I need a plumber's advice

[ultravox]

This is more of an annoyance than a problem but here goes ....

I have a house ...3 stories with a metal roof and a septic tank since I'm out in the country. The weeping bed is about 4ft above ground and up to specs.
When the "contractor" who built the house it was "helping" me do the plumbing he was very hesitant to put a hole in the roof for the vent pipes. He said that for his own home rather than putting a vent through the roof he made a loop of PVC pipe with a vent valve on the end and he said it works as well as the vented roof pipes. It was a sort of contraption with four 90 degree joints and straight pieces making a square and a piece going straight up with the vent-valve on the end. There must be about 12 ft of PVC in there.
Now here's the annoyance. Whenever it rains hard my toilets flush as if they're blocked, that is the water rises pretty high in the bowl before draining and sometimes they gurgle . The vent valves go crazy sometimes releasing air even when there is no flushing. I know the septic tank is not full because it's done this since day one (3 yrs ago) so I figured it must be something with atmospheric pressure or something. What I need to know is if it really is my vent sytem that's causing this or is there something wrong with the septic tank.
Thew toilets never overflow but it is rather disquieting to see the water come close to the edge of the bowl or to hear the vents gurgling for no reason in the middle of he night.

 

[bonkers325]

i dont think its atmospheric pressure, since that remains constant

but since u mention that your toilets dont flush properly when it rains hard, it would suggest some sort of water infiltration issue in your system(s). maybe your septic tank is leaky and gets filled with stormwater during rainstorms. just my thoughts, im not really an expert on this stuff

 

[DeadByDawn]

is there runoff going into your septic tank somehow and filling it up? Sounds like a weird system to me. I'm no plumber tho

 

[Lizardman]

Drill a hole in the bottom of your 90 degree bend circus. That should fix the problem. Make sure the drilled hole is on the outside of your house of course.

 

[ultravox]

Septic tanks are enclosed concrete structures with a pipe going into a weeping bed which is just a mound of layered dirt and crushed gravel. For the the weeping bed to be full would take the whole septic tank being full first then all the earth on the weeping bed to be saturated....an unlikely secenario since the water runs off the mound . From the mound to the toilet is basically hermatic right thgrough to the sinks and toilet with the other open end being the weeping bed.

 

[ultravox]

Originally posted by: Lizardman
Drill a hole in the bottom of your 90 degree bend circus. That should fix the problem. Make sure the drilled hole is on the outside of your house of course.

The "circus" is inbetween the walls ......I don't need sewage emptying inbetween the walls now do I ?

 

[BIGk]

phil MCcrackin

 

[Lizardman]

Haha, no you dont. Where does the pipe vent to?

 

[ultravox]

it vents in the walls and no we have never ever had odour problems

 

[Lizardman]

Ok, I was thinking that somehow the pipe was fillling up with a lot of water and causing problems in the vent. I guess its not really exposed to rain if its just in the walls then.

 

[Armitage]

It really sounds like a venting problem, though I'm not sure why it would occur just when it rains. Are you sure the field isn't saturated as well? No oder or softspots out there?

What you describe for the venting would most likely be illegal in most places in the states. Nothing like having your home blown off its foundation by a sewer gas explosion.

You say this PVC "loop" is in the walls? Or in the attic? The only thing I can think is that somehow water is getting into that loop and preventing the vent from working - hence Lizardmans suggestion to drill a hole in the bottom of it.

I'd put in a proper vent. How big in diameter is the pipe in this loop? The agregate size of the vent should equal the size of the drain leaving the house, which is probably 4" - that sounds like a damn big loop.

 

[Analog]

Wow, that's a wierd one. I have a similar house in the country, with a septic. I've never heard of that type of venting, especially in the walls. I would be worried about sewer gas in the walls, to say the least, or even condensation in the walls - I'm not sure how they pulled this off! I would vent it like 99.9% of all the others, out the roof. What's so bad about that? Ours works great, no issues.

I don't think your tank is "full", if it was hydraulically full, then you would see it in other drains around your house, especially if you have drains that are at a lower elevation from your toilet (like in the laundry room or shower). You would have sewer water spurting out those drains, and you don't.

Get the right vent, and be done with it!!!

