Christianity.

Talking about the immorality of Abortion when you have very little chance of getting any and have no desire to help support the kid once it is born (thinking Adoption is this magical thing that takes care of all unwanted children).'

Really similar though.

 

[Ninjahedge]

And with the right to life comes the definition of what life is, see i'm all for both abortions AND right to life, it's just that in a state where if they were born they would be considered dead, their organs would be harvested or they would be buried or cremated, at that stage for some reason a fetus is alive and can be killed...

How that makes sense i do not know, i'm also against post 25 week abortions given there are not complications, if you haven't had one by then you are SOL in my book.

JOS... Although I do favor pro-choice, I can see where the argument can be made.

It is simple. A brain dead individual will not develop into a functioning human being in 3 months. They are gone, kaput.

The harder thing would probably be in patients in a coma... with the hope that they will come back in 1, 5, 10 years. the comparison is still not perfect.

So although it is 100% correct to say that it is not killing a fully functioning being, that being has the potential to be so whereas the brain dead does not.

Abortion should be discouraged, but not outlawed. It is a serious decision and should not be seen as a last minute birth control or "Get out of Parenthood Free" card. So long as its severity and weight is appreciated, people will make responsible decisions (hopefully) regarding it.

MOST people do this now. The majority that don't (take this seriously) are probably better off without kids, to tell you the truth. As an extreme example (and dated), would you LIKE to have a crack whore having 10 kids because she cannot have a legal abortion? Would you like to raise and educate them, or deal with the crimes they commit if they are left to their own upbringing?

Absolute "morality" only works in a nice clean diorama. Once you get into the real world, it is a lot harder to point a finger, with any credibility, and say "God said so".

 

[slayernine]

I'm very pro-abortion, but someone pointed out that almost every problem related to unwanted babies can be solved by putting babies up for adoption.
I can't afford to raise a baby --> adoption
I don't want my baby to be born in the year of the dragon - -> adoption
I was raped --> adoption
I don't want a baby --> adoption
Centipedes in my vagina --> adoption

The only stuff left is convenience. Being pregnant sucks. Is that what this is about? It interferes with school, it interferes with work, it makes it harder to find random men to sleep with, it means buying a whole new set of clothes, etc. Is that what it comes down to?

Try solving these:

I don't want my vagina all stretched to hell and back --> ???
Don't want people to think I'm a slut --> ???
Don't want some kid trying to look me up later in life --> ???
Don't want to get fat --> ???
I like killing defenceless children --> ???

 

[slayernine]

There is also the issue of over population. In China this would not work. It wouldn't work well in industrialized nations. It's also rather insane. What is the rationale for forcing a woman to carry a zygote to term? Right to life? Get a life.

We just need to infect the poor with a disease that makes them all impotent. What could possibly go wrong with that?

 

[Ausm]

The battle isn't over.

What battle? It's only pipe dream that Roe vs Wade will ever be overturned.

 

[ShawnD1]

Try solving these:

I don't want my vagina all stretched to hell and back --> ???
Don't want people to think I'm a slut --> ???
Don't want some kid trying to look me up later in life --> ???
Don't want to get fat --> ???
I like killing defenceless children --> ???

If a woman can de-stretch after the 4 finger treatment, she can de-stretch for babby.
Say it was divine and that you're actually a virgin.
Just deny it's yours. You are looking for a different Sarah Conner.
???
Kill someone else's child.

pro-abortion? WTF?!?

it's pro-choice...unless you are adamant about killing every fetus.

I'm straight up pro-abortion. I don't just say it's an option. I say it should be one of the first choices, and I never back down from that position. There will always be orphans (like my dad and half brother), but we don't want too many orphans. Having an oversupply of children with no parents is bad. Very bad. They basically grow up the same way people in the ghetto grow up. Not really any positive role models.

 

[Ninjahedge]

If a woman can de-stretch after the 4 finger treatment, she can de-stretch for babby.

