I need a liberal to explain Kerry's plan for Iraq to me.....i don't get it...

[heartsurgeon]

I need a intelligent explaination of what exactly Kerry's plan for Iraq is.

What he stated in the debate was he was going to
1) call a summit of all the allies and neighbors
2) train more Iraqi policemen "better"
3) hold "freer and fairer" elections

My problem with this is as follows:
1a) Kerry has called our current allies a coallition of the "bribed and the coerced". These are the countries already supplying troops. I don't know why they would want to send more after Kerry is elected. Seems counter-intuitive, not to mention politically unwise to send more trrops to participate in what Kerry has described repeatedly as the "wrong war"

1b)German and France has declared (i can get the link/quote if you insist, but you can google it as well as i can) that they will not send troops into Iraq under any circumstances.
1c)Arab neighbors? Well which one off them is going to send troops...Iran (you could argue they already have!), Syria?, Saudi Arabia? The Turks are not welcomed by the Kurds.

who exactly is going to send troops? i can't name a single country that would respond in the manner Kerry would like to believe.

ok, so we hold a "summit" and nobody ante's up any troops...that sends a great message to the insurgents....plus Kerry has variably stated the troop pullout will occur over 6 months, one year, and now 4 years....

all this would embolden the insurgents.

2)Who is going to "train" these police officers in a "smarter" manner...i've heard the Irish and the French mentioned by Kerry people as the ones to do the training....you realy think that's going to make a difference???the french???

3)Who is going to make the elections "freer and safer" - U.S. troops and the current goverment.....same troops, same goverment...what's going to change...send over Jimmy Carter to monitor the elections??
Not only that, but Kerry has called Alawi a puppet...He's gonnna have to work with the guy.

I just don't see that Kerry has any plan to do anything in iRaq..

tell me what Kerry's plan is.
tell me how he is going to accomplish each of the parts of his "plan" and how that's going to make any difference.

I would ask the usual suspects not to post in this thread, because i already know your not going to answer the questions i've asked in any meanful manner...you know who you are....

 

[cmp1223]

I'm for Kerry, but I agree with you, his plan is not drastically different from what BUsh has laid out. His main arguement is that he will give fresh credability to the US, which may or may not affect ally relations. I really dont see what one could do i Iraq. Much of the country is out of our control. Sadam was actually helpful in keeping other terrorist or competing opponents in check, now much of Iraq is a terrorist safe haven. There is no way we can kill them, becasue they ARE the iraqis, they are fighting against us. The more we kill, the more enimies we have. 40000 of the 100000 police will be fired for incompetency or because they pose a security threat. I hope Kerry would also support a massive intelligence reform. From Colin's speech to the number of troops estimated to the whole idea of "liberators," US intelligence is anything but

So I guess Kerry's main argument is: Hey, i dont have all the answers, but do you really want the guy that started this mess to try to solve it?

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

I think the main message from Kerry is that he won't start any more blunders like Iraq if he gets elected. NOBDOY really has a solution for Iraq at the moment, it was a mistake to go in and now it is going to be very difficult to get out of there. Of course no candidate will concede to this simple fact.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: cmp1223
So I guess Kerry's main argument is: Hey, i dont have all the answers, but do you really want the guy that started this mess to try to solve it?

I think that's spot on. However, I think it's misleading for him to say he'll bring in troops from other countries.

Does anyone know of a place to get statistics estimating the of insurgents fighting over time? Or casualties on both sides with time? If so, it would be appreciated.

 

[Steeplerot]

He was saying Bush has no credibility. noone trusts him except the few brainwashed by his own propaganda machine here in the states, The world will stand behind USA once again once the crook and liar of a so-called president we have is gone.
Bush is the greatest threat to Peace and is helping the terrorists grow.
Kerry will get our friends back and set things back to more normal terms with the rest of the world (like not hated and mistrusted as Bush has made us.)
But if you have spallowed the Bush kool-aid for long enough you are so out of touch with the rest of your fellow americans and the rest of our planet you would not see this.
(Hopefully you can soon our saftey depends on his crazy cowboy ass being gone from representing our country.)

 

[Luck JF]

Bush said today that "My opponent's plan for Iraq is to call a summit. Now I've been to alot of summits and no dictator was ever deposed and no terrorist was ever brought to justice by a meeting".
We talked for years and years and had summits and meetings and that failed. Action is what we needed. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Steeplerot]

Action is good but Bush's actions time and time again have been a failure.
Go look at what is going on with Iraq?
No new ideas from Bush just more buzzwords while more of our people die.
He needs a long vacation since his job is so "Tough"
one even longer then the one he took while in office.