 

[ultravox]

I think the name "vent" is actually a misnomer. There aren't any sewer gasses escaping from them just air. They seem to take in air rather than expell it. There is an opening in the gyp-rock right around a beam that I never got around to capping an be assured there are no foul gases escaping from there. We could smell it throughout the house if there was. I have total confidence in their efficiency. Since this only happens when it rains big-time I tend to think it has something to do with the ground, saturation,and/or back pressure this could cause in the drainage. If the tank or whole system was over-filled and the weeping bed saturated the drains would all back up and the toilets wouldn't flush at all. Maybe we need some physics experts to answer this ...
As for venting through the roof .... after paying big $$$ for a metal roof one tends to not look for ways to put holes in it. Warranties are nulled if the metal has been cut.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: ultravox
Warranties are nulled if the metal has been cut.

warranties are fine as long as the pentrations are done per the manufacturers recommendation.

it would appear somehow you are getting a vapor lock on the vent. I'm having trouble visualizing exactly what you had done though....draw us a picture.

 

[Rastus]

Sh!t goes downhill and payday's every other friday.

 

[Sluggo]

Sounds like an Auto Vent is installed, although I really dont know why he would put a loop and terminate it inside the wall, they are generally terminated in the attic. I assume he was trying to save on piping by not running them up the whole 30 feet to the attic space. They should be where they are accessible, because they can and do fail.

As stated it sounds more like a venting issue.

Try and think of any way rainwater could be getting into your system and overloading the venting system. Maybe a vent from your heater leaks and gets into the condensation system from the drip pan on the furnace.

Do you have drainpipes around your foundation that drain into your septic?

Any guttering that drains into the septic? Any basement floor drains or other below grade drains that could be filling with a high water table?

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: ultravox
I think the name "vent" is actually a misnomer. There aren't any sewer gasses escaping from them just air. They seem to take in air rather than expell it.

Yes, that's the point - it isn't so much to let sewer gas escape (though it does that also) but rather so the water can easily go down the drains without sucking the traps dry (which would let sewer gas into the house). If you don't ever smell anything at the end of the vent I suspect it isn't working properly.

There is an opening in the gyp-rock right around a beam that I never got around to capping an be assured there are no foul gases escaping from there. We could smell it throughout the house if there was. I have total confidence in their efficiency. Since this only happens when it rains big-time I tend to think it has something to do with the ground, saturation,and/or back pressure this could cause in the drainage. If the tank or whole system was over-filled and the weeping bed saturated the drains would all back up and the toilets wouldn't flush at all. Maybe we need some physics experts to answer this ...

A proper vent has to be sloped the same way a drain is sloped so any water that gets in - rain, condensation, etc. can keep going right down the drain. Unless this loop you mentioned is horizontal I don't see how it could be sloped properly. Which means you could have water trapped in the low point - possibly via th rain somehow, and it prevents the vent from operating properly until it evaporates, or gets sucked out of the low spot.

In any case, I have never seen or heard of an arrangement like you describe. It doesn't make sense from a physics standpoint or a code standpoint. But I'm not a plumber - just a DIYer that has read up on and installed a drain & vent system that made it past the inspectors.

If this guy screwed this up to the degree is sounds like, I wouldn't count on the rest of the drain/vent being installed properly - which may be why its just that one toilet that has trouble - every fixture needs it's own vent - which ussualy ties into a central stack.. Sized properly, oriented properly, and within x distance of the fixture. Can you see the plumbing that comes out of that toilet?

As for venting through the roof .... after paying big $$$ for a metal roof one tends to not look for ways to put holes in it. Warranties are nulled if the metal has been cut.

There has to be a way to run a hole through the roof without voiding the warranty - there are to many things that have to penetrate the roof - vents, chimneys, sometimes electric service, etc. But if you're really hard up on that, I think there are ways to vent it out of the eaves or gables as well.

 

[ultravox]

Toilets are one above the other .
Example of top most toilet when standing below: all the drain pipes (3" I think) empty into a main 4". Below where they all come together is a Y joint pointed upwards. From that Y-joint there are a series of 45's and short staright pieces pointing downwards to run another 3" pipe downwards parallel to the main 4". One of those series of 45's and straight pieces has an upward extension going higher than the y-joint and capped with a pressure release vent and the parallel downward pipe goes down about 5' then it 90 degrees into a horizontal going straight for 3 feet then another bend bring it up then another to join it with the vented cap. It more or less just creates a square shape with a protubence capped with a vent. There should be no water in there at all I think and if you could see it you would understand how it would work. The sytem is completely indoors and I can only smell a faint odour coming from a basement drain in the spring only for some reason..
Since this happens only during haevy rain I am leaning more towards some atmospheric anomaly that causes a vaporlock of sorts possible because of the weeping bed draining less efficiantly ...I don't know. It flushes well 99% of the time and during heavy rains the toilets gurgle after a flush ...and the vents suck in or expel air audibly.
Again about the roof .... I was going to do a vent the conventional way but after I checked out the awful looking boots they sold for covering drain vents and knowing it would be prominently visible on my barn-shapped roof at the first pitch I decided to go with what my "guy" suggested and used for his house . He is a very experienced house-builder and did all the plumbing for himself and had no problems with this sort of venting. My roof doesn't have any holes cut in it except for a small nick where the chimney runs through the overhang. Just nice bright red metal all over.