It don't work that way.

I'm straight up pro-abortion. I don't just say it's an option.

Um, then you started a flame war deliberately?

GJ.

I say it should be one of the first choices, and I never back down from that position. There will always be orphans (like my dad and half brother), but we don't want too many orphans. Having an oversupply of children with no parents is bad. Very bad. They basically grow up the same way people in the ghetto grow up. Not really any positive role models.

You said absolutely nothing in that last statement.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You are confusing the issue. The argument was "cannot tell you what to do with your body". This is as bad an argument to use here as it is to use in the drug threads. Obviously, you can be told what to do with your body, and the requirement to use clothing proves it.

People who use that argument are simply being lazy and not actually spending the time to think the argument through.

Besides, and I think you most likely already know this (I do not think the schools over there are completely terrible), being pregnant is a normal human event. In fact, it is a requirement for the continuation of the species. Someone being up your ass fits neither description.

When you finish third grade biology class we can have this discussion, obviously you don't know how babby is formed.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

The south managed to rationalize slavery. Germans managed to rationalize the death camps. We have not changed. We've simply offloaded the atrocity to a less vocal, less visible victim.

Why are you not voicing your opinion on the people you believe to be alive that are killed every day with organ harvest, shouldn't that be MUCH WORSE?

You're not because it doesn't offend your religious morality, the fact that a pre week 25 fetus is just as dead doesn't matter to you at all, RELIGION is all that matters to you and the thought that these women are going to get away with having sex without your say so.

I'd say you are utterly pathetic and while your standpoint might fly in SA, it sure as HELL doesn't fly in any western nation.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

JOS... Although I do favor pro-choice, I can see where the argument can be made.

It is simple. A brain dead individual will not develop into a functioning human being in 3 months. They are gone, kaput.

If that is the argument then the Catholics are correct, why prevent the making of a beutiful human baby via contraceptives?

In reality, you can't kill what isn't alive.

Don't argue against what could be, i can beat you at that game every time because it's a "what if" argument, and if fairies danced on the Islay and King George had a moment there would never have been a war for independence.

This is LAW we are talking about, we are dealing with ABSOLUTES, not what if's, if we were, why not let Iran invade the US, what if the nation would be better for it... you get my point? I had to visualise it for you because you don't seem to have a normal mind that can grasp things you are told.

So, if you can't kill the fetus, how is abortion the taking of a life?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Being made pregnant against her will is considered rape, yes lethal force is justified to prevent someone from raping you.

Nope, being raped is having sex against her will, if every unwanted pregnancy was a rape almost all men would be locked up.

 

[Ninjahedge]

If that is the argument then the Catholics are correct, why prevent the making of a beutiful human baby via contraceptives?

JS, I am not going any further with it, because Ican argue that point too!

Suffice to say, you CAN refute the comparison between a fetus and a brain dead adult.

In reality, you can't kill what isn't alive.

Trees. Again, in an argument, you can't be too broad in your appellations.

Don't argue against what could be, i can beat you at that game every time because it's a "what if" argument, and if fairies danced on the Islay and King George had a moment there would never have been a war for independence.

That is not the point JS. The point is, if you let everything alone and did nothing, in each case, one would produce a living sentient being, and in the other, it would die.

Again, I am not disagreeing with the premise, but the analogy is too easily contested and put into a rather valid "what if" loop (as compared to others I have been hearing).

This is LAW we are talking about, we are dealing with ABSOLUTES, not what if's, if we were, why not let Iran invade the US, what if the nation would be better for it... you get my point? I had to visualise it for you because you don't seem to have a normal mind that can grasp things you are told.

Se, now you are taking it outside the bounds of the original discussion. What if there was a God. What if God was a wombat? C'mahn man, you are on the edge of straw-manning.

So, if you can't kill the fetus, how is abortion the taking of a life?