 

[Todd33]

People complain when Kerry doesn't give details, then they complain when he does. You don't like the guy, we know already.

What GW's plan? Mass chaos and "stay the course"?

 

[Luck JF]

I happen to think Iraq is going well. It's not going as well as it could have been had the terrorists not decided to make it their stand, yet it is going well considering that the forces of terror are making a big stand there. That is very convenient for us by the way.
If the terrorists were hiding in Iran right now, as I am sure many still are but at least the ones in Iraq we have a chance to bring to justice, we would not be able to get to them in Iran.
The fact that stockpiles of WMD were not found would have made the war unjustifiable right until the time that terrorists started fighting there. Once that happened
then it became a good thing for our overall strategy to have our troops there in a position to fight them.
Every time that another bombing happens in Iraq, George Bush's plan is further vindicated and more necessary to our overall war on terror.

 

[cmp1223]

Luck JF, your reasoning is plain wrong. The majority of insurgents fighting us in Iraq are not terrorists, in the sense that they have Al-Queda links or defined attack plans against America. They are "groups of folks" (as Bush calls them) that once were contained by Sadam, but now have been able to strengthen and ultimatley want to take over Iraq. Its not like all the terrorist have just flooded in Iraq, they are mearly an existing rogue army that wished to defeat the "occupiers"

 

[Luck JF]

Originally posted by: cmp1223
Luck JF, your reasoning is plain wrong. The majority of insurgents fighting us in Iraq are not terrorists, in the sense that they have Al-Queda links or defined attack plans against America. They are "groups of folks" (as Bush calls them) that once were contained by Sadam, but now have been able to strengthen and ultimatley want to take over Iraq. Its not like all the terrorist have just flooded in Iraq, they are mearly an existing rogue army that wished to defeat the "occupiers"

They blew up 35 Iraqi children the other day. Is that to resist the occupiers or terrorism? That is terrorism in my book which makes them terrorists. Iraqis can be terrorists too and obviously some of them are.

 

[classy]

His plan is very much different from Bush. For one he said he wants to train the Iraqi people quicker, so they can defend themselves. Thats why he criticized the President for not using the money to train the people. The work is not being done. He is really smart when he said he wants to hold a summit. And I really liked the part where he said he wants to have the allies help train the Iraqi troops as well. Bush and this administration is starting to set 14 "permament?" bases, which as he said gives the US a look of "ocuppiers", not "liberators". He said Bush has most the oil bases secured and not the borders. He stated going after the finances of these terrorists. John Kerry is right, we needed a very strong international alliance. And if anyone questions that, looked at the way Bush's father conducted the first war. By not allowing other people to make money off rebuilding contracts also sends the wrong message, as Bush puts it mixed messages. No doubt Bush has totally loused up this war and the goal should have been Bin Laden first. Kerry was completely truthful when he said Saddam would have been kept in check with on going inspections and who knows if another round of sanctions would not have worked. Unfortunately over 1000 dead soldiers and counting we will never know. Kerry's whole approach to fighting this war is so much clearer and well thought out. Did you miss the part where he talked Afghanistan being the central supplier of 75% of the world's opium? Just think of the how much better our country would be if we could cripple that industry.
John Kerry is light years ahead of Bush on making America safer.

And heart"less"surgeon you have intention on trying to get anything, cause your a drone.

 

[element]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
I think the main message from Kerry is that he won't start any more blunders like Iraq if he gets elected. NOBDOY really has a solution for Iraq at the moment, it was a mistake to go in and now it is going to be very difficult to get out of there. Of course no candidate will concede to this simple fact.

Actually Bush stated exactly that in the debate, that the work in Iraq is very difficult. And how do you figure Iraq was a blunder? Do you support Saddam or something? We removed an evil dictator from power, are now trianing Iraqis to run their own country, killed insurgents who could be future terrorists (yes they've proven they want to kill Americans by engaging our troops, has this fact eluded your pea brain?)

You say nobody has a solution for Iraq, Don't you mean nobody has a solution better than GWB? The solution in effect now is to train Iraqis to run their own nation and to develop it into a democracy. I know it pains you to see Kerry has no better plan but shouldn't it comfort you that Bush is doing the best possible under the circumstances?

 

[element]

Originally posted by: classy
His plan is very much different from Bush. For one he said he wants to train the Iraqi people quicker, so they can defend themselves. ....