 

[Armitage]

Need a diagram - I didn't follow that at all. But it does sound like the vent is to far from at least one of the toilets, which alone could cause the problm you're seeing - though I don't know why it would just be when it rains.

 

[ultravox]

OK >>>I'll see what I can do for a diagram ...stay tuned .
BTW I had inspectors up the @ss here while building. Not only from the mortgage people but from every agency you can imagine so I know everything was acceptable code-wise.

 

[ultravox]

Yes only when it rains and a heavy rain at that. Doesn't do it if its just raining lightly. I'll draw a diagram and post it tomorrow. It's late here and I'l have to get a ladder to have a better look at the contraption first.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: ultravox
This is more of an annoyance than a problem but here goes ....

I have a house ...3 stories with a metal roof and a septic tank since I'm out in the country. The weeping bed is about 4ft above ground and up to specs.
When the "contractor" who built the house it was "helping" me do the plumbing he was very hesitant to put a hole in the roof for the vent pipes. He said that for his own home rather than putting a vent through the roof he made a loop of PVC pipe with a vent valve on the end and he said it works as well as the vented roof pipes. It was a sort of contraption with four 90 degree joints and straight pieces making a square and a piece going straight up with the vent-valve on the end. There must be about 12 ft of PVC in there.
Now here's the annoyance. Whenever it rains hard my toilets flush as if they're blocked, that is the water rises pretty high in the bowl before draining and sometimes they gurgle . The vent valves go crazy sometimes releasing air even when there is no flushing. I know the septic tank is not full because it's done this since day one (3 yrs ago) so I figured it must be something with atmospheric pressure or something. What I need to know is if it really is my vent sytem that's causing this or is there something wrong with the septic tank.
Thew toilets never overflow but it is rather disquieting to see the water come close to the edge of the bowl or to hear the vents gurgling for no reason in the middle of he night.

OMG!

Ignore what he wants and put the vents in properly. If that means calling in a plumber the so be it.

Code requires a proper vent. Air pressure helps flow and removes the nasty smell.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: ultravox
OK >>>I'll see what I can do for a diagram ...stay tuned .
BTW I had inspectors up the @ss here while building. Not only from the mortgage people but from every agency you can imagine so I know everything was acceptable code-wise.

Really? Now I'm really curious. AFAIK you've got 3 problems, mabe 4

- agregate vent size to small (3" vent vs. 4" drain)
- you can use an air admitance valve - but there must still be a vent to the outside somewhere in the system.
- The vent must always slope toward the drain
- The vent arrangement on those toilets doesn't sound right

Again, I'm not plumber, so I could be completely off. That's just what I remember from the codebook I looked at when I did mine.

 

[ultravox]

Wow ....I'm sorry I never got back to this thread. It stopped raining and as ususal everyuthing came back to normal and I forgot about this on-going discusssion.
I couldn't find a way to get a half-decent diagram out anyway because for one the piping is now only slightly visible. I can only see the main drain with the extension upon which sits the vent cap. I know it piqued your curiosity but I have complete faith in the venting as proved by the fact that once it's no longer raining everything has returned to normal. The toilets flush as they should and the vents are silent. This is what led me to ask the question about atmospheric pressures etc. If the vents were inadequate, the toilets wouldn't flush onor would any of the drains work.This is not the case as I've mentioned numerous times.
When it rains ....isn't there a low or high pressure area over us ? I wonder if this could possibly effect the venting or drainage.

@Sluggo: Yes the link to the auto vent is what I have The vent is quite accesable because of the I never capped the protrubence ....er bulge that a pipe makes into the room. I do hear it venting so i've no way of know wether it works correctly or not. But agin it works unless it's raining and even then the toilets flush albeit slowly. I don't think he was saving on pipe because I paid and supplied all materials for the job.
There is no way that the vent piping could be infiltraded by water . Everything is indoors and inside walls.
There is one drain in the basement which actually is main floor. The drainage around the foundation is drained towards the ditch in front of the house. Interesting question about the below grade drains I have only one and sometimes in the spring I have noticed odours from it. I don't remember what it looked like before they poured the floor