Not touching that. Like I said, I am one of those weirdos that believes it is a serious choice that cannot be simplified into "God said so" vs. "Is it alive yet?" My main point was your analogy can be refuted relatively easily with completely plausable what-if's. This is not a case of "What if the baby and the brain dead guy were shot".

KISS. You try and put too many analogies through and you end up with problems.

 

[ShawnD1]

Um, then you started a flame war deliberately?

GJ.

No. I asked for a valid excuse for abortion to be legal and so far I'm just getting a bunch of bullshit answers. People keep bringing up stuff like rape or medical problems, but that doesn't answer the question at all. The abortion debate was always about women wanting abortions without a medical reason.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

JS, I am not going any further with it, because Ican argue that point too!

Suffice to say, you CAN refute the comparison between a fetus and a brain dead adult.



Trees. Again, in an argument, you can't be too broad in your appellations.



That is not the point JS. The point is, if you let everything alone and did nothing, in each case, one would produce a living sentient being, and in the other, it would die.

Again, I am not disagreeing with the premise, but the analogy is too easily contested and put into a rather valid "what if" loop (as compared to others I have been hearing).



Se, now you are taking it outside the bounds of the original discussion. What if there was a God. What if God was a wombat? C'mahn man, you are on the edge of straw-manning.



Not touching that. Like I said, I am one of those weirdos that believes it is a serious choice that cannot be simplified into "God said so" vs. "Is it alive yet?" My main point was your analogy can be refuted relatively easily with completely plausable what-if's. This is not a case of "What if the baby and the brain dead guy were shot".

KISS. You try and put too many analogies through and you end up with problems.

I don't get any of this... are trees not alive? Are you arguing that an acorn is an oak, are you arguing that trees are human beings and as such can be comparable to human life?

Or are you just trying to be clever but fail so hard that it is not even amusing?

I'm going with the latter choice and you are dismissed as you are either high as a kite, drunk as a skunk or just generally fucked in the skull.

Get that, got it, fine, now piss off.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

No. I asked for a valid excuse for abortion to be legal and so far I'm just getting a bunch of bullshit answers. People keep bringing up stuff like rape or medical problems, but that doesn't answer the question at all. The abortion debate was always about women wanting abortions without a medical reason.

And you got one, you cannot kill a human being that is not yet alive.

 

[biostud]

womans right to choose over her own body /thread.

 

[slayernine]

womans right to choose over her own body /thread.

I think we've let these emotion filled bags get the better of us, time to take away their rights and treat them like the baby making cattle they are.

edit: For those of you who thought I was serious, I am not.

Misogyny and misandry are not allowed in P&N.

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[JohnOfSheffield]

womans right to choose over her own body /thread.

Yeah, but you're a sane human being so your view doesn't count.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Yeah, but you're a sane human being so your view doesn't count.

Hvornår smager en Tuborg bedst Perikles?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I think we've let these emotion filled bags get the better of us, time to take away their rights and treat them like the baby making cattle they are.

I want you dead.


Posting physical threats likes this (publicly or by pm) is vacationable. You know this because you served a 1 month vacation for it in the past. Time for another one to refresh your memory on how not to behave here.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[shira]

No. I asked for a valid excuse for abortion to be legal and so far I'm just getting a bunch of bullshit answers. People keep bringing up stuff like rape or medical problems, but that doesn't answer the question at all. The abortion debate was always about women wanting abortions without a medical reason.

Does a woman require a "valid excuse" to get a flu shot? Does it even occur to you to think about "valid excuses" for flu shots? Well, a woman doesn't need a "valid excuse" for an abortion, either. Why are you even asking?

 

[momeNt]

Does a woman require a "valid excuse" to get a flu shot? Does it even occur to you to think about "valid excuses" for flu shots? Well, a woman doesn't need a "valid excuse" for an abortion, either. Why are you even asking?

What if fetuses could have flu shots that killed their mother!