Train them quicker? Quicker how? Start opening up Starbucks coffee houses and get them all on caffiene to do more work like cubical drones here?

No really what is Kerry's plan? What is he going to do tell the military how to train troops faster? That sounds laughable at best. Classy you sound like a retarded schoolchild with your idiotic remarks and personal attacks on Heartsurgeon. How did it feel when i just did it to you?

 

[maluckey]

12 years of debates netted nothing in Iraq except more than a few thousand tortured and killed then dumped into mass graves.

Let's debate some more Mr. Kerry. Let's ask France and the U.N. to help in the Sudan Mr. Kerry. Let's ask Russia to do ANYTHING about their situation other than bluster and bluff. Let's ask the U.N. before wiping our collective butts. Talking is all fine and good, but any history student knows that once talks fail to get the desired reults, there must be actions that speak to the masses or the target country.

Teddy Roosevelt had it right. "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" Methinks Mr. Kerry is speaking loudly, and is without a stick... or a spine.

 

[element]

Originally posted by: maluckey
12 years of debates netted nothing in Iraq except more than a few thousand tortured and killed then dumped into mass graves.

Let's debate some more Mr. Kerry. Let's ask France and the U.N. to help in the Sudan Mr. Kerry. Let's ask Russia to do ANYTHING about their situation other than bluster and bluff. Let's ask the U.N. before wiping our collective butts. Talking is all fine and good, but any history student knows that once talks fail to get the desired reults, there must be actions that speak to the masses or the target country.

Teddy Roosevelt had it right. "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" Methinks Mr. Kerry is speaking loudly, and is without a stick... or a spine.

Thank you! finally some sense.:beer: If only it weren't so sparse around here.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Kerry's real point was that Bush has so screwed up his international relations that the ONLY avenue available to the current US administration is to go it alone. Bush has no options left. He has 1 plan, with no exit strategy, and its not working well.

At least Kerry will try to rebuild a national community. One that was more or less destroyed by Bush and hope for the best. If our allies laugh at us, then its Bush's fault for how he handled everything pre-shock and awe.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: element

Originally posted by: classy
His plan is very much different from Bush. For one he said he wants to train the Iraqi people quicker, so they can defend themselves. ....

Train them quicker? Quicker how? Start opening up Starbucks coffee houses and get them all on caffiene to do more work like cubical drones here?

No really what is Kerry's plan? What is he going to do tell the military how to train troops faster? That sounds laughable at best. Classy you sound like a retarded schoolchild with your idiotic remarks and personal attacks on Heartsurgeon. How did it feel when i just did it to you?

Hey moron maybe you didnt see the debate. Kerry made the point and Bush didn't disagree that Bush had not used the money to train the troops like they were supposed too. He came crying back to Congress last week to ask to have the money transfered to be used. The only retards are all the knuckleheads like you who are mad cause Bush looked and sounded like a total jack@ss last night. That clown couldn't buy a clue and guess what neither can you. Now retarded that. And as for "heart murmur" its pretty obvious she is a republican drone, so to make a thread about he's trying to "get it" is a joke. He wouldn't be trying to get it, if it got him first. Now beat it you bunch of Bush babies. 😛

 

[classy]

PS quit whining. Maybe he'll win the next debate and show at least some 2nd grade intelligence when they debate next week on domestic issues. He's got a lot going for himself in that department :roll:

 

[element]

Originally posted by: classy

Originally posted by: element

Originally posted by: classy
His plan is very much different from Bush. For one he said he wants to train the Iraqi people quicker, so they can defend themselves. ....

Train them quicker? Quicker how? Start opening up Starbucks coffee houses and get them all on caffiene to do more work like cubical drones here?

No really what is Kerry's plan? What is he going to do tell the military how to train troops faster? That sounds laughable at best. Classy you sound like a retarded schoolchild with your idiotic remarks and personal attacks on Heartsurgeon. How did it feel when i just did it to you?

Hey moron maybe you didnt see the debate. Kerry made the point and Bush didn't disagree that Bush had not used the money to train the troops like they were supposed too. He came crying back to Congress last week to ask to have the money transfered to be used. The only retards are all the knuckleheads like you who are mad cause Bush looked and sounded like a total jack@ss last night. That clown couldn't buy a clue and guess what neither can you. Now retarded that. And as for "heart murmur" its pretty obvious she is a republican drone, so to make a thread about he's trying to "get it" is a joke. He wouldn't be trying to get it, if it got him first. Now beat it you bunch of Bush babies. 😛

You think you're pretty smart don't you? What you don't realize is you're completely wrong on every count you just rambled on about like a hurt immature little brat.

Kerry voted against the $87billion package for Iraq. Also Heart Surgeon isn't a she, he's a he, but I guess it comes as no surprise that mentally unbalanced little brat children like you didn't know that.

 

[arsbanned]

Bush has no credibility with the ROW (those who count anyway). Perhaps Kerry could turn things around. The U.S. cannot and should not "go it alone". At least Kerry HAS a plan, or has attempted to articulate one. Bush OTOH, mmm no. Unless his plan is "International Chaos".

 

[Steeplerot]

Bush reaffirmed his plan of armaggeddon. I could not see what else he could want from the mideast and giving the finger to the world.
He never even denied we were there for the oil!
At least Osama comes right out and says it. All Bush can do is uhhh uhhhh...

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: element

You think you're pretty smart don't you? What you don't realize is you're completely wrong on every count you just rambled on about like a hurt immature little brat.

Kerry voted against the $87billion package for Iraq. Also Heart Surgeon isn't a she, he's a he, but I guess it comes as no surprise that mentally unbalanced little brat children like you didn't know that.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaa................looked at you whining like a baby. Hey why don't you get a warm bottle, let someone burp your babbling tail and put you to bed. 😛

 

[jteef]

I look to one of bush's first big international crisis' as president. When china crashed into our plane and they held our crew for a couple of weeks. Today if something like that happened again, bush has shown me that he has the guts do what it takes to get our people back and preserve american power. Kerry might well get the troops back back too, but he'd probably give them hawaii in the deal.

 

[Shortass]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Bush reaffirmed his plan of armaggeddon. I could not see what else he could want from the mideast and giving the finger to the world.
He never even denied we were there for the oil!
At least Osama comes right out and says it. All Bush can do is uhhh uhhhh...

Wtf are you talking about? Osama?

Originally posted by: maluckey
12 years of debates netted nothing in Iraq except more than a few thousand tortured and killed then dumped into mass graves.

Let's debate some more Mr. Kerry. Let's ask France and the U.N. to help in the Sudan Mr. Kerry. Let's ask Russia to do ANYTHING about their situation other than bluster and bluff. Let's ask the U.N. before wiping our collective butts. Talking is all fine and good, but any history student knows that once talks fail to get the desired reults, there must be actions that speak to the masses or the target country.

Teddy Roosevelt had it right. "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" Methinks Mr. Kerry is speaking loudly, and is without a stick... or a spine.

Agreed. Oh how I wish a Roosevelt would enter politics and could equal in excellence either Teddy or FDR.

Originally posted by: steeplerot
He was saying Bush has no credibility. noone trusts him except the few brainwashed by his own propaganda machine here in the states, The world will stand behind USA once again once the crook and liar of a so-called president we have is gone.
Bush is the greatest threat to Peace and is helping the terrorists grow.
Kerry will get our friends back and set things back to more normal terms with the rest of the world (like not hated and mistrusted as Bush has made us.)
But if you have spallowed the Bush kool-aid for long enough you are so out of touch with the rest of your fellow americans and the rest of our planet you would not see this.
(Hopefully you can soon our saftey depends on his crazy cowboy ass being gone from representing our country.)

WTF!? The world, for the most part, doesn't care about this war. The world won't all of a sudden fly into rank behind us if Kerry becomes the president, and as a leader I'm pretty sure much of the world will try to take advantage of him as he appears easily bendable.

"Bush is the greatest threat to Peace and is helping the terrorists grow. "

Ahh, exactly! By occupying a hostile country in which hundreds of Saudis and other foreign terrorists are entering and attempting to dismantle the work to reconstruct the country, we're allowing the growth of terrorists. We're leaving behind weapons for them to use, and we are letting them kill our soldiers to improve their moral.

...By taking an active stance against a ruthless government and fighting terrorist organizations and random civilians with weapons, we're effectively slowing down the terrorist population. If we ever manage to create a stable democracy (or whatever other non-ruthless and unfair govt they may want) in Iraq, that poses a serious threat to terrorists. If the work done there is accoimplished and they somehow flourish, the impoverished people of surrounding countries may rise up and attempt to do the same thing for themselves, much like France and other European countries did after the American Revolution.

I missed a few things I would have liked to argue, but it seems on both sides much of the arguing is over uninformed guesses. Mine might be too, its hard to tell when that's what you believe, and I know I don't know 1/2 of what's out there, but some of the things some people are saying here is ridiculous.